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Advice Only for Greater Anglia - Delay Repay Fraud

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Tazi Hupefi

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Actually my husband thought it was a scam. I’m going to report it to my MP for what he’s worth. To explain this behaviour by GA when people are suffering all kinds of mental health, anxiety issues, job losses etc during this time. The claims were paid at the time and they are querying them 18 months later. It’s despicable to be honest.


What 18 months later and all at the same time. They’ve started this to clear a gap in their plunging revenue stream. If they could prove beyond reasonable doubt you were not delayed then fine they would just do that. We have come here for some help and guidance.
I'm afraid you clearly have your mind made up, and I fear emotion is going to be your husband's undoing.

You should be seeking legal advice if you dispute the issue, not an MP. 18 months is no time at all in legal terms. It's actually quite quick for a fraud investigation, especially when a pandemic has likely been disruptive to them as well as you.

You will also likely find little sympathy from your MP in any event, who cannot interfere or influence criminal investigations. I suspect they would also be supportive of the train operator in any event, as the railways are heavily tax payer funded, especially now, and there is a duty on the private operators to minimise fraud and recover their losses.
 
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eoff

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If you actually read the pages, you will find that I have explained already why a fraud investigator would permit suspicious claims to be approved in this situation, it provides an opportunity to observe those that customers that go on to repeatedly abuse it, whilst filtering out those making a one-off error. A honeytrap of sorts.
One person claims that they were confused by what to enter in the form. So you could argue that continuing to allow claims could remove the opportunity for someone to be told their claims were invalid meaning they rack up more and more invalid claims.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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One person claims that they were confused by what to enter in the form. So you could argue that continuing to allow claims could remove the opportunity for someone to be told their claims were invalid meaning they rack up more and more invalid claims.
You have several people (regular commuters with season tickets, not occasional travellers) who so far have accepted variously;

1) Selecting the wrong train on multiple occasions
2) Incorrectly selecting 120 minutes delay compensation on multiple occasions
3) Making claims for compensation when they were not even at the station.
4) Not understanding how delay repay works
5) In some cases subscribing to some sort of third party tool that basically produces a list of the most valuable delayed trains.

Some members here have chosen to settle, 2 so far. Others were clearly minded to do so.
 

Jo78

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I'm afraid you clearly have your mind made up, and I fear emotion is going to be your husband's undoing.

You should be seeking legal advice if you dispute the issue, not an MP. 18 months is no time at all in legal terms. It's actually quite quick for a fraud investigation.

You will also likely find little sympathy from your MP in any event, who cannot interfere or influence criminal investigations. I suspect they would also be supportive of the train operator in any event, as the railways are heavily tax payer funded, especially now, and there is a duty on the private operators to minimise fraud and recover their losses.
I find your replies very condescending. New members have come here for help and advice and too see if there is a pattern to these letters, which there is. I merely referred to my MP as to advise not get involved in my case. My MP has been involved already with the shoddy service we continually receive and has been down to meet with commuters several times. As another poster put to remember your whereabouts in London 18 months ago is almost possible. We all have different working hours, go out after work, the list is endless. Thank you
 

John R

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You mean the taxpayer should fund even more services to cart around fresh air?

Doesn't seem at all unreasonable seeing as though several people on this forum alone accept they've done something wrong (whether fraudulent, accidental or mindless). I think some people are quite lucky to be getting a letter rather than a knock on the door from the police, for passengers who presumably travelled regularly with season tickets, and obviously became familiar with the delay repay claims process, several of you have displayed surprising naivety if not something more suspicious.

If you actually read the pages, you will find that I have explained already why a fraud investigator would permit suspicious claims to be approved in this situation, it provides an opportunity to observe those that customers that go on to repeatedly abuse it, whilst filtering out those making a one-off error. A honeytrap of sorts.

In everyday life, in England and Wales, the civil claim period is generally 6 years. So a TOC (in a civil procedure) can come after you for up to 6 years to recover the money theoretically. In criminal proceedings for fraud, there is no limit in the Crown Court.

