5x Class 153 conversion to bike and baggage vans for Scotrail

[Bletchleyite]

App based at seat ordering

Apps are NOT the way forward unless there is a single National Rail ordering app. Mobile web might work, but it's still a faff and the signal on the WHL is poor. Better just to have the steward come around and take orders like they do with the present trolley.

 

[Altnabreac]

If the ex-153 centre cars are being refitted internally, as presumably they will be, they would give an opportunity to try something like this. They could also potentially be fitted with an area of better seating (bays around tables, better window alignment) and marketed as e.g. "tourist saloon" at a supplementary fare. That might give a low-cost way to test the market for better-spec trains allowing higher pricing in advance of new stock being procured at sometime in the future.

I don't see a market at this stage for the supplement, better to just provide high quality as standard at what should be a marginal extra cost when building new stock as part of a planned upgrade. Improved catering could be trialled via the 153s though. I just think the trolley system severely limits what can be offered to passengers and removes an incentive for customers to use it.

If I buy an Irn Bru at Morrisons in Fort William before I board I can choose a cold one from the back of the fridge. If I get it from the trolley it will cost more and be room temperature. If I decide I want a second one at Crianlarich at the moment I wouldn't bother but if I could tap an app on my phone and know it will shortly appear at my seat, cold from a fridge and with a glass full of ice then that becomes A: worth paying a premium for and B: better than what I can buy before I board. No extra staff cost compared to a trolley service and as the catering staff member I'd rather be doing a bit more walking back and forward taking people things they want than having to drag the huge trolley around trying to interest people in warm lager and sad looking sandwiches. Just requires a bit of imagination and an up front investment in kit.

 

[Altnabreac]

Apps are NOT the way forward unless there is a single National Rail ordering app. Mobile web might work, but it's still a faff and the signal on the WHL is poor. Better just to have the steward come around and take orders like they do with the present trolley.

The app doesn't need to connect to external internet just communicate with the on train router.

But no reason it wouldn't be supplemented by at seat ordering as well.

 

[DelW]

It's a nice idea, but I don't think the majority of people would be up for paying supplements, and if they're not, it makes a section of seating off-limits, so you'd have part of the train empty and the rest full, so reproducing the problems you get on routes with an over-provision of First Class. In any case, the 156 window/seat alignment is about the best you'll find anywhere.

My thought for that would be that they would be bookable in advance, e.g. by tour parties or family groups, but if there were spare seats 'on the day', these could be upgraded to at say £5 - £10 supplement per seat, much like weekend first upgrades are sold now.
I doubt it'll happen though, the rail industry is too conservative for that (and it might not be practical anyway of course).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The app doesn't need to connect to external internet just communicate with the on train router.

But no reason it wouldn't be supplemented by at seat ordering as well.

So I could choose between faffing to connect to wi-fi which might not allow me Internet access then trying to download an app, or I could wait until the bloke appears and open my gob?

I do use the 'Spoons app, but that's only because they don't have table service as standard (and are normally heavily understaffed at the bar). If they did I doubt I'd use it.

 

[Journeyman]

Why are you consistenly focused on Locos? How many times have I spoke of the multiple unit option. Please re-read my posts on suitable multiple units.

I'm not, you're the one that keeps bringing it up!

HSTs are coming to ScotRail. Get over that!

I think it's a stupid decision, but hey. It's going ahead, and will probably end badly when the first time one fails on the Highland Main Line.

The 73 project was also for a service that looses money yet it went ahead. I thought they were the wrong choice, but hey It happened. That's right here on Planet Earth. Maybe it should have been in concert with WHL stock renewal?

Again, I think it was the wrong choice, but as I've said time and time again, it wasn't WHL specific. Those locos are used on three Sleeper routes. Yes, they lose money, but the Scottish Government have agreed to fund them, and the Inverness and Aberdeen routes are less loss-making than the WHL, so it was easier to justify. The poor results from the rebuild will almost certainly put people off attempting to do something like that again, so once more - where are your WHL locos going to come from?

And how do you propose we finance your bespoke WHL loco?

Is this yet another case of someone who has used the line once a blue moon knows better than the regulars? See that link for others thoughts on the matter.....we've been over this!

I use it quite regularly, actually, I live near Edinburgh and I've got family in Oban. Last time I used it was in May, to go to Corrour.

Your American tourists probably were loving it...The Scenery! Do you think they boarded and thought "my what a wonderful train this is....wish we had seats like this back home" - Doubtful!

But in saying that, you've just proven that the type of train is WAY down people's priority list in choosing whether to make the journey. You're right, they came for the scenery.

Just watch this space in the future when it comes to Cal Mac.

You keep saying that. What do you mean?

 

[Journeyman]

I reckon you'd also easily flog posh meals to coach party tourists.

Certainly agree there, if you could find a way to deliver it.

