Advantages and Disadvantages of driverless trains?

[Up_Tilt_390]

Driverless trains are mostly a thing of the self-contained rapid transit systems such as the DLR, London Underground, Paris Metro and Dubai Metro etc., though driverless mainline trains aren't entirely beyond the reach of technology, though it would be very difficult in practice. Maybe I'm wrong and that driverless trains are only workable for self-contained dedicated systems though.

But what are the particular advantages and disadvantages of driverless trains? One advantage that is often cited is that it can increase capacity not just on the trains but also the routes because of it's automation, but with this comes a disadvantage in that should a problem arise, the computer needs a human to fix it. Not to mention, computers won't know whether there is a person on the line or not. It could be cheaper to run though because there's no need to pay £30-50k salaries for all of the drivers, but there's the psychological effect as well for passengers.

Most trains that are said to be driverless aren't strictly unmanned either, just remember that bit. But are there any other advantages and disadvantages to driverless trains? Discuss...

 

[Domh245]

One advantage I can think of is that in the event of disruption, you wouldn't have to worry about displaced crews to quite the same extent as you do currently, especially if they all just revert to passenger service roles. Just set the train up to head off as soon as the disruption clears and away it goes, no waiting for a member of staff to arrive on a massively delayed train from the other side of a blockage, having a PNR, and then heading back out again.

 

[deltic]

On Paris Metro some advantages they found is the ability to put on extra trains at short notice in the off-peaks eg due to a sporting event or concert and being able to stable trains along the line at the end of the day reducing need for stabling space

 

[zn1]

Having now used the Dubai Metro which is uses automated units, i can honestly say that i felt completely safe on every train i used, hey are fast, the trains stop on every station exactly with platform doors, there are driver controls which can be used in emergency.

Their Metro and trams (which require drivers due to the nature of humans and their car driving) are also clean, safe with no issues. Even on the elevated section where the stops are at the end of a drop, due to extensions being planned - i felt safe, i trusted my train to look after me...

Access to the Metro P-WAY is controlled by monitored alarmed doors at every station - the operators have got a plan in place for almost every situation

You can get on the Dubai metro from Radishyia(DXB) and you find welcoming place to the city you are in.

 

[InOban]

They also eliminate the health and safety issues relating to shift work.

 

[BantamMenace]

Computer software can also be tailored to be more efficient in throttle usage and therefore fuel burn/electricity usage, again saving cost.

Disadvantage would be during the roll-out. At current with everything human controlled, fine. At the end with everything computer controlled, fine. The time it takes you to move from the current state to the end state would be massively complex given very few services are self contained without using lines also used by other services.

 

[47802]

Are their psychological effects for passengers, I have never had a problem with driverless trains, obviously there is the potential employment issue especially more so with Driverless road vehicles but that's a different discussion really, plus of course less likely hood of a militant left wing union going on strike and disrupting the system.

 

[Eccles1983]

having now used the Dubai Metro which is uses automated units, i can honestly say that i felt completely safe on every train i used, hey are fast, the trains stop on every station exactly with platform doors, there are driver controls which can be used in emergency, drivers are fast becoming obselete. their Metro and trams (which require drivers due to the nature of humans and their car driving) are also clean, safe with no issues. even on the elevated section where the stops are at the end of a drop, due to extensions being planned - i felt safe, i trusted my train to look after me..

Aye I agree.

Just cough up the close to 100bn quid to pay for all the changes and drivers can call it a day.

Don't hold your breath waiting though, I mean today I went past a signal controlled by wire and a man in a box with a bell. And then took a token in a purse off another man.

That whilst driving a train that was designed and built by the lowest bidder over 30 years ago.

But yeah, them pesky drivers best beware.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Are their psychological effects for passengers, I have never had a problem with driverless trains, obviously there is the potential employment issue especially more so with Driverless road vehicles but that's a different discussion really, plus of course less likely hood of a militant left wing union going on strike and disrupting the system.

Not everyone feels particularly comfortable with a driverless train you see. I think the psychological effect would apply more to potential mainline driverless services. But then that's the least of the worries when you consider that mixed traffic railways have varying speeds with trains. I don't think it's far fetched to achieve it, but still...

