A language question

[Calthrop]

Prompted by a recent discussion on another message board: thoughts given rise to, about the French word "gare", for railway (and subsequently, other-public-transport) station. Since railways' coming to be: various words in various languages have come about, for "the designated place where one gets on / off trains" -- often, essentially the English word "station", or the language's equivalent / adaptation thereof. Some languages have spawned other words for the concept -- including the French "gare": in my perception, found only in French, and in languages of some countries in -- in whatever way -- France's sphere of influence.

Wondering is prompted, as to how "gare" came about in this context. I have encountered in the past, the following: the French exclamation "Gare !", signifying "watch out / make way" -- which was often an urgent thing to do, as regards the new and sometimes alarming mode of transport; in the strange way in which new words are often born, the "warning shout" was taken up to mean "the designated place...etc". I have to wonder: is this derivation reckoned true and accurate -- or is it an "urban legend"? Would be interested to hear from anyone well-informed on this point.

 

[Alfonso]

Prompted by a recent discussion on another message board: thoughts given rise to, about the French word "gare", for railway (and subsequently, other-public-transport) station. Since railways' coming to be: various words in various languages have come about, for "the designated place where one gets on / off trains" -- often, essentially the English word "station", or the language's equivalent / adaptation thereof. Some languages have spawned other words for the concept -- including the French "gare": in my perception, found only in French, and in languages of some countries in -- in whatever way -- France's sphere of influence.

Wondering is prompted, as to how "gare" came about in this context. I have encountered in the past, the following: the French exclamation "Gare !", signifying "watch out / make way" -- which was often an urgent thing to do, as regards the new and sometimes alarming mode of transport; in the strange way in which new words are often born, the "warning shout" was taken up to mean "the designated place...etc". I have to wonder: is this derivation reckoned true and accurate -- or is it an "urban legend"? Would be interested to hear from anyone well-informed on this point.

gare | Etymology of gare by etymonline

"train station," 1840 in French, from earlier sense "river port, pier" (17c.), verbal… See origin and meaning of gare.

www.etymonline.com

gare | Etymology of gare by etymonline

"train station," 1840 in French, from earlier sense "river port, pier" (17c.), verbal… See origin and meaning of gare.

www.etymonline.com

On a vaguely related but utterly uniformed source, I was told Russians called their stations Vauxhall (more or less) following the Tsars advisors visit to South London to se the newfangled railway.

 

[Calthrop]

gare | Etymology of gare by etymonline

"train station," 1840 in French, from earlier sense "river port, pier" (17c.), verbal… See origin and meaning of gare.

www.etymonline.com

On a vaguely related but utterly uniformed source, I was told Russians called their stations Vauxhall (more or less) following the Tsars advisors visit to South London to se the newfangled railway.

I've heard that account; also and alternatively, that Russia's very first railway, opened in the 1840s -- from St. Petersburg a little way into the suburbs -- had a station at a pleasure-gardens set-up named (with language-type adjustments) "Vauxhall", after a similar amenity in London -- hence, with the vagaries of language... I get the impression that the thus-derived long-lasting Russian word "voksal" for railway station, has in relatively recent times been largely superseded by "stantsiya" -- but I may be wrong there.


@Alfonso -- thank you -- so, re "gare": "river port, pier": more sense-making, even if less colourful, than "train coming -- get out of the bleeding way !"

 

[jamesontheroad]

Referring to the French dictionary published online by Larousse, the entry for "gare" reads as follows - (translated into English):

DEFINITIONS​

• All railway installations making it possible to carry out operations relating to the movement of trains, to the service of passengers and / or goods.
• Place in a river intended to put boats in safety and prevent them from interfering with navigation.
• A part of a canal that is wide enough for two boats to pass or pass each other without colliding.

Wiktionary, which I trust slightly less but which has more etymological info, says that in French it comes from the verb garer, to park or to dock:

From Middle French garrer, guerrer, from Old French garer, warer, varer, of Germanic origin, from Old Frankish *warōn (“to guard, keep watch”) and/or Old Norse varask (“to be on one's guard, beware of, shun”); both ultimately from Proto-Germanic *warōną (“to watch, protect”), from Proto-Indo-European *wer- (“to become aware of, perceive, give heed”). Distantly related to garder, garde, garnir and ré-vér-er.

Although I speak French quite well, something I never understood is why in some transport contexts, the word "station" is equally acceptable for a railway or metro station. For example, the Montréal métro, where recorded on-board announcements always prefix the name of the stop with "station", for example "prohaine station: de l'Eglise." Larousse suggests that this is for "transports en commun" instead of railways, so perhaps it is related more precisely to light rail, metro and buses. (Edit: it isn't a French-Canadian quirk, either, since the VIA Rail / AMT / Amtrak terminal in Montréal is still Gare Centrale).

