• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Abellio wins West Midlands franchise

Status
Not open for further replies.

sd0733

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2012
Messages
3,773
Why can't they use UDS at the other stations, then? Is it because they hang over junctions if they actually call, but it's OK to run through? I genuinely did think those ones went up the mainline, but you're correct that they don't.

UDS has to be authorised for each station.
At Alsager I've not really sure why it can't happen to be honest as EMT stop meridians with sdo and they block the crossing so not totally sure on that.
Kidsgrove on the up (towards London) the problem there is with the stopping point so far back due to the signal the front cab of the rear unit where the UDS is operated from is actually not in the platform and so it can't be safely operated.
On the down at Kidsgrove the back.set blocks the mainline so isnt used.

At Stone on the up has the same problem as Kidsgrove where the set blocks the junction but even worse as it would foul the I up and down line towards Hixon. On the stoke bound platform at Stone it was originally due to a foot crossing situated right behind the platform and the fear that people would walk behind a stopped train and get hit by an xc running through. The foot crossing is now removed so shouldn't be an issue now altho there is also a neutral section and I think that if an 8 car did stop and it had the pantograph ib coach 7 it could well be in the neutral section which has obvious consequences.
There are Loads of stations where UDS isn't authorised it'd Just most aren't a problem as never see any 8 cars.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

sd0733

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2012
Messages
3,773
Interestingly the first of those does run via Madeley (if RTT is to be believed).

Depends on the date you look at. It's actually booked via Hixon for route knowledge purposes. But there is sometimes overnight blocks and so it goes via Madeley. Occasionally it also goes to Stone then across to Norton Bridge and down that way. The timings allow for any of the 3 routes and is the reason why it's non stop to Rugeley to allow for that
 

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,857
There was a feature on the local news this evening (the leading story in fact) on how people in the Potteries are outraged that the 'cheap' London service is being caped.

The Labour MP for Stoke North Ruth Smeeth was interviewed saying how this proves that the Tory Northern Powerhouse / Midlands Engine is all nonsense as they have shown they wished to deprive communities etc in the region of their cheap train services. A local Independent councillor for Stone was also on saying that the London link is imperative and was one of the reasons they fought so hard to get it reopened (of sorts) in 2008.

The replacement service to Birmingham was mentioned, as was the possibility of changing at Stafford or Crewe for the service, however this was only mentioned in passing.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,930
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Is there any info on what the new EMUs and DMUs will be. Im guessing the EMUs will be aventras or desiro citys

Nothing will be said further until the 10-day award standstill period has elapsed, and even then it will be up to Abellio/JR/Mitsui to announce it when they are ready (assuming no challenge to the contract award).
For Greater Anglia they were quite quick to confirm all their new stock, but West Midlands is more complicated with some new and some old stock remaining.
All sorts of negotiations will be in progress with suppliers/ROSCOs.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,938
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
That is going to change from December (all 8 car and direct Stafford-Crewe). It's also the reason why the 1849 runs direct Stafford-Crewe.

That's also not the peak by any standard interpretation. It's VT's peak, which has nothing to do with demand and everything to do with price gouging.

The actual (busy) peak at Euston, certainly towards MKC, is roughly the period shown on LM's poster, i.e. about 1600-1900, with "shoulder peak" being up to about 1930.

By the way, the Crewes are not largely full of people avoiding VT peak restrictions (and they are full at most times of day); evidence of this is how quiet they are when you actually get to Crewe itself. They are well-used by people travelling to/from the stations only served by LM (or barely served by VT) in the Trent Valley. The Birminghams are to *some* extent, but a lot of VT avoiders are using the much faster Chiltern.

You really do have no idea whatsoever about south WCML operations, and I really do suggest some reading.

In my experience they are used a *lot* for journeys London to Stoke. I was very surprised taking a northbound service Euston to Atherstone just after the morning peak, a time generally fairly quiet for most trains heading out of London, and the train was absolutely crush loaded for the whole journey. All three others sitting at my table, all travelling independently, had London to Stoke tickets. Being that I was making a journey for which I had no alternative service, I was extremely unimpressed - especially knowing there would be two relatively empty Pendolinos making the Stoke journey each hour. I've found similar when making intermediate journeys on LM's Birmingham journeys. The high frequency helps, but they should be routinely attaching extra capacity for the section south of Northampton at least, but many journeys don't.

