Abellio wins West Midlands franchise

[sd0733]

The old chestnuts keep coming round.
Trains out of Liverpool towards Birmingham/London are NOT particularly busy, and the Birminghams are really quiet until Stafford where the hordes get on.
Another telling factor is that often more people join/leave these trains at Crewe than continue to Liverpool.
Liverpool gets extra VT services in the peak, and they are nearly all 11-car.

The Birmingham service still has the character it started out with - a pair of Birmingham-Stafford and Crewe-Liverpool locals, joined up in the middle to save "intercity" running a separate service.

The Liverpool-Brums are very well used at pretty much all times of day from the experience of working them on a regular basis for the past few years.
In general the xx:04 off Liverpool are busier as it provides the most connections, it's a popular change even from Liverpool onto the xx:56 for Milton Keynes and London at crewe and also onto the xx:02 for Stoke and the xx:07 for Derby as well the the xx:08 down towards shrewsbury and wales. Then there are also a lot change at Wolverhampton on to the xx:41 down to Coventry, Leamington, Oxford etc etc.
The 34s out of Liverpool are generally slightly quieter as they only really provide a connection at Stafford onto the LM service to London.
intermediate stations between Crewe and Liverpool all generally have quite a bit of commuter traffic into Liverpool and also some to Crewe for Crewe itself but also towards Manchester and Birmingham and Hartford in particular generates a lot of London traffic. One market which is suprisingly quite popular considering what an awkward journey it is by rail is from Winsford and hartford towards Warrington and Preston. Weekends are pretty much all full and standing often all the way from Crewe or even Stafford to Liverpool from round 10 am to mid afternoon and out of Liverpool after around the 14:34 right through til 22:04.
Any loss of these services would be highly unpopular and particularly at weekends they desperatly need more capacity. 8-car running wouldn't require any platform extensions as all stations which don't accommodate 8 coaches (Coseley, Smethwick GB, Penkridge, Winsford, Acton Bridge and South Parkway) are all authorised for the use of the unit deselect system on the 350s.

 

[Camden]

Beg to differ, I find LM Liverpool to Birmingham service is busy, obviously certain of day times are quieter but, generally it can't be argued this is a well used service, if you have to stand that's a busy service, and I have, quite often. Your comment about more getting off at Crewe than continue on to Liverpool is not really correct. How ever many alight at Crewe there are just as many waiting at Crewe to get on, I speak from experience, I use this route.

Oh and as for trains from Liverpool to London NOT busy........crazy statement, sorry !

I agree. I use train services across the north extensively and have done for years. I've sat on that London Midland train end to end at various times of the day. I use the Virgin service weekly, Liverpool and Manchester both. Obviously the officials agree anyway, as more Birmingham to Liverpool services are planned and likely to use longer trains.

I felt inclined to correct the other person who commented simply to provide him with a hands on perspective, but if there is one thing I find strange and not at all nice it's a constant denigration of one particular city. Sometimes it happens by parroting, other times it's blatantly just put out there.

Whether it's services it's already got or services it might get or might want, nowhere else in Britain has so many people from so many other places chipping in to shout out that it doesn't need or merit them, questioning why it has them or why not do something else instead.

A bit of local rivalry is one thing, but begrudging even the measliest of meagre transport pie-share to a place on a special case basis smacks of people hosting a general resentment that the place is part of the country at all. It's very unpleasant.

 

[satisnek]

Good news for paint and uniform manufacturers.

 

[387star]

GWR is not fixed

So why the diagonal stripes like tl,

Is tl fixed ?

 

[WarJan]

As a member of staff with GTR, does this mean we will lose London midland benefits, if I still show the pass, will abellio staff let me through still

 

[JaJaWa]

So why the diagonal stripes like tl,

Is tl fixed ?

