A depressingly familiar journey through broken Britain

[Parallel]

To be fair, this article could be written about a multitude of lines throughout the North, Midlands, Wales or the South West and it’d be accurate!

 

[paul1609]

To be fair, this article could be written about a multitude of lines throughout the North, Midlands, Wales or the South West and it’d be an accurate!

Try travelling along the southcoast. Through journeys have progressively been destroyed with more cuts to come. The 45 year old trains with no toilets have been withdrawn without replacement causing the stopping services to be cut. For the first 60 miles of a Worthing to Bristol journey you can squeeze on to a now all stations unit with mostly 3 plus 2 seating to Southampton where there's a sort of connection to standing in a life expired ex London Commuter 2 car dmu that hasn't been cleaned in the last 10 years.
We dream of the 158s being used on heavily subsidised routes in the north or the swanky new high speed trains trundling around cornish branch lines to speed the locals from their beachside mansions to their 2nd homes in London....

 

[stuu]

The article is also a good reminder that, despite the weasel words of Bojo and his ilk, England is run in the South, by the South and for the South.

Its nothing like that simple. England is "run" from crisis to crisis with no discernible plan at all. TfL's finances are terrible, there are short trains running and reduced timetables all over the place in the south too. It's fair to say its fallen from a better starting point than much of the north, but it's still going backwards.

Pretty much everything is getting worse, everywhere

 

[modernrail]

Its nothing like that simple. England is "run" from crisis to crisis with no discernible plan at all. TfL's finances are terrible, there are short trains running and reduced timetables all over the place in the south too. It's fair to say its fallen from a better starting point than much of the north, but it's still going backwards.

Pretty much everything is getting worse, everywhere

As a northerner who has been living in London for over 10 years, this is definitely true.

The Tory hubris about improving things in the north has come to 0 and things are in reverse from a low starting point and the DfT (Don’t f Touch another thing) seems to be determined to encourage a timetable in the south with more holes than a piece of Swiss cheese. Add on the constant drone of industrial dispute and I know people on inner London but outside the congestion zone that are switching to using the car.

As a metaphor for how reliable the UK is becoming for its citizens, the current railway is pretty spot on.

Try travelling along the southcoast. Through journeys have progressively been destroyed with more cuts to come. The 45 year old trains with no toilets have been withdrawn without replacement causing the stopping services to be cut. For the first 60 miles of a Worthing to Bristol journey you can squeeze on to a now all stations unit with mostly 3 plus 2 seating to Southampton where there's a sort of connection to standing in a life expired ex London Commuter 2 car dmu that hasn't been cleaned in the last 10 years.
We dream of the 158s being used on heavily subsidised routes in the north or the swanky new high speed trains trundling around cornish branch lines to speed the locals from their beachside mansions to their 2nd homes in London....

Whilst not really passing through population centres equivalent to the size of Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool and the many big towns in-between, I would agree that the South Coast route, even when running well, seems to slow on long distances. However, when you add in the London trains it does seem pretty well served capacity wise overall. You would never ever see a 2 carriage train on the main services - you literally see that frequently on Sheffield to Manchester.

Interesting that the stopping services seem to have been cut though.

 

[paul1609]

Whilst not really passing through population centres equivalent to the size of Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool and the many big towns in-between, I would agree that the South Coast route, even when running well, seems to slow on long distances. However, when you add in the London trains it does seem pretty well served capacity wise overall. You would never ever see a 2 carriage train on the main services - you literally see that frequently on Sheffield to Manchester.

Interesting that the stopping services seem to have been cut though.

That's a common misconception I'm afraid. Brighton to Cardiff as a route passes through the South Hampshire Conurbation (Portsmouth Southampton) the 7th largest by pop, Bristol 11th, Brighton Hove 15th, Cardiff 17th, Newport 26th. South Hampshire alone is nearly pushing Liverpool for 6th place whilst even lowly Newport sees off the likes of Derby. Short formed 2 car dmus on Portsmouth Cardiff are as common as the EMR service in the newspaper article quoted indeed there's lot of services only booked for 3.

 

[AndyW33]

The solution to this to me is simple, when the new intercity stock arrives at East Midlands send some of the seven car meridians for a refurbishment which would include removal or at least mothballing of the catering facilities and conversion of all first class to standard as well as a general cosmetic tidying up and conversion of one carriage to a high density one with lots of tip-up seats bike spaces and luggage storage. You then have intercity stock capable of giving its all on the faster stretches and providing enough capacity at most times of the day and week

I don't think the two remaining 7 car meridians would make much difference! The others were reduced in length to 5 car, with the 2 coaches released from each 7 car unit used to make 4 car units up to 5 car. So you'd need to re-form a lot of units to recreate 7 car sets, and for all we know, there may already be a customer in the offing for the 5 car sets as they stand now.