You made a formal demand for compensation by using Delay Repay, and the TOC agreed to settle on the basis that everything you say is accurate, factual and representative of your experience. If they find out that was not the case, at any point, I do not feel it is unreasonable to seek an explanation, and if necessary, recover request a financial settlement themselves. Applying for compensation using the delay repay scheme should never be seen as a simple, casual matter. It's a legal process, and both you and the TOC have responsibility and liability. I can guarantee the TOC kept all their records, so you should to.
I disagree with the last point, in respect of the time period with which these claims are now being reopened. I don’t believe it is reasonable, without having made it abundantly clear at the time of settlement, that you need to keep sufficient records to evidence your claim for such a long period after the claim has been accepted, just in case the TOC revisits the claim.

Most people would reasonably consider the matter concluded once their claim has been settled, and whilst I wouldn’t dispose of any evidence/records immediately, I certainly wouldn’t keep it for 18 months. And how would I know to stop at 18 months? Would I still need to have a big box of notes, photographs etc after 10 years?
 

NSB2017

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12 Jun 2018
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I note this from last year:


"As well as uniformed Revenue Protection Inspectors, Greater Anglia also employs plain clothes Fraud Investigations Officers who use the latest technology and systems to detect fraudulent activity, specialising in travel fraud, such as delay repay fraud rings."

Which predates the March lockdown, so perhaps suggesting this is all fishing to give people a job to do might be a little wide of the mark.

I'm also reminded of this thread:

 

Fawkes Cat

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I have emailed AH today and just told the truth. What more can I do? He replied, very politely, explaining the situations and the incidents in question and I have paid up (plus an admin fee). It is all sorted now and I understand the error when I was submitting my claim.

Thanks for letting us know this. If you can tell us without giving away too much about yourself, what terms did you settle on? I can imagine a number of possibilities:

- the Delay Repay (DR) that had been paid to you for all the journeys that Greater Anglia (GA) mentioned in their first letter
- the DR for some of the journeys that GA mentioned in the letter
- as above plus a small admin fee (say somewhere between nothing and £50)
- as above plus a larger admin fee (maybe up to £250)
- as above plus a big admin fee
- a smallish round sum (maybe something up to £100)
- you get the idea, but maybe something else I haven't thought of.

If you do feel able to share this information, it may help others in a similar situation know what they're likely to face, which may help them decide on whether they will engage with GA or fight them.
 

talldave

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24 Jan 2013
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I only keep any "delay" ticket until Delay Repay is received, then it's shredded. I'd have no way of confirming travel details 18 months later.
 

robbeech

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Given all the references to your train for delays under 60 minutes, I think it is their own fault if people are keying in how late their train is, instead of the delay to their journey.

I am not a lawyer and this post is not legal advice
I suspect you’d be able to argue this point in court without too much hassle, although it likely wouldn’t be worth it.
I sense this is a 'fishing' exercise by GA as let's face it the staff must be sat waiting for the tap on the shoulder atm. But sinse I have no way of proving I was on x train on x date, I will agree a settlement to just close the matter.
And we are back round in circles again to guilty until you prove you are innocent. You can’t prove you was on the train, a simple and likely routine journey you made over a year ago. They have offered no proof you were not on the train, so you’re guilty of fraud. And there’s a whole stack of forum members that consider that perfectly acceptable.
 

AlterEgo

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I probably could prove it with appointment letters or meeting agendas in the 28 days or whstever to make a claim but I do not remember being told I need to keep that prove for a year or more.

I agree that fake claims should be rejected but sure they should be rejected not paid and then challenged long after evidence will be disposed of. I also disagree that we should have to go to stations for trains we know to be cancelled, or go early for delayed trains, else what is point of train running info apps, including some by TOCs.
Delay Repay works mostly on honesty
I have been following this thread with interest as I too received the 'letter' recently. At first I thought it was a mate on a wind up as it was printed on flimsy paper with scanned letterhead and not stamped via franking machine. Upon querying it I was provided with a list of the DR claims made, but not the ones they considered fraudulent.

My claims were made direct via GA, not 'genie' or whatever, and I had season tickets in paper form, not smartcard. I also commute from a rural station with no barriers.