Yes the TOC neutral livery was created by the DfT, as far as I understand TL could change it but the cost doesn’t make sense as they are on a management contact rather than a normal franchise

 

[frodshamfella]

The Liverpool-Brums are very well used at pretty much all times of day from the experience of working them on a regular basis for the past few years.
In general the xx:04 off Liverpool are busier as it provides the most connections, it's a popular change even from Liverpool onto the xx:56 for Milton Keynes and London at crewe and also onto the xx:02 for Stoke and the xx:07 for Derby as well the the xx:08 down towards shrewsbury and wales. Then there are also a lot change at Wolverhampton on to the xx:41 down to Coventry, Leamington, Oxford etc etc.
The 34s out of Liverpool are generally slightly quieter as they only really provide a connection at Stafford onto the LM service to London.
intermediate stations between Crewe and Liverpool all generally have quite a bit of commuter traffic into Liverpool and also some to Crewe for Crewe itself but also towards Manchester and Birmingham and Hartford in particular generates a lot of London traffic. One market which is suprisingly quite popular considering what an awkward journey it is by rail is from Winsford and hartford towards Warrington and Preston. Weekends are pretty much all full and standing often all the way from Crewe or even Stafford to Liverpool from round 10 am to mid afternoon and out of Liverpool after around the 14:34 right through til 22:04.
Any loss of these services would be highly unpopular and particularly at weekends they

desperatly need more capacity. 8-car running wouldn't require any platform extensions as all stations which don't accommodate 8 coaches (Coseley, Smethwick GB, Penkridge, Winsford, Acton Bridge and South Parkway) are all authorised for the use of the unit deselect system on the 350s.

I have always found LM service pretty good, so its a shame there going. I'd like to see more car parking at Acton Bridge, its very small and often full in the week, with options for on the road parking limited. One thing LM was good at is, should a service calling at Acton Bridge happened to be cancelled, the next service would make an unscheduled stop, which I for one appreciated greatly. I don't know if this is commonplace with every TOC in the country, but well done LM anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A bit of local rivalry is one thing, but begrudging even the measliest of meagre transport pie-share to a place on a special case basis smacks of people hosting a general resentment that the place is part of the country at all. It's very unpleasant.

Given that I was one such person, do you actually know where I hail from? (Clue: that very city).

All I said was that I think the hourly London service is adequate apart from needing an earlier first and later last train. I didn't say the Liverpool to Brum service should be cut to hourly, though I could see an argument for it to be changed from two semifasts to one fast (Crewe, Stafford, Wolves, New St) and one stopper, possibly the latter being an extension of the London to Crewe service which I think would be quite popular, doing something else with the "orphan" Crewe-Brum bit.

FWIW I also think the VT Manchester service should be cut to half-hourly with the stock/staff so released used to increase to 4tph in the peaks (including the "off peak peaks" of Friday evening and Sunday afternoon) in the direction of flow.

FWIW I have seen it overcrowded or busy more often than not. It's also very unreliable. So more stock (and staff) would assist here. 5x24m would likely be a good length.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Sorry, why is it that the logo for WM Trains has been released already, yet from South Western Railway we've seen nothing.

 

[ChrisHogan]

Sorry, why is it that the logo for WM Trains has been released already, yet from South Western Railway we've seen nothing.

It was included with the ITT documentation released last September.

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes the TOC neutral livery was created by the DfT, as far as I understand TL could change it but the cost doesn’t make sense as they are on a management contact rather than a normal franchise

I believe first group own the rights to the GWR logo

 

[Jurg]

This Coventry Telegraph article appears to suggest that Abellio are looking at through services between Nuneaton and Leamington from December 2018:

"Our intention is to run a shuttle service hourly from Leamington to Coventry then Nuneaton. It will be introduced in December 2018.”

 

[Jurg]

Sorry, why is it that the logo for WM Trains has been released already, yet from South Western Railway we've seen nothing.

The difference would be WM Rail, the devolved local organisation set up to oversee the West Midlands franchise.

 

[frodshamfella]

Given that I was one such person, do you actually know where I hail from? (Clue: that very city).