At least Chiltern have done quite a bit on enhancing capacity for their assault on the Birmingham to London market,although their trains can often be short and overcrowded at times too. LM's policy is to stuff a 4-car unit as full as possible - fine for those who want to make a bargain-basement journey, but not for those who don't have the luxury of choice. For this reason I won't be sorry to see LM go, although I bet the practice will continue, albeit hopefully with some extra capacity.

GN have cheapie fares for London to Peterborough, and it's another proverbial pain in the backside - especially at weekends when they don't run so many limited stop services, so the intermediate users suffer whilst VTEC has spare capacity. There seems to have been an explosion in weekend London to Peterborough journeys in the last couple of years - seems to be another undesirable London overspill related issue.
 
Last edited:

sd0733

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2012
Messages
3,773
There was a feature on the local news this evening (the leading story in fact) on how people in the Potteries are outraged that the 'cheap' London service is being caped.

The Labour MP for Stoke North Ruth Smeeth was interviewed saying how this proves that the Tory Northern Powerhouse / Midlands Engine is all nonsense as they have shown they wished to deprive communities etc in the region of their cheap train services. A local Independent councillor for Stone was also on saying that the London link is imperative and was one of the reasons they fought so hard to get it reopened (of sorts) in 2008.

The replacement service to Birmingham was mentioned, as was the possibility of changing at Stafford or Crewe for the service, however this was only mentioned in passing.

I dont see the massive deal on this one.
It was known months ago this was going to happen when the ITT was released. Also when doing tickets from Stone by far the most common tickets I sell are for people travelling to Stafford and Stoke, this flow will continue and should have better peak connectivity and more regular services and probably later services being a shorter route. At peak times there are also a lot of Stone-Stafford/Stafford Birmingham tickets due to the absurd fares from a stone meaning almost all tickets towards or via Birmingham are far cheaper to split at Stafford. A few times I sell/see London tickets but even then a lot are actually travelling via Stoke and changing there onto a VT service, there are advances routed that way.
 

nuneatonmark

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2014
Messages
473
I dont see the massive deal on this one.
It was known months ago this was going to happen when the ITT was released. Also when doing tickets from Stone by far the most common tickets I sell are for people travelling to Stafford and Stoke, this flow will continue and should have better peak connectivity and more regular services and probably later services being a shorter route. At peak times there are also a lot of Stone-Stafford/Stafford Birmingham tickets due to the absurd fares from a stone meaning almost all tickets towards or via Birmingham are far cheaper to split at Stafford. A few times I sell/see London tickets but even then a lot are actually travelling via Stoke and changing there onto a VT service, there are advances routed that way.

I do have some sympathy for people from Stone, Alsager etc but this is a situation that should never have happened, routing LM trains via Stoke was stupid and now it's been corrected to what should have been the situation when the service was introduced. Routing via Stoke screwed up connections for all the TV stations to the North West, except possibly Manchester. Also re overcrowding on the current 4 coach trains. 8 coach trains is righting another wrong after Virgin virtually pulled out of the TV stations. It's taken 10 years to to that.
 

sd0733

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2012
Messages
3,773
I do have some sympathy for people from Stone, Alsager etc but this is a situation that should never have happened, routing LM trains via Stoke was stupid and now it's been corrected to what should have been the situation when the service was introduced. Routing via Stoke screwed up connections for all the TV stations to the North West, except possibly Manchester. Also re overcrowding on the current 4 coach trains. 8 coach trains is righting another wrong after Virgin virtually pulled out of the TV stations. It's taken 10 years to to that.

Yes agree with that, this idea of extending a Wolverhampton stopper was one we suggested a couple of years ago to management as altho naturally there are losers there are far more winners.
The Cheap market from Stoke will be the biggest losses however there's also a large market from Liverpool on LM tickets so the change of trains doesn't necessarily force them off anyway provided the price is right.
But yes the stoke detour added an unnecessarily large amount of time to the route as well as the well known capacity problems. Those trains have really become a victim of their own success but at 4-car also a waste of precious fast line capacity between Euston and Rugby
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,654
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The Cheap market from Stoke will be the biggest losses however there's also a large market from Liverpool on LM tickets so the change of trains doesn't necessarily force them off anyway provided the price is right.
But yes the stoke detour added an unnecessarily large amount of time to the route as well as the well known capacity problems. Those trains have really become a victim of their own success but at 4-car also a waste of precious fast line capacity between Euston and Rugby

I agree they should be much longer. I quite like the idea of extending the Crewe to Liverpool in the place of one of the Birminghams if it could be pathed, with the other being truncated to Crewe-Birmingham only.