Now, I can't remember what I did yesterday, nevermind a train journey year ago. I do about 500 train journeys a year. Some claims may well have been erroneous, but they were rejected at the time. It's likely there were services I DIDN'T claim for; I'm not the type that rushes on to the DR site the minute I get home after a delay. As a season ticket holder I could if I wanted to travel up and down the line all day. Whilst in reality I don't, it shouldn't be for GA to decide that I MUST get the same train to/from London each day, and every claim due to a diversion from such travel pattern is assumed to be fraudulent.

I sense this is a 'fishing' exercise by GA as let's face it the staff must be sat waiting for the tap on the shoulder atm. But sinse I have no way of proving I was on x train on x date, I will agree a settlement to just close the matter.

As others on this forum will attest, the GA service was an absolute shambles at times last year - cancellations, short-formed trains, speed-restrictions etc - so of course there would be an uptick in claims.
If I intended to defraud GA I wouldn't be doing it via a few snide £3 claims for a 15 min delay. I'd simply get on at my station (no barriers, remember), then when I got to London hop on the DLR and alight barrier-free. £5,000 saved p.a.

Why would you agree a settlement with GA if you have only ever claimed in good faith?
 

Chew Chew

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I like your reply and true. We purchase season tickets like everyone else and don’t have to travel in the peak times. As I’ve said I work to GA I work for a US firm and lawyers need us to be there for 8am, weekends, to 11pm, meet and greet for seminars and entertainment, all of which is optional for staff and I am on such rota. My doctor and dentist is in my home town, which I attend and just days where I’ve felt unwell in the morning and gone in later. It’s almost a forgone conclusion on Monday mornings after engineering works the train is cancelled.
Why are you quoting and replying to yourself like you are responding to someone else?
 

pelli

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Me too. My first name is J but not my surname and there is nothing fishy going on. We are individuals who have had these letters. Today I received a spreadsheets of those in question from October 2019 to March 2020, I use a branch line which weekly has delays and cancellations on the branch line. When analysing the spreadsheet one stood out that was evident that would look suspicious.this was a day I went into the office as the US law firm always have cover day and night, weekends and xmas. On that day I purchased a daily ticket to Stratford as I used the tube to St. Paul’s. I was working until 11pm, as I say regular for me, left work at 10;45 walked down to bank, tapped my Oyster card. Platform busy as signal fault And no trains moving on central line so went back up escalator tapped out and almost ran all the way to Liverpool Street. The 11:02 was delayed so I tapped my oyster as my ticket with GA was Stratford/witham and problems with the train, driver didn’t turn up for some time. I purchased a daily as I was flying to Singapore the next day. Yes to someone this does look odd as I always use Liverpool Street and it was late at night. I’ve logged onto my oyster account as it will show me tapping in at bank at 10:50 and back out at 10;52 and then after 11 at Liverpool Street. I am tired after a long day at work and just want to get home so wasn’t prepared to wait for the central line to Stratford.

I like your reply and true. We purchase season tickets like everyone else and don’t have to travel in the peak times. As I’ve said I work to GA I work for a US firm and lawyers need us to be there for 8am, weekends, to 11pm, meet and greet for seminars and entertainment, all of which is optional for staff and I am on such rota. My doctor and dentist is in my home town, which I attend and just days where I’ve felt unwell in the morning and gone in later. It’s almost a forgone conclusion on Monday mornings after engineering works the train is cancelled.

Why are you quoting and replying to yourself like you are responding to someone else?

Reading the context of the quoted messages it's likely they mistakenly quoted their own message rather than the one they intended to reply to. Looking at the messages in between one possibility is that they meant to quote this:

I have been following this thread with interest as I too received the 'letter' recently. At first I thought it was a mate on a wind up as it was printed on flimsy paper with scanned letterhead and not stamped via franking machine. Upon querying it I was provided with a list of the DR claims made, but not the ones they considered fraudulent.

My claims were made direct via GA, not 'genie' or whatever, and I had season tickets in paper form, not smartcard. I also commute from a rural station with no barriers.

Now, I can't remember what I did yesterday, nevermind a train journey year ago. I do about 500 train journeys a year. Some claims may well have been erroneous, but they were rejected at the time. It's likely there were services I DIDN'T claim for; I'm not the type that rushes on to the DR site the minute I get home after a delay. As a season ticket holder I could if I wanted to travel up and down the line all day. Whilst in reality I don't, it shouldn't be for GA to decide that I MUST get the same train to/from London each day, and every claim due to a diversion from such travel pattern is assumed to be fraudulent.