All I said was that I think the hourly London service is adequate apart from needing an earlier first and later last train. I didn't say the Liverpool to Brum service should be cut to hourly, though I could see an argument for it to be changed from two semifasts to one fast (Crewe, Stafford, Wolves, New St) and one stopper, possibly the latter being an extension of the London to Crewe service which I think would be quite popular, doing something else with the "orphan" Crewe-Brum bit.

FWIW I also think the VT Manchester service should be cut to half-hourly with the stock/staff so released used to increase to 4tph in the peaks (including the "off peak peaks" of Friday evening and Sunday afternoon) in the direction of flow.

FWIW I have seen it overcrowded or busy more often than not. It's also very unreliable. So more stock (and staff) would assist here. 5x24m would likely be a good length.

I think to extend the London to Crewe would be a good idea, would give some competition to Virgin from Liverpool to London, I always find the fares high from Runcorn , it would be nice to have some choice and more capacity.

 

[sd0733]

I have always found LM service pretty good, so its a shame there going. I'd like to see more car parking at Acton Bridge, its very small and often full in the week, with options for on the road parking limited. One thing LM was good at is, should a service calling at Acton Bridge happened to be cancelled, the next service would make an unscheduled stop, which I for one appreciated greatly. I don't know if this is commonplace with every TOC in the country, but well done LM anyway.

Yes control have always been pretty good at the to be fair. We would often get special stop orders handed down.
The same people are likely to remain in control so a lot of what they do is likely to remain unless they are prevented doing so by directives from above!

 

[sd0733]

A few interesting bits in this bbc article for the stoke area. 12 car crewe-Londons mentioned as well as no changes to onboard staffing levels.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40886873

 

[driver_m]

Given that I was one such person, do you actually know where I hail from? (Clue: that very city).

All I said was that I think the hourly London service is adequate apart from needing an earlier first and later last train. I didn't say the Liverpool to Brum service should be cut to hourly, though I could see an argument for it to be changed from two semifasts to one fast (Crewe, Stafford, Wolves, New St) and one stopper, possibly the latter being an extension of the London to Crewe service which I think would be quite popular, doing something else with the "orphan" Crewe-Brum bit.

FWIW I also think the VT Manchester service should be cut to half-hourly with the stock/staff so released used to increase to 4tph in the peaks (including the "off peak peaks" of Friday evening and Sunday afternoon) in the direction of flow.

FWIW I have seen it overcrowded or busy more often than not. It's also very unreliable. So more stock (and staff) would assist here. 5x24m would likely be a good length.

If you think they should go half hourly you'd mess up the timetable completely. I don't know how often you go back to the North West but I work here and your views on what you think we should have are completely at odds with what actually happens. 1 train Liverpool to Birmingham would be completely inadequate. I've often had to stand on these regularly even with the half hourly service. If anything, I'd reroute one an hour via Bank Quay to get Northwich a genuinely Northerly link, and St Helens some southbound connections. Lime St should ideally get it's long distance XC services back to to have genuinely fast services to Brum
The service wouldn't work properly if only one Manchester train went via Stoke as there's be knock on effects elsewhere on the line due to them having to stop at Macclesfield and MK. Current service works fine. As for the fresh air arguement. I don't see fresh air, I see plenty of passengers on them.

Not every train is going to be full, we all know that, but the services at Liverpool and Manchester need increasing and to more destinations to the Midlands and beyond.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Reports of a major timetable recast at Birmingham New Street next December, see attached link.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40886873

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reason Liverpool to Birmingham is overcrowded is simply because the trains are too short, a problem seen throughout the provincial railway. They need to go much longer before a frequency increase is even considered.

 

[313103]

A few interesting bits in this bbc article for the stoke area. 12 car crewe-Londons mentioned as well as no changes to onboard staffing levels.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40886873

So if what he said is true about no changes on board, the current status quo will exist. Or perhaps he is saying there will be a member of staff present but will have no operational duties! When you here what one has to say about the future one has to read between the lines.

The dft and the meddling in the method of DOO by creating the oxymoron DCO has created a can of worms, but it has done to fool the public. So as a pessimist who has heard all this rhetoric before, DOO will come in dressed up as DCO.