Interestingly they are pseudo-Open Access - LM isn't required to provide them in their current form, it's just required to serve the Trent Valley hourly.
 

sd0733

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2012
Messages
3,773
I agree they should be much longer. I quite like the idea of extending the Crewe to Liverpool in the place of one of the Birminghams if it could be pathed, with the other being truncated to Crewe-Birmingham only.

Interestingly they are pseudo-Open Access - LM isn't required to provide them in their current form, it's just required to serve the Trent Valley hourly.

If they keep the same paths off London then swapping it to Liverpool would be very easy,as They get to Stafford at xx35 and the Liverpool leaves at xx 36. The way back may no be quite as good though!
Also depends on the wording of the spec for Birminghamto Liverpool, if the franchise requires two direct services from br to Liverpool then the options gone anyway.

Yes there was never a requirement for them to go past Rugby in the old franchise spec.
 
Last edited:

WideRanger

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2016
Messages
327
I haven't seen it mentioned and if it has I apologize. There is lots of talk of Stadler Flirts and Bombardier Aventras how ever JR East actually own their own rolling stock manufacturing company called JTREC.

https://www.j-trec.co.jp/eng/rw/index.html

I am wondering if we will see the work going to their own company? Would this be allowed? That would certainly stir the market up with their Japanese rivals over here already.

I think 'Rivals' is putting it a bit strong. There is a long tradition of close cooperation between the various Japanese rolling stock manufacturers, and indeed with operators. It's quite common to see trains built where individual carriages are built by different manufacturers (to the same design) to share the work around.
 

GrandCentral

Member
Joined
8 Aug 2017
Messages
34
I've just moved to the West Midlands recently but I've never had any problems with London Midland, both on the City line or the London link. It would be nice to see an upgrade on the London sets as they are miles behind Virgin from Brum with it comes to service, having said that they are usually miles cheaper.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,654
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I've just moved to the West Midlands recently but I've never had any problems with London Midland, both on the City line or the London link. It would be nice to see an upgrade on the London sets as they are miles behind Virgin from Brum with it comes to service, having said that they are usually miles cheaper.

While I don't dislike Pendolinos (and there's a thread on that) I do prefer 350s, much more spacious and comfortable, they just need to stop running them as 4-car sets.
 

ChrisHogan

Member
Joined
15 Jan 2016
Messages
345
I do have some sympathy for people from Stone, Alsager etc but this is a situation that should never have happened, routing LM trains via Stoke was stupid and now it's been corrected to what should have been the situation when the service was introduced. Routing via Stoke screwed up connections for all the TV stations to the North West, except possibly Manchester. Also re overcrowding on the current 4 coach trains. 8 coach trains is righting another wrong after Virgin virtually pulled out of the TV stations. It's taken 10 years to to that.

If the service hadn't been routed via Stoke, then how would you have reinstated the service to Stone? The SRA had looked at stopping one of the Voyagers at Stone but unsurprisingly concluded that was a non-runner. We need to remember that this was one of the DfT's consultation questions for the new franchise and 63% supported the solution now being mandated of WM. The SRA equally wanted to get the journey time from Manchester to Euston down to as close to two hours as possible with the Stuart Baker VHF timetable (Etruria was sacrified to this objective) and this was why the stops at TV stations were largely withdrawn.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,888
Location
Redcar
No they have pantographs too, at least for testing purposes.

Yes some of the units are being delivered with pantographs to allow for AC OHLE testing and certification but the bulk are being delivered without as, of course, until recently the plan would not have required them to have pantographs at all!
 

trash80

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2015
Messages
1,204
Location
Birches Green
I believe they are all going to be "fitted for" like all modern third-rail EMUs so conversion is not too involved.
 

nuneatonmark

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2014
Messages
473
If the service hadn't been routed via Stoke, then how would you have reinstated the service to Stone? The SRA had looked at stopping one of the Voyagers at Stone but unsurprisingly concluded that was a non-runner. We need to remember that this was one of the DfT's consultation questions for the new franchise and 63% supported the solution now being mandated of WM. The SRA equally wanted to get the journey time from Manchester to Euston down to as close to two hours as possible with the Stuart Baker VHF timetable (Etruria was sacrified to this objective) and this was why the stops at TV stations were largely withdrawn.

Well they could have done exactly the same as what they are now going to do i.e. a local stations stopper from Wolverhampton to Stoke!!! I am well aware of the fine job the DfT did in screwing all the TV stations when most Virgin services were withdrawn and replaced with completely inadequate service which LM have managed to improve in their defence. The services are now a victim of their own success so it will be good to go to 8 coaches, although I would have rather had 2 x 4 coach trains an hour but never mind.
 

bnsf734

Member
Joined
15 Oct 2007
Messages
579
Location
Nuneaton
On tonights edition of Midlands Today on BBC 1 they said that West Midlands Rail have given the direct Stoke & the Potteries to Euston London Midland service a reprieve - that didn't take long to change minds!

