Advice Only for Greater Anglia - Delay Repay Fraud

[Tazi Hupefi]

Submitted them personally. Also of relevance to the thread, it was a paper ticket, not a smartcard.

It probably doesn't make much difference. I think clearly they are doing something with ticket barrier data. Presumably there is enough information printed on a ticket to make it unique enough to identify and track?

E.g. if ticket number 12345 is used at Kings Cross at 17:00, and then 12345 appears at Peterborough at 18:00, probably the same ticket, and you can then work out what train they most likely took.

 

[jumble]

Maybe GA have invested in a computer program that now throws out like confetti the obvious candidates for extra attention whereas previously the cost of manually verifying everything was not worth the return
If I am correct it is an interesting consequence that one computer makes it trivial to find out what delays occur and another one makes it trivial to catch those who abuse the system as a result of the first computers output.


( just like HMRC insist that all submitted tax returns are of a consistent type which makes comparison with other similar businesses turnover vs profit trivial

 

[357]

I'd pay a reasonable amount just to get it to go away as I've found this incredibly stressful straight away. Given I haven't travelled for a year I've saved a lot of money. Maybe that's what they want

Do NOT do this if you have done nothing wrong. Your card will be marked for the future.

It probably doesn't make much difference. I think clearly they are doing something with ticket barrier data. Presumably there is enough information printed on a ticket to make it unique enough to identify and track?

E.g. if ticket number 12345 is used at Kings Cross at 17:00, and then 12345 appears at Peterborough at 18:00, probably the same ticket, and you can then work out what train they most likely took.

My understanding is that this sort of data is impossible to be collected or checked with magnetic tickets, but is easily available with smartcards

Remember also that the magstripe normally stops working after a couple of weeks, and most people never bother getting a replacement but get let through the gates by gateline staff.

 

[Jo78]

Barriers are often open, especially on evening trains where there is no staff in the station. I definitely don't tap if the barrier is open. If I've been out drinking for the evening then I certainly wouldnt even contemplate it.
I also always aim for the queue where a guard was letting people through as it was always quicker than having to tap as they just hold the barrier open rather than needing to let it shut after everyone one.

I'd pay a reasonable amount just to get it to go away as I've found this incredibly stressful straight away. Given I haven't travelled for a year I've saved a lot of money. Maybe that's what they want

I agree, I’m finding it very stressful as I’ve also been suffering with severe anxiety during lockdown and this pandemic. I’ve also had occasions where they’ve said they are carrying out further checks on my claims and they’ve either rejected or approved them so why now? They’ve got more time on their hands and their revenue is down. I use a paper ticket which 9 times out of 10 doesn’t work. Paper season tickets stop Working shortly After issue. My home station has no barrier or no guards. Trying to remember what I did last week now let alone 12 months or more.

 

[Jimmyd84]

Do NOT do this if you have done nothing wrong. Your card will be marked for the future.


My understanding is that this sort of data is impossible to be collected or checked with magnetic tickets, but is easily available with smartcards

Remember also that the magstripe normally stops working after a couple of weeks, and most people never bother getting a replacement but get let through the gates by gateline staff.

I'm not getting another season ticket so if i use the train at all it'll only be on dated tickets as I'll be keeping as much evidence as I can if I ever make a claim again. If your card is marked then if you're doing nothing wrong what difference would marking it make?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I agree, I’m finding it very stressful as I’ve also been suffering with severe anxiety during lockdown and this pandemic. I’ve also had occasions where they’ve said they are carrying out further checks on my claims and they’ve either rejected or approved them so why now? They’ve got more time on their hands and their revenue is down. I use a paper ticket which 9 times out of 10 doesn’t work. Paper season tickets stop Working shortly After issue. My home station has no barrier or no guards. Trying to remember what I did last week now let alone 12 months or more.

As unhappy as you may be, I think you need to adjust your attitude a little to resolve this properly.

Given that they've prepared letters, presumably on the back of investigation and case work, and the fact they are happy to refer to the police, (at which point they'd get no revenue, except as compensation ordered by the court), indicates to me that this is not a revenue generating exercise.

Nobody seems to have been even asked to do anything more than potentially repay the value of the suspicious claims, which seem to be for trivial amounts. Has anyone been asked to suggest a settlement figure of any significance?

I'm afraid even if you repaid £10,000 to a train operator, it's a negligible / insignificant amount to them in the scheme of the economy at the moment, so I'm pretty certain a few £5 compensation claims being repaid isn't primarily intended to be a money making exercise!

 

[Jimmyd84]

As unhappy as you may be, I think you need to adjust your attitude a little to resolve this properly.