 

[deltic]

While it is difficult to see existing overground rail lines converting to driverless - can see all new metros being driverless and gradual conversion of existing metros, i.e. following example of Singapore

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I'll be retired by the time it gets to the mainline. They don't want to invest in anything other than the white elephant called HS2, let alone the rest of the mainline network and electrification projects.

So good luck with the notion of having driverless trains running at high speed on the mainlines.

 

[Billy A]

.....Most trains that are said to be driverless aren't strictly unmanned either, just remember that bit. But are there any other advantages and disadvantages to driverless trains? Discuss...

There are genuinely unmanned trains out there though. Paris Metro trains on their two (and counting) automated lines are not staffed. There's nobody on the train except the passengers. The service as a whole is not of course unstaffed so one of the advantages touted for automation - less vulnerability to strikes - doesn't really hold true.
The advantages are fewer staff and more trains per hour.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

There are genuinely unmanned trains out there though. Paris Metro trains on their two (and counting) automated lines are not staffed. There's nobody on the train except the passengers. The service as a whole is not of course unstaffed so one of the advantages touted for automation - less vulnerability to strikes - doesn't really hold true.
The advantages are fewer staff and more trains per hour.

And what happens when it gets FUBAR?

 

[387star]

Paris metro has wide tunnels all stations have doors stations close hardly like main line
To be honest I didn't feel that safe down there on line 1

 

[HarleyDavidson]

It will be quite interesting to see what would happen (and probably will) if hackers break into the control systems of a driverless system and start playing with the route locking and stuff like that.

 

[Billy A]

And what happens when it gets FUBAR?

Like I said, the service isn't unstaffed (the headcount on Line 1 went from 240 to 30, not nil). Trains can be driven manually although you wouldn't know to look at them as you can sit at either pointy end and not see any controls (they're tucked away behind panels). If an individual train should decide it's had enough of going by itself somebody can therefore shift it. If it's really, really broken they have emergency locos for the want of a better word.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Like I said, the service isn't unstaffed (the headcount on Line 1 went from 240 to 30, not nil). Trains can be driven manually although you wouldn't know to look at them as you can sit at either pointy end and not see any controls (they're tucked away behind panels). If an individual train should decide it's had enough of going by itself somebody can therefore shift it. If it's really, really broken they have emergency locos for the want of a better word.

It's never going to happen within the next 20 years or so on the mainline, there's more chance of ERTMS coming into being on the mainlines than driverless mainline trains.

 

[pdeaves]

you wouldn't have to worry about displaced crews...
if they all just revert to passenger service roles...
no waiting for a member of staff to arrive on a massively delayed train from the other side of a blockage, having a PNR, and then heading back out again.

except if trains have someone on board in a public service role, you'd have to wait for them to arrive, have a PNB, etc., etc.

 

[sirjojo]

It will be quite interesting to see what would happen (and probably will) if hackers break into the control systems of a driverless system and start playing with the route locking and stuff like that.

nothing is perfect, most systems on the train are computer controlled anyway. computers don't sulk, have bad days, suffer fatigue, get distracted, over sleep, run late, get stuck in traffic, go sick, go on strike etc

Tell me, how many rail incidents / accidents have been caused by computer failure as opposed to human error?

 

[Domh245]

except if trains have someone on board in a public service role, you'd have to wait for them to arrive, have a PNB, etc., etc.

True, but there is less dependency on them being the right one for that service. If they just have to smile, check tickets and flog things from a trolley, it doesn't matter if they don't sign a particular route - they don't have to worry about that.

Alternatively, it sound like one of those exceptional circumstances when "we can run it without a conductor any staff onboard when it might have otherwise been cancelled" so that passengers aren't inconvenienced.

 

[yorkie]

As I said last time this cropped up:

If you want to travel on a driverless train in the UK, get yourself to the Docklands. You probably won't see a driverless train on National Rail [main lines] for several decades.​

And I stand by that. Metro-style operations, yes. But but it's ludicrous to start thinking about driverless operation throughout the network including our main lines in the foreseeable future, so there really is no point getting into arguments over it.