 

[GrimShady]

Apps are NOT the way forward unless there is a single National Rail ordering app. Mobile web might work, but it's still a faff and the signal on the WHL is poor. Better just to have the steward come around and take orders like they do with the present trolley.

Agreed. When it comes to the older generation especially. What if you don't have a smart phone?

The Weatherspoons in pub app is nice, it takes me longer to use that than it does to order food at the bar.

 

[Journeyman]

There's one manufacturer who will happily do that at a vaguely reasonable price, of course, as they do it all the time for the Swiss narrow gauge lines...and that would be the same one that has expertise in building "proper" scenic vehicles e.g. with windows all the way up to the ceiling - Stadler.

True, but you'd massively improve the economics by designing a common train for all the Scenic routes in Scotland, and I think that's what will happen.

 

[Altnabreac]

Agreed. When it comes to the older generation especially. What if you don't have a smart phone?

The Weatherproofness in pub app is nice, it takes me longer to use that than it does to order food at the bar.

Then you can go back to the 18th century...

 

[Journeyman]

Then you can go back to the 18th century...

Goatherder alert!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Goatherder alert!

Crikey, is this uk.railway?

 

[Journeyman]

Crikey, is this uk.railway?

I've been known to frequent that group. I had to laugh when one of my kids started dating the daughter of a goat farmer.

 

[GrimShady]

I'm not, you're the one that keeps bringing it up!



I think it's a stupid decision, but hey. It's going ahead, and will probably end badly when the first train fails on the Highland Main Line.



Again, I think it was the wrong choice, but as I've said time and time again, it wasn't WHL specific. Those locos are used on three Sleeper routes. Yes, they lose money, but the Scottish Government have agreed to fund them, and the Inverness and Aberdeen routes are less loss-making than the WHL, so it was easier to justify. The poor results from the rebuild will almost certainly put people off attempting to do something like that again, so once more - where are your WHL locos going to come from?



I use it quite regularly, actually, I live near Edinburgh and I've got family in Oban. Last time I used it was in May, to go to Corrour.



But in saying that, you've just proven that the type of train is WAY down people's priority list in choosing whether to make the journey. You're right, they came for the scenery.



You keep saying that. What do you mean?

I didn't think I was, merely pointing out units aren't the only option. The 73 program could have been looked at in the broader spectrum as part of the CS and Scenic Lines overhaul. Too much fragmentation these days for that kind of planning. We're going round in circles here mate lol, shall we dump the locomotive talk?

As a stop gap solution I thought the HST was better than putting up with another decade of 170s. I'm still looking forward in my travels up north in a ScotRail MK3 from QS. I'n all honesty 68s and Mk5s TPE style may have been a better choice, but let's not go down the loco arguement again.

Time will tell if the HST cuts it mechanically. East Coast HST don't seem to have any bother up there and have been I use regularly, I could be wrong I'm not up to date with the failure rate of LNER HSTs.

True, if you want to see the views then there's only limited choice, can we enhance that experience, maybe maximise the profit margin? Sure we can!

 

[GrimShady]

Certainly agree there, if you could find a way to deliver it.

Agreed too!

 

[gingertom]

There's one manufacturer who will happily do that at a vaguely reasonable price, of course, as they do it all the time for the Swiss narrow gauge lines...and that would be the same one that has expertise in building "proper" scenic vehicles e.g. with windows all the way up to the ceiling - Stadler.

plus the diesel engines are in a self contained pod so no underfloor engines to shake rattle and roll the occupants. Do they do them with gangways?

 

[GrimShady]

Then you can go back to the 18th century...

Seriously? Lol!

You tell that to all the old dears!

 

[Bletchleyite]

plus the diesel engines are in a self contained pod so no underfloor engines to shake rattle and roll the occupants. Do they do them with gangways?

I haven't seen one (SBB don't do gangways), but I think in principle they will do what you want.

 

[Journeyman]

I didn't think I was, merely pointing out units aren't the only option. The 73 program could have been looked at in the broader spectrum as part of the CS and Scenic Lines overhaul. Too much fragmentation these days for that kind of planning. We're going round in circles here mate lol, shall we dump the locomotive talk?

As a stop gap solution I thought the HST was better than putting up with another decade of 170s. I'm still looking forward in my travels up north in a ScotRail MK3 from QS. I'n all honesty 68s and Mk5s TPE style may have been a better choice, but let's not go down the loco arguement again.

Time will tell if the HST cuts it mechanically. East Coast HST don't seem to have any bother up there and have been I use regularly, I could be wrong I'm not up to date with the failure rate of LNER HSTs.

True, if you want to see the views then there's only limited choice, can we enhance that experience, maybe maximise the profit margin? Sure we can!

Haha, I think we're getting somewhere now!