Given that they've prepared letters, presumably on the back of investigation and case work, and the fact they are happy to refer to the police, (at which point they'd get no revenue, except as compensation ordered by the court), indicates to me that this is not a revenue generating exercise.

Nobody seems to have been even asked to do anything more than potentially repay the value of the suspicious claims, which seem to be for trivial amounts. Has anyone been asked to suggest a settlement figure of any significance?

I'm afraid even if you repaid £10,000 to a train operator, it's a negligible / insignificant amount to them in the scheme of the economy at the moment, so I'm pretty certain a few £5 compensation claims being repaid isn't primarily intended to be a money making exercise!

They've not mentioned any figures other than the amounts of claims they listed in the letter.

If they just want to prosecute people then these letters would only serve to get people to admit something they could use against you. They are saying they could ask you to repay amounts but not offering an amount up front you're being asked to pay. They also haven't asked you to make a financial offer. If they have no intention to do anything other than prosecute then their letters would appear to be under false pretences and surely fraud as well. I am therefore assuming a paying something is a genuine option.

I've asked them what evidence they want, how much the settlement would be overall and on an individual basis if I can't find the evidence they're after for every claim. They ignored anecdotal evidence I gave so i don't know what evidence I would have to support anything.

 

[packermac]

I guess if other people tapped in and tapped out at the same station around the same time it would be very suspicious if there was no data available for one particular person especially in the context of Delay Repay.

Even if the ticket barriers were open, does anyone know whether this is logged or audited anywhere? I'm thinking if the data shows that they were closed between certain times, you couldn't really claim you'd simply walked through.

I regularly when I lived in West London take a late evening train from Paddington to Hayes. Gates on P12 usually open, most just walked through, Hayes at that time (maybe still) just touch out no barriers. No idea how many may have been season holders after a night out, but most did not bother.
Not sure barriers really give "evidence" even if some do bother to touch in and out.

 

[Jimmyd84]

They have now made an offer to settle but they have not given any information on how to challenge any of their claims or what evidence they would require for those claims or future ones. The overall settlement amount is the only question they answered.

 

[HSP 2]

They have now made an offer to settle but they have not given any information on how to challenge any of their claims or what evidence they would require for those claims or future ones. The overall settlement amount is the only question they answered.

Have they gave you details about which journeys you are suppose to have travelled on?

 

[221129]

they have no concrete evidence

That you know of.

 

[Jimmyd84]

Have they gave you details about which journeys you are suppose to have travelled on?

No, just a handful in the original letter. I can get hold of a list of the claims I've made as you can do that online and I may still have the email confirmation for each claim.

The larger claims would be easier to prove as I would have messages or emails saying the train is late etc... but for a 15min or even 30min delay I wouldn't have bothered telling anyone. All I could potentially do is prove I was in a location on that day and that is only if I'd bought something or had an ID pass checked at an office. I couldn't get most of that data and I certainly don't spend money every day I travel if I did it may have been cash.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

How much is the settlement if you don't mind sharing?

I think you need to take a pragmatic view here. If you believe that any of your claims may even be potentially dubious/incorrect, it would be sensible to consider paying.

If you are as sure as you can possibly be that not a single claim is or was untrue or misleading, you shouldn't pay.

Only you know the truth. We can't assist you there unfortunately.

Bear in mind that you do not have an automatic right to disclosure of evidence at this stage, as is common in most criminal investigations. Law enforcement are quite happy for suspects to dig their hole, and then produce evidence that makes it difficult to get back out of said hole.

 

[Jo78]

I’ve had a letter from GA telling me that some delay repay claims look suspicious, with a list of 5 or 6 claims from February/March 2020 and asking for an explanation within seven days.

1) is it reasonable at this stage to ask them for details as to why they think the claims are suspicious?
2) are there any similar threads on here that I can’t see - or does anyone have experience of dealing with this? Any signposting/guidance appreciated.

As a (previous) 4/5 day a week commuter I obviously can’t remember delays from almost a year ago. Thanks in advance.

Have you had a reply yet?

 

[AlterEgo]

If that is the case a lot of enthusiasts could be getting letters from different TOCs due to the very nature of how we travel.

