"All Creatures Great and Small" series 5

[Calthrop]

Regarding historical accuracy in TV programmes, perfectly valid points made above, however it is rather irritating when the blurb for a new series says something like 'the producers consulted military experts to get the WW2 uniforms exactly right' but when a train appears it is hauled by a BR Standard!

It's a thing which strikes me as comical -- and would appear maybe not altogether uncommon -- how in on-film "historical drama": great lengths are gone to, in quest of getting certain matters as near totally right as possible; but as regards other matters (frequently, it would seem, railway ones) -- very much not so. In the 2017 thread Errors you've noticed in films, which I cite in post #5: the TV series Heartbeat comes in for a good deal of "stick" over this issue. Posters lament the producers' being meticulous about "the right Corn Flake boxes, and accurate prices in the pub"; and their having "a flock of sheep specifically for the show, which were swapped with the usual ones for filming, as the breeds had changed since the 60s"; while perpetrating flagrant rail-related howlers such as "passenger trains on a North Yorkshire branch line are hauled by a Schools running tender-first"; and "an A4 in Express Passenger Blue, a regular performer through Aidensfield -- a bit overkill for the four Mk 1's it was hauling"; and an episode set at the time of the moon landing in July 1969, but featuring what clearly represented a regular passenger steam working -- er, the very end of BR steam took place nearly a year previously.

Different people will have different responses to this kind of thing: some find it, basically, just too trivial to matter; some are genuinely aggrieved and incensed; some enjoy the comedic aspect of the anachronisms and errors... nonetheless, it does seem at least a bit odd, the way certain makers of these offerings are hyper-conscientious and diligent re the authenticity of some elements; and highly slapdash, concerning that of others.

 

[Calthrop]

I have a similar "cringe" moment when I see some heritage lines advertising their "faithful recreation" for Revival events of 1943-45: of immaculately dressed troops, an impeccably attired Churchill (he must have visited so many small railway stations!)

(I'm at a loose end) -- re Churchill: maybe, for necessary recreation from his arduous job of leading against the odds, to WW2 victory -- in addition to his well-publicised painting; perhaps he was something of an enthusiast for charming rural railways: an avocation which he kept quiet, with its being rather looked down on by the cool types -- he didn't want, in this connection, to be unfavourably compared with Hitler, who -- one of his very few slightly endearing traits -- was a keen "petrol-head".

 

[Sun Chariot]

(I'm at a loose end) -- re Churchill: maybe, for necessary recreation from his arduous job of leading against the odds, to WW2 victory -- in addition to his well-publicised painting; perhaps he was something of an enthusiast for charming rural railways: an avocation which he kept quiet, with its being rather looked down on by the cool types -- he didn't want, in this connection, to be unfavourably compared with Hitler, who -- one of his very few slightly endearing traits -- was a keen "petrol-head".

I can imagine Churchill shouting into the sky at the Luftwaffe. "Oi - I hadn't got that one ticked off in my ABC and now you've bombed it!"

 

[Calthrop]

I can imagine Churchill shouting into the sky at the Luftwaffe. "Oi - I hadn't got that one ticked off in my ABC and now you've bombed it!"

"Quid pro quo: delightful 750mm gauge line Lingen -- Berge -- Quakenbrueck -- it's curtains for you !" (In real life, that one lasted until 1952.)

 

[midland1]

The area around Thirsk is quite flat the series is set in the Dales so very much LMS territory.

 

[DelW]

Regarding historical accuracy in TV programmes, perfectly valid points made above, however it is rather irritating when the blurb for a new series says something like 'the producers consulted military experts to get the WW2 uniforms exactly right' but when a train appears it is hauled by a BR Standard!

Indeed the coaches shown in one of the screenshots in post 10 look suspiciously like BR mk1 profile to me. Doors at every bay suggest possibly some of the ex Kings Cross suburban stock that went to a number of preserved lines in the early 1970s?

Not that it matters to the story at all!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What WW2 period stock does the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway actually have available to hire out to the TV production company?