 

[merry]

Interesting to think that the 1900s "improvement" to the 5-coach loco-hauled hourly Manchester-Sheffiekd shuttle was to provide 2-car 15x units.

Incorporating that into new longer distance cross country services of course increased demand on the core section, but it tooka long time for services to be increased to 4-car.

Fast forward to today...my own somewhst random experience of the Hope Valley in the last 10-15 years has usually been full (sometimes overcrowded). Given this forms part of a longer route I have to agree with most of the cpntributors that capacity at least MAN - NOT is not sufficient, and has not been since the 1990s.
Recent experiences of EMR (of gamily members and myself) on both this and the London EMR routes has been of inadequate capacity, poor to apalling timekeeping, unreliable services, and a very poor on train offering (e.g. no sandwiches ever, only an inadequate snack trolley service on a main line express train).
Those who suggest this drives passengers away are right. As a railway enthusiast, even I think twice about using these EMR routes.
Comparison to the LNER ECML services (my default option going south or north) is 'chalk and cheese': yes, the ECML sometimes has issues but these seem more isolated. Quality of service and onboard facilities are just so much better (and tickets are usually cheaper too).
I would say that EMR have a lot of work to do to bring their intercity offering even up to an 'OK' standard.
And to those who say it's not EMR who have underinvested long term, most passengers don't care. EMR are the customer face, and DFT being behind the decisions is not important to the average passenger. They just want a seat on a reasonably punctual train with sufficient facilities for a long journey. Not actually a lot to ask, really, but both the Liverpool-Norwich core, and the London routes, seem long term unable to deliver.

Oops, yes, a bit of a rant. Hope it is relevant!

 

[Mat17]

Interesting to think that the 1900s "improvement" to the 5-coach loco-hauled hourly Manchester-Sheffiekd shuttle was to provide 2-car 15x units.

Incorporating that into new longer distance cross country services of course increased demand on the core section, but it tooka long time for services to be increased to 4-car.

Fast forward to today...my own somewhst random experience of the Hope Valley in the last 10-15 years has usually been full (sometimes overcrowded). Given this forms part of a longer route I have to agree with most of the cpntributors that capacity at least MAN - NOT is not sufficient, and has not been since the 1990s.
Recent experiences of EMR (of gamily members and myself) on both this and the London EMR routes has been of inadequate capacity, poor to apalling timekeeping, unreliable services, and a very poor on train offering (e.g. no sandwiches ever, only an inadequate snack trolley service on a main line express train).
Those who suggest this drives passengers away are right. As a railway enthusiast, even I think twice about using these EMR routes.
Comparison to the LNER ECML services (my default option going south or north) is 'chalk and cheese': yes, the ECML sometimes has issues but these seem more isolated. Quality of service and onboard facilities are just so much better (and tickets are usually cheaper too).
I would say that EMR have a lot of work to do to bring their intercity offering even up to an 'OK' standard.
And to those who say it's not EMR who have underinvested long term, most passengers don't care. EMR are the customer face, and DFT being behind the decisions is not important to the average passenger. They just want a seat on a reasonably punctual train with sufficient facilities for a long journey. Not actually a lot to ask, really, but both the Liverpool-Norwich core, and the London routes, seem long term unable to deliver.

Oops, yes, a bit of a rant. Hope it is relevant!

I totally agree. I used the Regional Railways 158s service from Sheffield-Manchester on many a Saturday in the early 90s and full and standing wasn't an unusual phenomenon even then. The loco hauled sets may have been slower but they certainly had more capacity.

 

[Western Sunset]

I remember sitting comfortably in a nice spacious, warm, Mk1 on an electrified railway between Sheffield and Manchester in 1969...

 

[yorksrob]

I remember sitting comfortably in a nice spacious, warm, Mk1 on an electrified railway between Sheffield and Manchester in 1969...

Ooh, but mk1's are dangerous, akin to hand gliding over a volcano or climbing Everest in flip-flops don't'y'know.

I can sympathise with some of the points about other routes, including Coastway services. The whole railway is being let slide. My family became quite happy using the train in the ten years or so prior to Covid, to go on holiday, leisure trips etc. For reasons of reliability and cost, they are increasingly turning to coach and bus.