 

[vlad]

I get the impression that the thus-derived long-lasting Russian word "voksal" for railway station, has in relatively recent times been largely superseded by "stantsiya" -- but I may be wrong there.

Vokzal is still in everyday use as a major station; stantsiya is used for the less important ones.

For example, if we all spoke Russian, we'd use voksal to refer to Manchester Piccadilly, Reading, Glasgow Central, etc. and stantsiya to refer to Levenshulme, Tilehurst and Crossmyloof.

 

[madjack]

I've heard that account; also and alternatively, that Russia's very first railway, opened in the 1840s -- from St. Petersburg a little way into the suburbs -- had a station at a pleasure-gardens set-up named (with language-type adjustments) "Vauxhall", after a similar amenity in London

It was also related to the fact that zal of vokzal means "hall" in Russian on its own - so not a totally random adoption.

 

[Calthrop]

Further thoughts on the French "gare": I get the picture that the word; or rather, derivatives of it; have been adopted for "railway station", in the languages of certain countries which have been one way or another, in France's sphere of influence. It's generally accepted that pre-Communism, the culture of Romania tended to admire and often emulate that of France -- the Romanian word for "railway station", is gara. And "Google Translate" -- assuming it can be believed -- suggests (to my interest and surprise) that neighbouring Bulgaria's word for "railway station" is the very same one -- although (generalising broadly) it is perceived in the main that the nations and folk of Romania and Bulgaria are: as well as being from way back, different from each other ethnically and re respective language families; also not very keen on each other !

Also; with Vietnam's rail system having had its beginnings when the country was a French colony: the Vietnamese word for "railway station" is ga.

Vokzal is still in everyday use as a major station; stantsiya is used for the less important ones.

For example, if we all spoke Russian, we'd use voksal to refer to Manchester Piccadilly, Reading, Glasgow Central, etc. and stantsiya to refer to Levenshulme, Tilehurst and Crossmyloof.

It was also related to the fact that zal of vokzal means "hall" in Russian on its own - so not a totally random adoption.

Thanks -- interesting to learn. "Google Translate" facilities are essentially very basic; and -- as here -- will miss various subtleties.

 

[SHD]

The first train stations opened in France in the 1830s/1840s were referred to as “embarcadères” (boarding points), a word borrowed from the vocabulary of inland navigation.

The word “gare” was initially used in a slightly different sense: it referred to specific installations such as sidings on single-line railways designed for train crossing and escapement. This was also a loanword from the world of river and canals. These sidings usually coincided with stations and progressively “gare” took over “embarcadère”

see this entry from the Trésor de la langue française (the dictionary of the Académie française, wonderful for etymology):

GARE : Définition de GARE

www.cnrtl.fr

Rem. 1. Jusqu'à la fin des années 1860, on employait embarcadère* dans le sens de gare. 2. Au xixes. on a employé port*-sec pour gare de marchandises (cf. Wexler 1955, p. 87).

 

[madjack]

I've been to GA HA NOI - about the only word of Vietnamese I knew.

Also neighbouring Turkish has "gar" for a large station ("istasyon" for a metro stop) - a surprising number of words from French made it there in the late 19th century, e.g. around science and medicine.

I thought I was the only combined railway/language geek

 

[eastwestdivide]

I thought I was the only combined railway/language geek

No, you're not alone!
Just found a long discussion/argument (in German) from 2005 on the various German words for station: Bahnhof, Haltestelle und Haltepunkt

Unterschied Bahnhof und Haltestelle... :: www.bahninfo-forum.de

www.bahninfo-forum.de

 

[Merle Haggard]

Admittedly off at a slight tangent, but I used to be puzzled by the painted instructions on international wagons visiting this country in the 1960's. It seemed to say (using schoolboy French) 'not to pass onto chariots-de-gare'. What were they?

 

[JonathanP]

No, you're not alone!
Just found a long discussion/argument (in German) from 2005 on the various German words for station: Bahnhof, Haltestelle und Haltepunkt

Unterschied Bahnhof und Haltestelle... :: www.bahninfo-forum.de

www.bahninfo-forum.de

Ah, yes

A lot of people think Bahnhof = Railway Station, but in fact there are many Bahnhöfe with no platforms, and many places where people board and alight from trains which are not Bahnhöfe.

I think there was also a discussion here about which British stations truly deserved the title "halt" and whether there was any logic to it, so at least the Germans have it figured out!