I sense this is a 'fishing' exercise by GA as let's face it the staff must be sat waiting for the tap on the shoulder atm. But sinse I have no way of proving I was on x train on x date, I will agree a settlement to just close the matter.

As others on this forum will attest, the GA service was an absolute shambles at times last year - cancellations, short-formed trains, speed-restrictions etc - so of course there would be an uptick in claims.
If I intended to defraud GA I wouldn't be doing it via a few snide £3 claims for a 15 min delay. I'd simply get on at my station (no barriers, remember), then when I got to London hop on the DLR and alight barrier-free. £5,000 saved p.a.
 

GreenTea

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Some users on here are coming across as aggressive. I came on here for advice about the letter and to find out what other people have done. I feel like I have accused of trying to pull a fast one on GA when I was trying to claim back money for cancelled/delayed trains in what I thought was the correct way. I have never used 'Genie' or 'Bot' algorithms to highlight trains that have run late.

Someone earlier said about people inputting the claim incorrectly and racking up more errors. That is what I have done. I didn't know I was incorrectly filling out the form. One section is 'train delayed or cancelled' (I would put cancelled) and the next section was 'how long was the delay?' (you could choose up to 15 mins/15-30 mins/30 mins-one hour etc... I chose 120 minutes as I thought that is what best represented a cancelled train. I didn't know it meant how long I was delayed. I have admitted my error and paid up. I had to pay for all DR overpayments in the letter + more (there was text in the letter in red saying there were more), of varying costs plus the Admin fee (Less than £100) which was based on the number of errors, I think.
 

cakefiend

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You made a formal demand for compensation by using Delay Repay, and the TOC agreed to settle on the basis that everything you say is accurate, factual and representative of your experience. If they find out that was not the case, at any point, I do not feel it is unreasonable to seek an explanation, and if necessary, recover request a financial settlement themselves. Applying for compensation using the delay repay scheme should never be seen as a simple, casual matter. It's a legal process, and both you and the TOC have responsibility and liability. I can guarantee the TOC kept all their records, so you should to.
That is a ridiculous statement. No reasonable person would keep records of journeys made for six years on the off chance that the train operator later decides seems dubious. While people are often creatures of habit, it's not unusual for people to change travel plans.

Now, assuming that people use the Delay Repay system in good faith, most would assume the matter to be closed upon the claim being approved.
 

Fawkes Cat

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I had to pay for all DR overpayments in the letter + more (there was text in the letter in red saying there were more), of varying costs plus the Admin fee (Less than £100) which was based on the number of errors, I think.
Thank you. This may help others understand what they are facing.
 

island

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Why would you agree a settlement with GA if you have only ever claimed in good faith?
For the same reason as TOCs sometimes settle cases that they believe they could win – because the cost (financial, time, emotional, or otherwise) of seeing it through to the end is greater than the cost of settling.
 

HSP 2

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What I would like to know is if the TOC has payed out for the delay at the time, does that mean that they did not check the claim correctly in the firs place?
IIRC we as customers only have 28 days in which to put the claim in to the TOC. The TOC can proceed with the claim for how long before paying out? One rule for one and another for the other.
If the TOC is going to produce these claims up to 18 months back maybe they should only think about the cost of the rail ticket and not impose the admin fee. ( due to the staff having time available to do it ).
 

jumble

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Some users on here are coming across as aggressive. I came on here for advice about the letter and to find out what other people have done. I feel like I have accused of trying to pull a fast one on GA when I was trying to claim back money for cancelled/delayed trains in what I thought was the correct way. I have never used 'Genie' or 'Bot' algorithms to highlight trains that have run late.