 

[Peasmould]

I presume that the K&WVR normally has LMS boards fitted to their stations, or at least available for nostalgia days, so these are all within the agreed price. If they wanted LNER ones, they would have to be specially made and add to the budget. And most viewers wouldn’t notice or know the difference.

Thanks Gloster. I understand, although they could have just covered the prominent "LMS" st the top of the boards with black-painted pieces of wood or black plastic. "LNER" wasn't needed. They know how to do that neatly at next to no cost.

I suspect younger people were in charge and no one realised that "LMS" was a strong regional thing. Had they known, they may have done this simple black cover up. Perhaps they should consider consulting a railway historian when they set up these scenes. The goal cannot be perfection - for example finding the exact locomotive and carriages operating on the lines around Thirsk in ~1943 and getting them on the line going through the best station, may not be possible. But they can approximate and get something that isn't too far off the "look and feel" for the time period and the region.

 

[D6130]

The area around Thirsk is quite flat the series is set in the Dales so very much LMS territory.

Most lines in the Yorkshire Dales were ex-North Eastern and later LNER routes. East of the Settle & Carlisle, the Midland/LMS only had Hawes Junction (now Garsdale)-Hawes and Skipton-Grassington and Illkley. The fictitious village of Darrowby was supposed to have been based on Askrigg....the station for which was located on the NER/LNER Northallerton-Hawes Wensleydale Line.

 

[Peasmould]

Still struggling to definitively confirm which real life station stood in for "Brawton" in the new re-imagining of the series.

Can anyone assist?

View attachment 173552
(Brawton station. Or is it?)

Yep, mcr Warrior,
I've looked at the independently posted pictures of Oakworth, and compared to series 5 ep. 3 pictures posted here. The 2020-2025 Brawton is definitely Oakworth in real life. Many thanks to John Webb, who kindly identified it for us.

And the suitcase is always empty!

Yes Steve!! That always gets me. I have literally seen hundreds of tv programmes and movies where people lift suitcases that are supposed to be loaded, but which are clearly empty. I feel insulted every time. They could so easily do better than that. Donlt they know how stupid it looks. Put anything in, so it doesn't spoil our engagement in the story.

 

[simonw]

Yep, mcr Warrior,
I've looked at the independently posted pictures of Oakworth, and compared to series 5 ep. 3 pictures posted here. The 2020-2025 Brawton is definitely Oakworth in real life. Many thanks to John Webb, who kindly identified it for us.

Yes Steve!! That always gets me. I have literally seen hundreds of tv programmes and movies where people lift suitcases that are supposed to be loaded, but which are clearly empty. I feel insulted every time. They could so easily do better than that. Donlt they know how stupid it looks. Put anything in, so it doesn't spoil our engagement in the story.

Mr Mr warrior was,making a joke as it clearly shows "oakworth" below "brawton" in the picture he posted.

 

[Calthrop]

Yes Steve!! That always gets me. I have literally seen hundreds of tv programmes and movies where people lift suitcases that are supposed to be loaded, but which are clearly empty. I feel insulted every time. They could so easily do better than that. Donlt they know how stupid it looks. Put anything in, so it doesn't spoil our engagement in the story.

I'll confess that reading this, makes me feel glad that I'm by nature, not very observant. I'd never notice such a matter on film ! Am suspecting that unobservant-ness perhaps makes my life happier than it would otherwise be...

 

[Cowley]

I'll confess that reading this, makes me feel glad that I'm by nature, not very observant. I'd never notice such a matter on film ! Am suspecting that unobservant-ness perhaps makes my life happier than it would otherwise be...

Yep. I’m always going to be looking out for empty suitcases from now on, so thanks for that @Peasmould.

 

[sprinterguy]

Indeed the coaches shown in one of the screenshots in post 10 look suspiciously like BR mk1 profile to me. Doors at every bay suggest possibly some of the ex Kings Cross suburban stock that went to a number of preserved lines in the early 1970s?

Not that it matters to the story at all!