No more details were given on the programme tonight so not sure how it all fits together with the other developments.
 
Last edited:

the sniper

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2007
Messages
3,499
On tonights edition of Midlands Today on BBC 1 they said that West Midlands Rail have given the direct Stoke & the Potteries to Euston service a reprieve - that didn't take long to change minds!

No more details were given on the programme tonight so not sure how it all fits together with the other developments.

Maybe they'll wait for the new stock to be delivered?
 
Last edited:

sd0733

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2012
Messages
3,773
From what I've seen it's not had a reprieve really. It'll be a euston-birmingham service extended to crewe rather than a Wolverhampton stopper.
Gives them all the option of a direct service but it'll take an eternity especially if goes via Northampton as well.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
If the service hadn't been routed via Stoke, then how would you have reinstated the service to Stone? The SRA had looked at stopping one of the Voyagers at Stone but unsurprisingly concluded that was a non-runner. We need to remember that this was one of the DfT's consultation questions for the new franchise and 63% supported the solution now being mandated of WM. The SRA equally wanted to get the journey time from Manchester to Euston down to as close to two hours as possible with the Stuart Baker VHF timetable (Etruria was sacrified to this objective) and this was why the stops at TV stations were largely withdrawn.

Well they could have done exactly the same as what they are now going to do i.e. a local stations stopper from Wolverhampton to Stoke!!! I am well aware of the fine job the DfT did in screwing all the TV stations when most Virgin services were withdrawn and replaced with completely inadequate service which LM have managed to improve in their defence. The services are now a victim of their own success so it will be good to go to 8 coaches, although I would have rather had 2 x 4 coach trains an hour but never mind.

If they didn't route the London - Trent Valley - Crewe service via Stoke then there'd have been no point in electrifying Stoke - Crewe (doing it just for diversionary purposes wouldn't have cut the mustard, and the hourly 153/156 between Stoke and Crewe would have been the only passenger service).

Then again, you are complaining that the service is "totally inadequate" - but if a "totally inadequate" service is one that's outgrown a four coach EMU after only a few years then I can think of worse services :lol:

Maybe you don't remember the level of Trent Valley service in the Central Trains days, but things now are as good as I can remember them - the only links that the Trent Valley stations have lost are to Walsall/ Coventry/ Nottingham but that's not the fault of the LM Euston service.

Good point from ChrisHogan re Stone - IIRC this was in the era of getting Voyagers to stop at Chester le Street and Dronfield, in the absence of a proper local service - the current set up is much preferable.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,838
Location
Herts
Crewe - Stoke was wired as part of the tier blockade plan for Stafford - Crewe - Stockport and Stoke - Cheadle Hulme.

There is a lot more , but wont go into that now .....
 

87015

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2006
Messages
4,914
Location
GEML/WCML/SR
If they didn't route the London - Trent Valley - Crewe service via Stoke then there'd have been no point in electrifying Stoke - Crewe (doing it just for diversionary purposes wouldn't have cut the mustard, and the hourly 153/156 between Stoke and Crewe would have been the only passenger service).
.

Point of order, Alsager was wired ENTIRELY for diversionary purposes of up WCML expresses during the WCRM open chequebook era to allow rebuilding of Crewe-Norton Bridge for 125 - the down slow remained open with Alsagwr being the up route. This was when the entire TV locals was reduced to buses by WCRM wishes, even Rugby-Stafford was caped let alone any thoughts of sending stuff through via Alsager.

Reference to TV stoppers during this time is a complete red herring, pre privatisation it was around a 90 min frequency from Cov/Rugby to Stafford/Stoke/Crewe (direct) using DMU/304/308/310/312/323 at various stages...
 
Last edited:

bILLOO

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2011
Messages
311
So apart from extra Sunday trains, what else will the Northampton loop receive?
 

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
I wonder if there will be a Manchester to Birmingham stopper anytime soon? If so, would Northern take it on? Would West Midlands take it on? Would it be shared? I've toyed with the idea for a while.
 

the sniper

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2007
Messages
3,499
I wonder if there will be a Manchester to Birmingham stopper anytime soon? If so, would Northern take it on? Would West Midlands take it on? Would it be shared? I've toyed with the idea for a while.

You tell us, it's your idea...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top