No, because one-off journeys on single or return tickets are much less likely to arouse suspicion. The issues uncovered in this thread are around habitual patterns of claiming for

Maybe GA have invested in a computer program that now throws out like confetti the obvious candidates for extra attention whereas previously the cost of manually verifying everything was not worth the return
If I am correct it is an interesting consequence that one new computer program makes it trivial to find out what delays occur and another one makes it trivial to catch those who abuse the system by using the first computers output


( just like HMRC insist that all submitted tax returns are of a consistent type which makes comparison with other similar businesses turnover vs profit trivial

I would be really surprised if some sort of computer algorithm was in use here. Staff process delay repay claims and the names of very frequent and suspicious claimants would be known by everyone in the office. At one TOC I worked for there was a list of suspected fraudsters.

Honestly, if you’ve ever processed delay repay as a staff member you know the ones that stick out as being fishy. That doesn’t mean everyone - or ever anyone - in this thread has been defrauding GA, but it’s worth bearing in mind that a human has probably had a good look at all these claims and decided to ask for more information

 

[Jo78]

i have received the same letter today and i'm worried sick i have replied explaining i used a website called Delay Repay Genie which i paid a subscription to they would then email me delays i could claim on as i have a season ticket - now i'm worried that i was doing the wrong thing. can this go to court and i end up with criminal record?

Have you had a reply yet?

 

[joharry]

Have you had a reply yet?

yes this morning listing the ones they believe are wrong - asking me how i would like to proceed. As i don't know how to respond i have asked a lawyer. did you ask someone?

Have you had a reply yet?

can anyone who had a letter tell me who signed it off please? (the person)

 

[Jimmyd84]

How much is the settlement if you don't mind sharing?

I think you need to take a pragmatic view here. If you believe that any of your claims may even be potentially dubious/incorrect, it would be sensible to consider paying.

If you are as sure as you can possibly be that not a single claim is or was untrue or misleading, you shouldn't pay.

Only you know the truth. We can't assist you there unfortunately.

Bear in mind that you do not have an automatic right to disclosure of evidence at this stage, as is common in most criminal investigations. Law enforcement are quite happy for suspects to dig their hole, and then produce evidence that makes it difficult to get back out of said hole.

It's around £650 which is under 1 months season ticket amount. From the list they sent there is one I know there's an error on but it was a year ago so I have no idea what the correct date should be. Normally when I make a mistake they reject it and I correct it. I did ask how long do I have to find the evidence and what evidence is needed but they didn't answer so I have no idea if I can find the necessary evidence to support every claim. As they didn't give me the full list of the disputed claims I'd have to check every one of them as well

 

[AlterEgo]

I got one of these letters too. I responded with some details about ones I could remember highlighting the time that had passed and the barriers are often open at both stations.

I got this response this morning:
We have completed the investigation in to your case and have looked at your delay repay claims over the last 15 months and compared this to your smartcard data to verify the claims.

There are numerous days where claims have been submitted and there is no data for you travelling. There are legitimate claims that do match up but too many occasions where there is no data for you travelling.

Please let me know how you wish to proceed. Thanks.

They haven't referenced anything in my email, haven't queried or challenged anything I've said.

Does your season ticket validity finish at a station like Liverpool Street, or is it a Travelcard?

 

[joharry]

It's around £650 which is under 1 months season ticket amount. From the list they sent there is one I know there's an error on but it was a year ago so I have no idea what the correct date should be. Normally when I make a mistake they reject it and I correct it. I did ask how long do I have to find the evidence and what evidence is needed but they didn't answer so I have no idea if I can find the necessary evidence to support every claim. As they didn't give me the full list of the disputed claims I'd have to check every one of them as well

can i ask have they asked you to pay £650 and thats the end of the matter? did you get a letter that you responded to?

 

[AlterEgo]

As an interesting data point regarding claiming at different times of day, I have a friend (honestly, yes, it's not me!) who keeps meticulous records of the journeys they make on their season ticket, which are very often at different times of day.

Between June 2019 and March 2020 (working from home since then) they submitted 21 delay repay claims for journeys on their season ticket, across multiple TOCs, and these were for 18 differently timed trains (in the morning between 08:00 and 10:00, one claim at around lunchtime, and in the evening between 17:00 and 23:00). With Greater Anglia it was 10 claims for 9 differently timed trains. They've not received the letter from Greater Anglia that is being discussed in this thread.

Just to throw a little experience into the mix, such a pattern, including only 18 claims over 365 days, would seem entirely normal to me and certainly not something I would question if I was working for a TOC.

I wonder how many claims over a year some of our new posters here made.

 

[Jo78]

yes this morning listing the ones they believe are wrong - asking me how i would like to proceed. As i don't know how to respond i have asked a lawyer. did you ask someone?


can anyone who had a letter tell me who signed it off please? (the person)

yes this morning listing the ones they believe are wrong - asking me how i would like to proceed. As i don't know how to respond i have asked a lawyer. did you ask someone?


can anyone who had a letter tell me who signed it off please? (the person)

No I haven’t replied yet. I’m waiting for a lawyer to ring me.