 

[Gloster]

Bulgarian is a Slavic language, while Romanian is a Romance language, which means that they have developed in completely different ways. It is still quite possible that one might have nicked a word from the other.

 

[SHD]

Admittedly off at a slight tangent, but I used to be puzzled by the painted instructions on international wagons visiting this country in the 1960's. It seemed to say (using schoolboy French) 'not to pass onto chariots-de-gare'. What were they?

In this specific meaning, "chariots de gare" refers to chariots transbordeurs: transfer carriages used to shift wagons and passenger coaches laterally from mainline tracks to sidings and v.v.


This kind of equipment: http://alain.tgm.pagesperso-orange.fr/chariot_transbordeur.htm

I doubt there is a single left in service outside of depots!

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Another railway and language enthusiast here
Busbahnhof is bus station in German, ZOB is a common term for Zentralomnibusbahnhof, central bus station

'Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof', 'I only understand train station', is the German for 'it is all Greek to me'

Hamburg-Dammtor is a big station that is actually a "Haltepunkt"

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Vauxhall is itself derived from Falke's Hall, from Falkes de Bréauté, a mercenary for King John, no doubt of Norman-French origin.

When I first went to West/East Germany I discovered the name for platform was gleis in the west, but bahnsteig in the east.
The various versions of Hbf in Germanic countries are interesting, also the equivalent Główny/Hlavni/Glavni in a number of Slavic countries (but not ex-USSR*).
Prague's main station is hlavni nádraží , but Bratislava's is hlavna stanica (neither are capitalised).
Hungary has allomas generally, but the big ones in Budapest are palyaudvar.

* although the Moskovsky station in St Petersburg is also known as Glavni.

 

[SHD]

Bulgarian is a Slavic language, while Romanian is a Romance language, which means that they have developed in completely different ways. It is still quite possible that one might have nicked a word from the other.

Bulgarian railways were developed under Turkish administration, which could also be a factor.

 

[Merle Haggard]

In this specific meaning, "chariots de gare" refers to chariots transbordeurs: transfer carriages used to shift wagons and passenger coaches laterally from mainline tracks to sidings and v.v.


This kind of equipment: http://alain.tgm.pagesperso-orange.fr/chariot_transbordeur.htm

I doubt there is a single left in service outside of depots!

Thank you for that, another very long-standing query solved. In this country, a transverser (or, rarely, sector table) performed the same operation, but the difference seems to be that here, the principle was a short length of track moved in a shallow pit, whereas the French equivalent seemed to have a support for each axle, and that support moved on rails. I can see the great advantage of the French version, all tracks remaining continuous but here only the track that lined up could be used (bit hard to describe in words, hope I've explained it).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Bulgarian railways were developed under Turkish administration, which could also be a factor.

And while British firms built the very first lines in the Ottoman empire, including the Ruse-Varna line in Bulgaria, French/Belgian banks and companies dominated early railway construction in Bulgaria.
That included the Oriental railway which built much of the route of what became the Orient Express.
Chemins de fer Orientaux - Wikipedia

 

[Andy1673]

Vokzal is still in everyday use as a major station; stantsiya is used for the less important ones.

For example, if we all spoke Russian, we'd use voksal to refer to Manchester Piccadilly, Reading, Glasgow Central, etc. and stantsiya to refer to Levenshulme, Tilehurst and Crossmyloof.

So Vauxhall would be stantsiya, not vokzal )))))))))))))

 

[Calthrop]

I've been to GA HA NOI - about the only word of Vietnamese I knew.

A Vietnamese word -- one widely known in the West: pho (the country's tasty-soup speciality). I have seen / heard it suggested that this word also, is borrowed from French: a shortening of pot-au-feu. (I find it interesting, and rather nice: that even with countries whose "colonialism" experience was a misery for all concerned, the odd thing nonetheless tends to rub off.)

Also neighbouring Turkish has "gar" for a large station ("istasyon" for a metro stop) - a surprising number of words from French made it there in the late 19th century, e.g. around science and medicine.

I'd got, from the translation-via-Google process, Turkish istasyon; but I now recall from an account by George Behrend of his, long ago, travelling around Turkey by rail: an unhelpful stationmaster informing him, "Yok yatmak gar" -- "you are not allowed to sleep overnight at the station".

Prague's main station is hlavni nádraží , but Bratislava's is hlavna stanica (neither are capitalised).

Hungary has allomas generally, but the big ones in Budapest are palyaudvar.

Hungarian being a non-Indo-European language, one would expect those folk to, very much, "do their own thing" in this matter. (With palyaudvar sometimes being abbreviated to pu.: Budapest Nyugati Pu. [station], has always appealed to the seven-year-old in me.)