Someone earlier said about people inputting the claim incorrectly and racking up more errors. That is what I have done. I didn't know I was incorrectly filling out the form. One section is 'train delayed or cancelled' (I would put cancelled) and the next section was 'how long was the delay?' (you could choose up to 15 mins/15-30 mins/30 mins-one hour etc... I chose 120 minutes as I thought that is what best represented a cancelled train. I didn't know it meant how long I was delayed. I have admitted my error and paid up. I had to pay for all DR overpayments in the letter + more (there was text in the letter in red saying there were more), of varying costs plus the Admin fee (Less than £100) which was based on the number of errors, I think.
This outcome will hopefully give great comfort to those who were scared by the blatant scaremongering talk of 12 Months at Her Majesties Pleasure.
 

packermac

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I have no sympathy for customers who knowingly abuse the system and likewise have no issue with a TOC running an audit process.
However what as someone who has never even travelled GA since they took over this does seem bizarre
A system that does not ask users to keep records and specify for how long for, but then expects people to remember (and somehow prove) what happened over a year afterwards. These are individuals, not a company having to follow a Document Retention Policy.
Are GA only "going after" season ticket holders as they are far more likely not to know what they were doing on x date and time. Also is this a deliberate victimisation of their regular customers?
I have only ever claimed DR twice (from SWR) and I have no idea of the dates although I could probably track one down as it was linked to a railtour.
Most of my rail travel is as a mainline steam steward, and without reference to the internet or the timing sheet of the day I would not even be able to remember the dates or delays of those, and lets phase it these are a bit more of an event rather than a day to day commute.
I have seen it posted that GA staff read this thread, well I hope so because if this is a result of your audit process, too little to late springs to mind, and at my company (non rail) you would have had some pretty poor performance reviews.
 

43096

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You have several people (regular commuters with season tickets, not occasional travellers) who so far have accepted variously;

3) Making claims for compensation when they were not even at the station.
So, seeing as you're quite the expert... Two scenarios:
1. I have a season ticket and walk 10mins to the station. I can see that the train I am going to catch and the ones after it for a couple of hours are cancelled as I can look at RealTimeTrains/TOC website/wherever before I leave for the station. By your reckoning I have to go and stand at the station for 2hrs like an utter lemon. I'm going to stay at home until they start running again - is that not a valid DR claim for you?
2. There's an incident on the line which means everything is being turned round at the station after mine. I have important meetings to go to, so I drive to the next station and catch the train I would have caught which runs on time because I can see from the aforementioned websites what is happening in time to jump in the car to get there. Obviously I am not late. But I am out of pocket as I pay for fuel and car parking for the day. What can I claim for, and how do I go about it?
 

clagmonster

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So, seeing as you're quite the expert... Two scenarios:
1. I have a season ticket and walk 10mins to the station. I can see that the train I am going to catch and the ones after it for a couple of hours are cancelled as I can look at RealTimeTrains/TOC website/wherever before I leave for the station. By your reckoning I have to go and stand at the station for 2hrs like an utter lemon. I'm going to stay at home until they start running again - is that not a valid DR claim for you?
2. There's an incident on the line which means everything is being turned round at the station after mine. I have important meetings to go to, so I drive to the next station and catch the train I would have caught which runs on time because I can see from the aforementioned websites what is happening in time to jump in the car to get there. Obviously I am not late. But I am out of pocket as I pay for fuel and car parking for the day. What can I claim for, and how do I go about it?
Case 1, I would sit it out and claim. I have noticed though that Northern sometimes publish details of replacement transport on Journey Check, no idea about other TOCs when this happens, so I would check there as well.

Case 2, by the book no delay claim. However you have been inconvenienced and put out of pocket so I would write in to the Customer Relations department.
 

43096

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Case 1, I would sit it out and claim. I have noticed though that Northern sometimes publish details of replacement transport on Journey Check, no idea about other TOCs when this happens, so I would check there as well.
Ah, but where would you sit it out? On the platform or at home? Because "Tazi Hupefi" says we must be at the station.
 

GreenTea

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Case 2: What if I am at the same station as 43096 and whereas he jumps in his car to go to the next station, I don't have a car, so have to wait for the next train, which could be hours. Should I be compensated in this circumstance even though 43096, who wanted the same train as me, isn't (in your opinion) entitled to a claim?

I'm not being flippant - just a genuine question. Is it done on a case by case basis?
 

Djgr

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It should be remembered that a typical TOC only pays out 37% of what customers are entitled to through Delay Repay.

This makes you wonder who the real villain of the piece is.

Perhaps they could denote the other 63% to charity?
 