Yep, it's the KWVR's rake of BR Suburban stock. Given that similar stock was built by the LMS pre-WW2 and nationalisation, it seems like a reasonable facsimile of a generic train of that era with the operational stock that's available; more so, I would say, than the ubiquitous standard BR Mark 1 corridor stock that otherwise crops up so often in these sorts of productions, regardless of time period.

 

[Peasmould]

As well as the railway scenes, I've wondered how accurate or inaccurate are the classic buses which appear in ACGAS?

Both the 1970/80s and the 2020s series have a number of episodes where characters are arriving and leaving Darrowby by a vintage single-deck bus. Obviously, it's someone's preserved bus hired in for the production. I suspect the earlier series always used the same vehicle, while the more recent programmes use another, different bus.

Presumably the vehicles are more or less representative of the late 1930 - 40 - 50s era on country routes - it's not an area where I have any knowledge.

I'm always amazed (old and new series) by the immaculate, highly polished appearance of these buses on all occasions. Especially during WW2 and its aftermath, when Britain's buses became increasingly shabby and poorly maintained.

Obviously the owners of these preserved vehicles keep them in tip-top condition for the next bus rally, but maybe the filmmakers could have added a bit of temporary 'weathering' in the name of authenticity (Tongue-in-cheek, of course, they're not going to do that - a clean, shiny bus adds to the "good old days" ambience).

And, as with @Gloster's sentiment about the trains "just be thankful it wasn’t malachite Green with GWR noticeboards" - at least we didn't see a London Transport RT trundling through the Yorkshire Dales.

Oh, and another oddity - a couple of times, the Darrowby-bound passenger and his suitcase has been deposited at some remote, moorland crossroads and faced with a long, lonely walk from there to his destination. If Darrowby really was a decent-sized market town, as it is portrayed, surely any country bus would actually go there! All part of telling a good tale, I suppose.

Yes, the historic bus appeared in this episode as well, to take the Herriot parents on the start of their journey back to Glasgow. It looks pristine of course. "Blythe and Berwick Ltd, ... Bradford" on the back. Here are a couple of shots, side and back. Maybe there's is a "bus spotter" among us who can comment on how well this fits into the Dales in 1943! It probably cost less, both then and for the production now, than to drive them to a station and see them off on a train!

 

[Peasmould]

Surely time for a crossover series: 'The Railway Children return All Great and Small'.

Regarding historical accuracy in TV programmes, perfectly valid points made above, however it is rather irritating when the blurb for a new series says something like 'the producers consulted military experts to get the WW2 uniforms exactly right' but when a train appears it is hauled by a BR Standard!

Yes. Checking the credits, they had both a "Military Historical Adviser" and a general "Historical Consultant" on board.

The latter was Dr Mark Roodhouse who was educated both at Cambridge and Oxford and is now a Leverhulme Research Fellow and Fellow of the Royal Historical Society at the University of York. He focuses on the economic and social history of modern Britain, especially black markets, underground economies and the informal sector. He's written a book: Black Market Britain: 1939-1955 (Oxford University Press), which was runner-up for the 2013 Whitfield Book Prize (Royal Historical Society). Now he's writing a second book about organised crime in mid-twentieth-century Britain. So perhaps not so much on the history of transportation?

 

[Gloster]

There would have been plenty of old buses around at the time, some of them dragged out and repaired to cater for all the forces traffic (Thirsk was in ‘Bomber Country’): a 1927-dated bus would probably look pretty tatty, but we prefer the nostalgia of shining paintwork… Blythe & Berwick had long become part of the West Yorkshire Road Car and so it would probably not have strayed to Thirsk on stage work, but might be on loan. This particular bus was not available: it was under the jackboot in Jersey at the time.

Do remember that this is an area that I and many of you reading this are interested in, but few know the details: I had to look them up. To most viewers and the production team it looks nice and is an old bus…and from the same county.

 

[Sun Chariot]

To Gloster's point: "To most viewers and the production team it looks nice and is an old bus…and from the same county" -
That does seem the approach taken by TV and also Revival events alike. A restored bus is a restored bus and has kerb appeal.
After all, what's more appealing - a beautiful bus, albeit a bit "generic", or or a grubby but "age accurate" one? I wager the former.
Here, at last year's Southwick 1940s Revival, I'm certain the second and fourth buses are too "new" for wartime.