Whatsitsname in the DfT agreed with various industry figures that the DfT should receive revenue as well as costs (instead of the treasury) months ago, yet still his bosses in the Government do nothing. He may as well resign.

 

[HSTEd]

Wasn't the Liverpool to Norwich train planned to end at some point?
Has coronavirus killed that plan?

I remember sitting comfortably in a nice spacious, warm, Mk1 on an electrified railway between Sheffield and Manchester in 1969...

Ultimately you can blame the "social railway" for forcing the retention of the Hope Valley line.

 

[dk1]

Wasn't the Liverpool to Norwich train planned to end at some point?
Has coronavirus killed that plan?

One plan was to separate the route as TPX were possibly taking over the western side. It was just one of several options. The pandemic had nothing to do with it.

 

[LowLevel]

Wasn't the Liverpool to Norwich train planned to end at some point?
Has coronavirus killed that plan?


Ultimately you can blame the "social railway" for forcing the retention of the Hope Valley line.

It was scheduled to the point that TPE started recruiting the train crew and then was cancelled to avoid training needs during COVID.

Since then TPE has imploded and Liverpool - Norwich appears to be remaining intact, except as I mentioned with the possibility of longer trains featuring 3 car 170s working to Norwich coupling to 2 car sets on some diagrams at Nottingham to increase capacity on the East side too.

The more persistent rumour nowadays is actually the transfer of South TPE to EMR instead to allow TPE to focus on sorting out the North route.

 

[dk1]

It was scheduled to the point that TPE started recruiting the train crew and then was cancelled to avoid training needs during COVID.

Since then TPE has imploded and Liverpool - Norwich appears to be remaining intact, except as I mentioned with the possibility of longer trains featuring 3 car 170s working to Norwich coupling to 2 car sets on some diagrams at Nottingham to increase capacity on the East side too.

The more persistent rumour nowadays is actually the transfer of South TPE to EMR instead to allow TPE to focus on sorting out the North route.

But EMR also started setting up a depot at Lime Street with an ex-colleague of mine recruited to see it through. This too got stopped.

Not sure what the big issue with training during the pandemic was. We actually beat previous records for training drivers at GA throughout that time.

 

[LowLevel]

But EMR also started setting up a depot at Lime Street with an ex-colleague of mine recruited to see it through. This too got stopped.

That was after. It was found to be cheaper to carry on working it from Nottingham so it was binned, especially now TPE run a (slightly) earlier and later service to/from Liverpool. 5M06 isn't as troublesome in the real world as it is to some people on here in their own minds (no worse than the many crews every day taxied between Nottingham/Derby and Crewe to start/finish the service, anyway!).

Again though, the internal rumour mill suggests it's a possibility it could be resurrected.

 

[dk1]

That was after. It was found to be cheaper to carry on working it from Nottingham so it was binned, especially now TPE run a (slightly) earlier and later service to/from Liverpool. 5M06 isn't as troublesome in the real world as it is to some people on here in their own minds (no worse than the many crews every day taxied between Nottingham/Derby and Crewe to start/finish the service, anyway!).

Again though, the internal rumour mill suggests it's a possibility it could be resurrected.

And keeps route refreshing up to date on diversionary lines no doubt too

 

[LowLevel]

And keeps route refreshing up to date on diversionary lines no doubt too

Yep. On my recent journeys on it it has run via Attenborough/Toton Centre, Derby, Marple and Eccles. Apart from via Barrow Hill which has service trains that's all of the diversions.

 

[dk1]

Yep. On my recent journeys on it it has run via Attenborough/Toton Centre, Derby, Marple and Eccles. Apart from via Barrow Hill which has service trains that's all of the diversions.

Sounds a track bashers damp dream.

 

[urbophile]

Ultimately you can blame the "social railway" for forcing the retention of the Hope Valley line.

Can you explain please?

 

[Class 170101]

Not sure what the big issue with training during the pandemic was. We actually beat previous records for training drivers at GA throughout that time.

Did many other TOCs do training during this period? I keep getting the impression that the other TOCs did not.

 

[HSTEd]

Can you explain please?

My understanding is that the Beeching related closure programme originally planned to axe the Hope Valley Line and retain Woodhead, given that the latter was superior in various respects.

Unfortunately, due to poor public transport in the Hope Valley, that line was ordered retained for social benefit reasons.
If BR was going to be forced to maintain the Hope Valley line it had no use for another passenger railway from Manchester to Sheffield, so it withdrew services on Woodhead.