Having latched onto this stuff recently -- and perhaps standing in some need of getting out more -- I tried to "do the rounds" of the words for "[railway] station" in all the -- Indo-European -- languages of Europe which came to mind. In part,with information from various posts in this thread: it would appear to be a considerably smaller number of languages which seemingly steer completely clear of the word "station" or its variants, than use it: viz. French, German, Danish, Norwegian, Romanian, and Bulgarian. (Lithuanian and Greek, with stotis and stathmos respectively, I reckoned "not sure": some degree of similarity, but this maybe just coincidence?) Perhaps participants here will let us know that some of the above supposedly non-"station"-using languages, do in fact use it as well as their more-prominent own words...

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Orsaf canol, welsh: central station

 

[Calthrop]

Orsaf canol, welsh: central station

Gorsaf / yr orsaf had, I think, been lurking in my mind; but will confess to having -- no doubt prejudicedly -- ignored the Celtic languages in my investigations.

I seem to recall from Ffestiniog Railway lore, a station in that area -- one of the various Blaenau ones? -- having being referred to as (spelling approximate) "Stesion Fein"; but that, maybe a local and unofficial borrowing from "Saxon-speak".

 

[martinsh]

Latvian is "stacija" / "dzelzcelu stacija"
Lithuanian is "stotis" / "gelezinko stotis"
Estonian is "jaam" / "raudteejaam"

Both "dzelzcelu" and "gelezinko" literally mean "iron way / road"
My Estonian isn't good enough to know the literal meaning of Raudtee.

 

[Calthrop]

Latvian is "stacija" / "dzelzcelu stacija"
Lithuanian is "stotis" / "gelezinko stotis"
Estonian is "jaam" / "raudteejaam"

Both "dzelzcelu" and "gelezinko" literally mean "iron way / road"
My Estonian isn't good enough to know the literal meaning of Raudtee.

If I'm right, Estonian and Finnish are fairly closely related: Finland's railways generally known under the initials VR: electronic looking-up tells me that this stands for Valtion Rautatiet -- State Railways: by same process, "railway station" in Finnish is rautatieasema. Deducibly, raudtee and rautatie mean "railway" in the respective languages... I didn't look into the words for "station" in Estonian / Finnish / Hungarian: not from any lack of affection for those countries / peoples, just because the languages are non-Indo-European, and I thus figured that whatever words they came up with, would be sure to seem outlandish to the likes of us !

 

[rf_ioliver]

Gorsaf / yr orsaf had, I think, been lurking in my mind; but will confess to having -- no doubt prejudicedly -- ignored the Celtic languages in my investigations.

I seem to recall from Ffestiniog Railway lore, a station in that area -- one of the various Blaenau ones? -- having being referred to as (spelling approximate) "Stesion Fein"; but that, maybe a local and unofficial borrowing from "Saxon-speak".

Gorsaf Ganol ... Gorsaf is feminine so the C in Canol mutates to G, and the G drops out completely after the definine article Yr. Using canol looks weird, canolog is better in this context, ie: the "main" station versus the station in the middle. Yr Orsaf Ganolog.

Steision .... <shudder>

Finnish uses: rautatieasema and seisake - literrally (in the first case) "iron road station" and "stopping place" respectively. The word asema corresponds to the simialrly wider definition of station in English, eg: physical postion, postition in a company/army etc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Gorsaf Ganol ... Gorsaf is feminine so the C in Canol mutates to G, and the G drops out completely after the definine article Yr. Using canol looks weird, canolog is better in this context, ie: the "main" station versus the station in the middle. Yr Orsaf Ganolog.

Steision .... <shudder>

In Scots Gaelic it's apparently stèisean rèile, and in Irish stáisiún iarnróid (translator).
Beware mutations in Celtic languages!

 

[Calthrop]

In Scots Gaelic it's apparently stèisean rèile, and in Irish stáisiún iarnróid (translator).
Beware mutations in Celtic languages !

(My bolding): they inflect words at their beginnings, not their ends -- crazy Celts !

 

[etr221]

So Vauxhall would be stantsiya, not vokzal )))))))))))))

My understanding is that the Russian came from the original Nine Elms terminal of L&SR (before it bacame L&SWR) - or rather the more impressive establishment (pleasure garden) next door, which was mistaken for the station by whichever Russian took the word home...

Prague's main station is hlavni nádraží , but Bratislava's is hlavna stanica (neither are capitalised).

There are some differences between Czech and Slovak...

 

[madjack]

(My bolding): they inflect words at their beginnings, not their ends -- crazy Celts !

If you didn't know, it's called lenition, and gives rise to the most obscure T-shirt slogan I know:

Gaels of the World, lenite!