If you read around on here, you'll see that the ScotRail HST project has gone decidedly pear-shaped, and while I agree it will be a nice train to travel on, the cost, delay and problems are beginning to prove it was a bad idea, and there's a limit to how much life you can extract out of a 40-year-old train. The LNER ones are quite reliable, but the GWR ones are the least reliable of the lot and break down, on average, twice as often. This does not bode well for the future, given that GWR almost certainly used this as an opportunity to give ScotRail the worst performers in their already badly-performing fleet.

I agree that yes, the experience can be enhanced, but it has to be done in a way that's actually sustainable, affordable and prioritises the things that people find important. No disrespect to your views intended, I just think that maybe you've got different priorities to a lot of other people. My work involves assessing various projects and ideas within the rail industry, so I know how eye-watering the cost of even fairly simple things can be, so on a line like the WHL, you have to look at small things that can generate the biggest return. Right now, the 153 centre vehicle project is a small step in the right direction. What happens at franchise renewal will be interesting, but I suspect we'll be looking at Civity or FLIRT units with a suitable interior. Honestly, those will transform the experience and people will love them, but it's hard to justify buying them until the 156s and 158s used across the Scenic lines finally conk out. Then, you can order enough to make some customisation financially viable, and set up a common maintenance and diagramming strategy. When you're only dealing with one line, with a very modest rolling stock requirement, doing those things is almost impossible to justify.

 

[haggishunter]

As a slight aside on the issue of connectivity, between Three and EE a pretty robust connection should be possible on the bulk of the line by the time the 156s go through refurb (or 158s drafted in).

Of course onboard catering ordering doesn’t require an internet connection and could be done through the captive portal which is used to logon to the WiFi.

Indeed there would be potential to use the onboard WiFi to provide info on the journey and surrounding areas as well.

The attached speed test was with an EE router in the middle of Rannoch Moor!

 

[Rick1984]

I'm not sure why anyone would order anything but a Flirt. They aren't an exotic luxury but a standard unit.

They can be used on Far North, Kyle Line, Borders, Stranraer, Dumfries, Oban and WHL.

I'd go for a high floor design to increase view with one low floor for accessibility and bikes. The one exotic bit would be a scenic coach.

Catering doesn't need to be fancy. Just something that gives proper cold drinks and hot snacks of good quality Scottish produce. And doesn't take up loads of space

 

[jopsuk]

I'm not sure why anyone would order anything but a Flirt. They aren't an exotic luxury but a standard unit.

Well, the business reason not to would be because the organisation (a future franchisee, Transport Scotland, a future nationalised Scotrail, who knows who it might be?) would put out an invitation to tender, and potentially suppliers other than Stadler may in future have a similar type of unit that meets the specifications required (which may well be quite different to the armchair fleet managers here) for a lower cost

 

[yorkie]

Just a reminder this thread is to discuss '5x Class 153 conversion to bike and baggage vans for Scotrail'.

If anyone wishes to discuss something else, please create a new thread, or use an existing thread, as appropriate.

Thanks

 

[GrimShady]

As Yorkie says...getting back to the 153. Surely by this stage ScotRail must have some sort or design ready for the internal spec by now?

A micro buffet would be sweet! Doesn't have to be much. Fridge, hot water machine, microwave and maybe some more storage space. The trolley gets emptied quiet quickly!

 

[haggishunter]

If the 158s do subsequently get introduced into the WHL, where does that leave the 153s? Would they have an effect on the performance of the 158s on the line?

 

[sprinterguy]

If the 158s do subsequently get introduced into the WHL, where does that leave the 153s? Would they have an effect on the performance of the 158s on the line?

I wouldn't have thought so: Line speeds are unlikely to change and 158s regularly work in tandem with 153s elsewhere in Britain.

 

[Journeyman]

As Yorkie says...getting back to the 153. Surely by this stage ScotRail must have some sort or design ready for the internal spec by now?

A micro buffet would be sweet! Doesn't have to be much. Fridge, hot water machine, microwave and maybe some more storage space. The trolley gets emptied quiet quickly!

Certainly at the very least some room for extra stock would be welcome. I've known the trolley to be stripped bare by the time we're ten minutes out of Glasgow on busy trains.

 

[jopsuk]

As Yorkie says...getting back to the 153. Surely by this stage ScotRail must have some sort or design ready for the internal spec by now?

They may well have.

Depends on how they want to play this, there's possibly no actual need for them to publicise the layout until the first day that a refurb one is rolled into Queen Street for a service

 

[GrimShady]

They may well have.

Depends on how they want to play this, there's possibly no actual need for them to publicise the layout until the first day that a refurb one is rolled into Queen Street for a service

True but shouldn't they be thinking about advertising it?

 

[jopsuk]

True but shouldn't they be thinking about advertising it?

They probably will, when they decide it is optimum to do so according to their business priorities and when they actually can introduce them. I appreciate you're all excited and all but... calm down, let things play out?