 

[Falcon1200]

To most viewers and the production team it looks nice and is an old bus…and from the same county.

One of the last episodes of 'Endeavour' featured a City of Oxford bus-load of passengers stranded in winter; As I noticed, and quite a few people pointed out on Facebook, the bus shown was a type never used in Oxford! Despite there being some lovely ex-Oxford buses preserved at the Museum at Hanborough.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

One of the last episodes of 'Endeavour' featured a City of Oxford bus-load of passengers stranded in winter; As I noticed, and quite a few people pointed out on Facebook, the bus shown was a type never used in Oxford! Despite there being some lovely ex-Oxford buses preserved at the Museum at Hanborough.

'Morse' had the advantage over 'Endeavour' of being set in the then present day. So any bus, car or train featured was historically accurate for the Oxford of the period.

 

[Peasmould]

There would have been plenty of old buses around at the time, some of them dragged out and repaired to cater for all the forces traffic (Thirsk was in ‘Bomber Country’): a 1927-dated bus would probably look pretty tatty, but we prefer the nostalgia of shining paintwork… Blythe & Berwick had long become part of the West Yorkshire Road Car and so it would probably not have strayed to Thirsk on stage work, but might be on loan. This particular bus was not available: it was under the jackboot in Jersey at the time.

Do remember that this is an area that I and many of you reading this are interested in, but few know the details: I had to look them up. To most viewers and the production team it looks nice and is an old bus…and from the same county.

Many thanks for the research, Gloster. This is very interesting, especially the quirk of where this bus actually was in 1943.

 

[Gloster]

Not really a railway question, but one related to the TV series. I haven’t got a TV so I don’t know whether the current series is sanitised in comparison to the 1970s series, of which I saw some episodes. Do the actors just wander around a few photogenic animals or do they, as I think they did in the 1970s, at least simulate putting their arm up a cow’s rear end and other realities? We can’t really expect too much of the depictions of the railway if they have gone all twee and nostalgic.

 

[Cowley]

Do the actors just wander around a few photogenic animals or do they, as I think they did in the 1970s, at least simulate putting their arm up a cow’s rear end and other realities? We can’t really expect too much of the depictions of the railway if they have gone all twee and nostalgic.

For the life of me I can’t remember where I heard it now, but I don’t think they always simulated that bit…

(5 minutes of strange googling later)

Edit - We’ll have to go with the AI overview on this one:

In the original All Creatures Great and Small series, vets would sometimes roll up their sleeves and put their hands in cows' rear ends to check on or extract calves. However, in the 2020 TV series, actors worked with a combination of live animals and animal prosthetics to avoid unnecessary discomfort to the animals

My algorithms are going to pay for this!

 

[Gloster]

For the life of me I can’t remember where I heard it now, but I don’t think they always simulated that bit…

I looked it up afterwards and it seems that Christopher Timothy did go where no actor has gone since.

 

[Cowley]

I looked it up afterwards and it seems that Christopher Timothy did go where no actor has gone since.

Yep.

 

[geoffk]

One of the last episodes of 'Endeavour' featured a City of Oxford bus-load of passengers stranded in winter; As I noticed, and quite a few people pointed out on Facebook, the bus shown was a type never used in Oxford! Despite there being some lovely ex-Oxford buses preserved at the Museum at Hanborough.

It was a London Routemaster. Apparently bus depot scene which featured in the same episode was filmed in the Hanborough museum!

 

[swt_passenger]

I looked it up afterwards and it seems that Christopher Timothy did go where no actor has gone since.

It was a London Routemaster. Apparently bus depot scene which featured in the same episode was filmed in the Hanborough museum!

I couldn’t help seeing those two replies together. Ouch…

 

[Sun Chariot]

I couldn’t help seeing those two replies together. Ouch…

Standing room only in the bottom