Up tilt 390 - Have you read any of these threads? There is a lot of reading material that will keep you busy for a while...

• Driverless trains - why limited progress on the national rail network? (2017)
• Driverless Technology (2016)
• Dublin may go for Driverless Trains Technology on Metro North (2016)
• Automated Driverless Trains (2015)
• Train Driving and Automation (2015)
• Will London Overground go automatic in the near future? (2015)
• Driverless trains report (2014)
• Driverless trains - when? (2013)
• Will the Tyne and wear metro go ATO? (2013)
• Driverless Underground Trains (2012)
• Driverless Train Technology in London? (2012)
• Should other cities have driverless systems similar to DLR? (2012)
• My idea for Sheffield to London to become driverless (2012)
• Would You Support a Driverless Railway? (2011)
• Automatic Train Operation (2010)
• 'Driverless' trains specified for Thameslink rail upgrade (2009)

We do ask people be respectful (and realistic!) when they discuss this subject.

 

[route:oxford]

And what happens when it gets FUBAR?

Then you replace the component with the failed UniBus.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Then you replace the component with the failed UniBus.

Very good for ½8 in the morning!

 

[irish_rail]

Just an example (that featured in the ch5 documentary Paddington a few weeks back...)

I was driving along the b and h when I saw a cow lurking in the bushes alongside the track. There is no way a computer would of spotted this. I rang the signaller and reported it. The next train was thus cautioned through and lo and behold said cow (s) were now totally blocking the line but of course driver was going slow enough to stop.
We all know the potential consequences of collisions with trains and cows .
Just one example where driverless would in my opinion be a disaster on mainlines (metros perhaps a different kettle of fish)

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Just an example (that featured in the ch5 documentary Paddington a few weeks back...)

I was driving along the b and h when I saw a cow lurking in the bushes alongside the track. There is no way a computer would of spotted this. I rang the signaller and reported it. The next train was thus cautioned through and lo and behold said cow (s) were now totally blocking the line but of course driver was going slow enough to stop.
We all know the potential consequences of collisions with trains and cows .
Just one example where driverless would in my opinion be a disaster on mainlines (metros perhaps a different kettle of fish)

Exactly and we've seen in the past the problems that the railway has encountered with obstacle detection systems, particularly on level crossings, so gawd knows how they'd deal with a cow or anything else whilst travelling at the higher speeds of a train.

I know that some cars have detectors on and they seem to work a little erratically especially at this time of year with leaves blowing around as they can detect a leaf on the sensor as an obstacle and it goes into panic mode and put the brake hard in.

 

[irish_rail]

Plus how does a detection system reliably differentiate between a deer say and a human? What about track workers? Throw in the brakes everytime it encounters one of them?
A none starter on the mainline I think thankfully.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Very much so. Unfortunately due to the low level of intelligence of the populace along certain stretches of route we have to keep our Mk1 eyeballs glued to the track for bikes, pushchairs, traffic bollards & cones, wheelbarrows, space hoppers, wheelie bins.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Now that we've elaborated one particular disadvantage, let's go back to listing some other (dis)advantages and possibly elaborating on them. For me I'd like to know how the advantage of extra capacity results from removing the driver?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Now that we've elaborated one particular disadvantage, let's go back to listing some other (dis)advantages and possibly elaborating on them. For me I'd like to know how the advantage of extra capacity results from removing the driver?

None other than you might get a 2-4 extra seats where the cab was, the problem you have with that is, if then the supervisor or whoever is on there for emergency purposes then overrides things and takes control, they're no longer in an enclosed & secure environment and as such could then be threatened by a loony with a knife or gun whilst at the controls. Could get messy!

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

None other than you might get a 2-4 extra seats where the cab was, the problem you have with that is, if then the supervisor or whoever is on there for emergency purposes then overrides things and takes control, they're no longer in an enclosed & secure environment and as such could then be threatened by a loony with a knife or gun whilst at the controls. Could get messy!

Not capacity in that regard. I mean in the amount of trains running...