Woodhead then ran until the coal traffic dried up and closed in 1981.

 

[dk1]

Did many other TOCs do training during this period? I keep getting the impression that the other TOCs did not.

No, most were hopeless.

 

[Llandudno]

It was scheduled to the point that TPE started recruiting the train crew and then was cancelled to avoid training needs during COVID.

Since then TPE has imploded and Liverpool - Norwich appears to be remaining intact, except as I mentioned with the possibility of longer trains featuring 3 car 170s working to Norwich coupling to 2 car sets on some diagrams at Nottingham to increase capacity on the East side too.

The more persistent rumour nowadays is actually the transfer of South TPE to EMR instead to allow TPE to focus on sorting out the North route.

Whilst EMR are far from perfect I am sure they would make a better job of running Cleethorpes-Liverpool than TPE, the only issue from a passenger perspective is that there maybe an increase in advance fares due to little competition on the route?

 

[urbophile]

My understanding is that the Beeching related closure programme originally planned to axe the Hope Valley Line and retain Woodhead, given that the latter was superior in various respects.

Unfortunately, due to poor public transport in the Hope Valley, that line was ordered retained for social benefit reasons.
If BR was going to be forced to maintain the Hope Valley line it had no use for another passenger railway from Manchester to Sheffield, so it withdrew services on Woodhead.

Woodhead then ran until the coal traffic dried up and closed in 1981.

Thanks. I thought it might have something to do with that. Is it too far south to have been an alternative to the Transpennine link via Huddersfield? I guess so.

 

[Western Sunset]

And BR wanted to concentrate all Sheff services on the former Midland station.

 

[yorksrob]

My understanding is that the Beeching related closure programme originally planned to axe the Hope Valley Line and retain Woodhead, given that the latter was superior in various respects.

Unfortunately, due to poor public transport in the Hope Valley, that line was ordered retained for social benefit reasons.
If BR was going to be forced to maintain the Hope Valley line it had no use for another passenger railway from Manchester to Sheffield, so it withdrew services on Woodhead.

Woodhead then ran until the coal traffic dried up and closed in 1981.

So really, the closure programme is to blame, rather than the social railway.

It has to be said, the Hope Valley is rather more suited to the leisure travel on which the railway depends these days.

 

[dk1]

Whilst EMR are far from perfect I am sure they would make a better job of running Cleethorpes-Liverpool than TPE, the only issue from a passenger perspective is that there maybe an increase in advance fares due to little competition on the route?

Transferring the Cleethorpes to Liverpool route over to EMR wouldn’t really make any difference. All traincrew T&Cs would simply TUPE over too.

 

[HSTEd]

So really, the closure programme is to blame, rather than the social railway.

It's not really reasonable to expect the railway to just keep two railways open when it barely has the traffic for one. And once the inferior railway is forced to stay open it signs the death warrant of the other.

It has to be said, the Hope Valley is rather more suited to the leisure travel on which the railway depends these days.

Is it? The journey is tedious and the lack of electrification increases operational costs.

It might be "better" for the small number of people attempting to travel into the peaks, but it is markedly inferior for the bread and butter of people actually trying to travel between Manchester and Sheffield.

But this is wandering dangerously off topic......

 

[yorksrob]

It's not really reasonable to expect the railway to just keep two railways open when it barely has the traffic for one. And once the inferior railway is forced to stay open it signs the death warrant of the other.


Is it? The journey is tedious and the lack of electrification increases operational costs.

It might be "better" for the small number of people attempting to travel into the peaks, but it is markedly inferior for the bread and butter of people actually trying to travel between Manchester and Sheffield.

It also takes people into the station in Sheffield where people can get connections. I should imagine Stockport's a decent traffic centre between the two as well.

Don't get me wrong, I think the policy on removing duplicate routes was a poor one, but given the choice, Hope valley seems to serve more markets.

 

[HSTEd]

It also takes people into the station in Sheffield where people can get connections. I should imagine Stockport's a decent traffic centre between the two as well.

Don't get me wrong, I think the policy on removing duplicate routes was a poor one, but given the choice, Hope valley seems to serve more markets.

I'm fairly certain that had Woodhead been retained, modifications would have been made at the Sheffield end to allow services to be concentrated onto Midland, just as was done in several other places over the subsequent decades. See Lincoln as an example.

But alas, Woodhead is gone now and we are stuck with Hope Valley almost forever.