SteveM70

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Ah, but where would you sit it out? On the platform or at home? Because "Tazi Hupefi" says we must be at the station.

Wherever is most comfortable. Don’t lose sight of the root cause - the TOC has inconvenienced you, so anything you can do to minimise that is fair game.
 

jon0844

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So, seeing as you're quite the expert... Two scenarios:
1. I have a season ticket and walk 10mins to the station. I can see that the train I am going to catch and the ones after it for a couple of hours are cancelled as I can look at RealTimeTrains/TOC website/wherever before I leave for the station. By your reckoning I have to go and stand at the station for 2hrs like an utter lemon. I'm going to stay at home until they start running again - is that not a valid DR claim for you?
2. There's an incident on the line which means everything is being turned round at the station after mine. I have important meetings to go to, so I drive to the next station and catch the train I would have caught which runs on time because I can see from the aforementioned websites what is happening in time to jump in the car to get there. Obviously I am not late. But I am out of pocket as I pay for fuel and car parking for the day. What can I claim for, and how do I go about it?

1. If you aren't at the station, you're not giving the TOC an opportunity to reduce the delay, such as using a taxi/bus/stop order*. I think it's a grey area, as I can see how you might choose to stay home to avoid a delay or inconvenience, and perhaps the T&Cs need to be made clearer to remove any ambiguity. Otherwise this is massively open to fraud, as anyone can claim they had a meeting at an odd time or whatever.

2. As said by someone else, you can't make a delay repay claim (there was no delay!) but you can write in to customer services and seek a gesture of goodwill payment, at least for the parking if not the fuel (likewise for a bus you might have got without ticket acceptance). They may or may not pay it, but - again - you didn't give them a chance to sort the issue because you weren't at the station.

* As I said before, there might be exceptional circumstances like a code black situation where everything is stopped - but in such cases, you'd likely have no issue or suspicion with a claim so it doesn't really apply.
 

43096

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1. If you aren't at the station, you're not giving the TOC an opportunity to reduce the delay, such as using a taxi/bus/stop order*. I think it's a grey area, as I can see how you might choose to stay home to avoid a delay or inconvenience, and perhaps the T&Cs need to be made clearer to remove any ambiguity. Otherwise this is massively open to fraud, as anyone can claim they had a meeting at an odd time or whatever.

2. As said by someone else, you can't make a delay repay claim (there was no delay!) but you can write in to customer services and seek a gesture of goodwill payment, at least for the parking if not the fuel (likewise for a bus you might have got without ticket acceptance). They may or may not pay it, but - again - you didn't give them a chance to sort the issue because you weren't at the station.

* As I said before, there might be exceptional circumstances like a code black situation where everything is stopped - but in such cases, you'd likely have no issue or suspicion with a claim so it doesn't really apply.
I've never, ever known them to provide buses at 0630. In any case, the TOC website usually has updates about buses being sourced or whatever - far more use than the PIS at the station that just says "Delayed".
 

Llanigraham

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That is a ridiculous statement. No reasonable person would keep records of journeys made for six years on the off chance that the train operator later decides seems dubious. While people are often creatures of habit, it's not unusual for people to change travel plans.

Now, assuming that people use the Delay Repay system in good faith, most would assume the matter to be closed upon the claim being approved.

Ridiculous or not it is what the Law allows; you can go back 6 years for most Laws and for fraud there is no time limit.
 

jon0844

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I've never, ever known them to provide buses at 0630. In any case, the TOC website usually has updates about buses being sourced or whatever - far more use than the PIS at the station that just says "Delayed".

My point is, you won't know what arrangements have been made/are being made if you aren't there to speak to staff/use a help point. If you made a claim and they know there was another train that made an unbooked stop, you might be asked to explain yourself.

Now if you can argue a defence then that's fine, as there are clearly going to be situations where everything stops and there's no alternative (indeed, in some cases, it might be a case of 'do not travel' entirely).

I've been in situations where a train has been cancelled, and another service stops (at short notice, because that's how it's going to be) that runs faster and normally overtakes the train I'd have been on. If I stayed home, checked the train, saw it cancelled and then made a claim on the basis that the next timetabled train was an hour later, I might expect to be asked why I didn't take the train that turned up.
 
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