 

[Class172]

The reason Liverpool to Birmingham is overcrowded is simply because the trains are too short, a problem seen throughout the provincial railway. They need to go much longer before a frequency increase is even considered.

Indeed, and in some cases, frequencies can't be increased due to infrastructure constraints so the only option is to extend the trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, and in some cases, frequencies can't be increased due to infrastructure constraints so the only option is to extend the trains.

Really, that should be the first option. Our tendency to run 2, 3 and 4-car units around the place at high frequencies at the expense of reliability is really very silly (TPE especially, where the 6th train is nothing but sheer madness). The short DMU and EMU need to die, now. We need to start running minimum 5x23m or 6x20m, probably even longer in most cases, by default on anything that isn't a rural branch line.

 

[northwichcat]

Really, that should be the first option. Our tendency to run 2, 3 and 4-car units around the place at high frequencies at the expense of reliability is really very silly (TPE especially, where the 6th train is nothing but sheer madness).

The 6th train per hour will be just a replacement for 2 existing local stopping services.

I notice there's always people saying 6tph between Manchester and Leeds via Huddersfield is too many but never anyone saying 8tph between Milton Keynes and London is excessive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you noticed the difference in the number of tracks? And also how many of the trains are long ones?

 

[Morgsie]

I was watching Midlands Today Thursday 10.30pm one and it was reported that reopening the Camp Hill line is back on the agenda

 

[northwichcat]

Have you noticed the difference in the number of tracks? And also how many of the trains are long ones?

But there's a considerable number of 4 car 350s which aren't much longer than 185s and we keep hearing the argument "We need HS2 because the WCML is full"

 

[Bletchleyite]

But there's a considerable number of 4 car 350s which aren't much longer than 185s and we keep hearing the argument "We need HS2 because the WCML is full"

The use of 4-car 350s is not sensible and happens only because the per-mile deal for the use of the 350/2s is too expensive to use them at the level of income you can obtain from off-peak tickets. This is why the 350/2s are quite likely to be got rid of (or the deal renegotiated). Most of the time, except at very quiet times of day when frequencies are reduced, a 4-car set is inadequate and will end up with standing passengers at some point during its journey.

You're also forgetting that the WCML's primary job is not moving people between Milton Keynes and Euston (though I have a feeling that that actually is the biggest single flow).

It is to be hoped that 4-car operation will cease entirely with the new franchise.

 

[The Planner]

Reports of a major timetable recast at Birmingham New Street next December, see attached link.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40886873

That is probably a bit grandiose, it isn't going to be a re-write, its too late for that already.

 

[northwichcat]

You're also forgetting that the WCML's primary job is not moving people between Milton Keynes and Euston (though I have a feeling that that actually is the biggest single flow).
....
a 4-car set is inadequate and will end up with standing passengers at some point during its journey.

And the primary purpose of LM Euston services isn't to carry all the passengers who don't want to pay Virgin's peak time prices. Using your earlier logic Milton Keynes-London should have something like 2 LM services an hour using 12 car 350s or equivalent alongside some Virgin services and some peak time extras. I've been on an afternoon peak northbound 4 car 350 from Euston and while 4 cars were inadequate, 6 or 7 x 20m carriages would have been sufficient for that service, so 12 cars on all services would allow for less frequent, longer trains you were talking about earlier.

North TPE carries a number of passengers for Birmingham and London who change at Manchester, Leeds and York. Isn't it better for frequent connections to Intercity services to Birmingham and London, rather than trying to provide direct services from everywhere to Birmingham and London?

 

[Class 170101]

Ah, so the rumour I heard the other day about the franchise winner reinstating regular Worcester-Gloucester services isn't true. Shame.

I didn't think it was possible to path it.

This Coventry Telegraph article appears to suggest that Abellio are looking at through services between Nuneaton and Leamington from December 2018:

I am surprised given the discussion previously had on this board that a path has been found.

Does anyone know what the premium payment / subsidy profile is? I have yet to find anything with it mentioned.