 

[Puffing Devil]

An observation for the many letter recipients in this thread: This is not a private, encrypted, WhatsApp/Signal/Telegram chat. This is a public forum that will be read and consumed by many people in the industry. Without a doubt, someone in a prosecutions department is trawling this thread with great interest and a wry smile on their face.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

can i ask have they asked you to pay £650 and thats the end of the matter? did you get a letter that you responded to?

Generally my understanding is that you pay the out of court settlement, usually on the basis that you accept full responsibility, and undertake not to take similar action against them in the future, and the matter is then closed, unless you crop up again in the future.

I would not be at all surprised, however, if you find some sort of marker put against you which somehow indicates that your claims may need closer attention, but that would be something purely within the rail industry and you wouldn't need to worry about that.

 

[Jo78]

An observation for the many letter recipients in this thread: This is not a private, encrypted, WhatsApp/Signal/Telegram chat. This is a public forum that will be read and consumed by many people in the industry. Without a doubt, someone in a prosecutions department is trawling this thread with great interest and a wry smile on their face.

Oh I’m sure

 

[Titfield]

Just to throw a little experience into the mix, such a pattern, including only 18 claims over 365 days, would seem entirely normal to me and certainly not something I would question if I was working for a TOC.

I wonder how many claims over a year some of our new posters here made.

If one looks at the published punctuality data one can get a very good idea of what an average passenger would experience in terms of the % of services that are delayed to the point a delay repay could be claimed and made.

I would venture to suggest that if anyones claim record in terms of % journeys being delayed was significantly higher (using standard distribution theory) then that would be looked at in greater detail by the TOC. That is not to say that such a sequence of events wasnt possible just improbable. The more journeys a passenger undertakes the higher the probability that their experience will be close to the average.

If all the claims that a person made were collated then some idea of the travel pattern and ticket type the passenger held could be gained and thus be used in consideration of their claims record. For example if a passenger held an annual season ticket it is a reasonable assumption that the person travelled or intended to travel at least 4 days per week.

 

[glitterjo]

Hello - I've just joined because I too have received a letter from GA today!

I emailed immediately and I've been sent examples of journeys they say are fraudulent from January this year and November 2019. Am very alarmed. Of the five examples they sent, two are in 2019 so I need to find my diary from then (if I even still have it), one I can see what the issue is (I claimed for a late train late at night and exited my home station earlier in the evening BUT i had run back there to pick something up I needed for a work thing and was driven down to the event by someone I know who was also going there! And then got the train back). One I am genuinely certain is wrong and I have a photo from that date, on the train, which I sent to a Whatsapp group at the time I should have been on the train I claimed for. There's also one train that I'm so so sure was delayed (first day back at work and I remember moaning to my husband about it when I got home!)

One I cannot explain at all. I was working in a different city on the date of the claim. So I can only think I've put the wrong date in?

The November 2019 ones look quite dodgy too - I mean, I know I wasn't claiming fraudulently, I think it must be a human error on my part but I'm also aware that there's no way that isn't going to sound like me making excuses. They've got me tapping out at times I said I was on a train and it's hard to argue with that, isn't it?

The email said they had more examples so I've asked them to send them through but I'm not at all sure what to do next. It's all a bit 'my word against your data' and if it's not correct then I guess I should pay it back - BUT i wouldn't have put in a claim if I wasn't on a delayed train so it doesn't really make sense.

 

[Jimmyd84]

Does your season ticket validity finish at a station like Liverpool Street, or is it a Travelcard?

Finishes at Liverpool Street

 

[glitterjo]

Just to throw a little experience into the mix, such a pattern, including only 18 claims over 365 days, would seem entirely normal to me and certainly not something I would question if I was working for a TOC.

I wonder how many claims over a year some of our new posters here made.

This is so interesting - I don't have records of how many claims I've made but I just looked at my bank statements and over the same period I had 41 payments from Delay Repay. I commute (or did!) five days a week, and at quite varying hours - usually heading into London early morning and either heading back early evening or very late night (and sometimes zipping back and forth again twice in one day). Sometimes at weekends too for work.

Does that seem really excessive in terms of claims? It feels about right in terms of delayed journeys to me but perhaps that's why it's been flagged up, if it's really a lot?

 

[Jimmyd84]

can i ask have they asked you to pay £650 and thats the end of the matter? did you get a letter that you responded to?

Yes, they said that was to close the case