Alstom celebrating 20 years anniversary of Voyager's introduction

[AlistairCowell]

I don’t recall at some of the other ends of the route but I do recall them ORCATs raiding scotrail with 1 train every 2 hours to Dundee.

if I recall the have lots of disabled toilets as they were supposed to be 3 classes. Never got off the drawing board (thank goodnes)

That's correct, the Voyagers was to have a third class with 2+3 seating and would have been called 'Virgin Value Class'. That would have been a nightmare to travel in that class on a long journey had it been put forward. Luckily that did not happen because it would have been a number of drawbacks. At the end of the day the Virgin Value Class was just Branson's stupid idea.

I actually did a thread about that last year:

Virgin Trains proposed Virgin Value Class

In the late 1990s, Virgin Trains was initially planning to have three classes for passengers for the then new Voyager and Pendolino trains, which they were in the drawing board at the time. There were going to be First Class (Club Class in Voyagers), Standard Class, and a cheap no-frills class...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well Avanti are replacing theirs with the Hitachi class 805 and 807 units they have on order. But it seems almost inevitable that their 20 Super Voyagers will then be cascaded to XC; the DfT underwrote the lease for 30 years I believe, so they'll be paying for them either way.

Not sure about the DfT Section 54 agreement.
It would have been for the original Virgin (WC+XC) franchise deals, which were 15 years, the XC balance being transferred to Arriva when the franchise was re-let.
With short-term franchise extensions and direct awards you get to the situation today.
I'm not sure what leasing arrangements are currently in place - Arriva can't make any commitments until XC's longer term future is known, and Avanti will only be leasing 221s until 2023.
It's the Hitachi IEP fleets which have the 27.5 year usage agreement.

 

[Bayum]

That's correct, the Voyagers was to have a third class with 2+3 seating and would have been called 'Virgin Value Class'. That would have been a nightmare to travel in that class on a long journey had it been put forward. Luckily that did not happen because it would have been a number of drawbacks. At the end of the day the Virgin Value Class was just Branson's stupid idea.

I actually did a thread about that last year:

Virgin Trains proposed Virgin Value Class

In the late 1990s, Virgin Trains was initially planning to have three classes for passengers for the then new Voyager and Pendolino trains, which they were in the drawing board at the time. There were going to be First Class (Club Class in Voyagers), Standard Class, and a cheap no-frills class...

www.railforums.co.uk

You say that... Haven't Avanti gone and done just that on West Coast?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Still feels very strange to see the Alstom name in front of these!

Mechanically they've certainly been a success when you compare them to the rival Class 180 made by, ahem, Alstom... I assume Alstom won't be celebrating their 20th anniversary

Given the choice, I'd rather spend three hours on a 180 than a Voyager.

Perhaps one day someone will design a train that satisfies both the passengers and the bean-counters... until then, we can but hope!

 

[Mikey C]

Given the choice, I'd rather spend three hours on a 180 than a Voyager.

Perhaps one day someone will design a train that satisfies both the passengers and the bean-counters... until then, we can but hope!

The problem with the 180s isn't the bean-counters, it's the terrible reliability.

In another world the 175 and 180s would have been well built and reliable, and Washwood Heath still in business

 

[hexagon789]

I don’t recall at some of the other ends of the route but I do recall them ORCATs raiding scotrail with 1 train every 2 hours to Dundee.

if I recall the have lots of disabled toilets as they were supposed to be 3 classes. Never got off the drawing board (thank goodnes)

Yes - so-called 'Virgin Value' Class would have been the third class with 2+3 seating!

 

[Spartacus]

Given the choice, I'd rather spend three hours on a 180 than a Voyager.

Perhaps one day someone will design a train that satisfies both the passengers and the bean-counters... until then, we can but hope!

I think someone did, the HST

I remember these coming out, even the few days before they started developing their horrid smell that's followed them forever after. I used to do a reasonable amount of commuting between Birmingham and Yorkshire at the time and once the HSTs and Mk2s were largely replaced I was glad of still reasonably cheap open tickets, enabling me to switch to something more comfortable and less smelly along the route.

Operation Princess was a bit of a disaster. Quite aside from the reduction in capacity at key times, leading to overcrowding, the tight timing was a disaster, repeated years later with the TPE timetable. Once something got a few minutes late it just seemed to start losing time hand over fist. I know the 47s were allowed to deteriorate towards the end, and their timekeeping suffered, but even they were far better at keeping time time on the old timetable than the Voyagers on Princess. I'd got quite a lot of literature on it at the time, and one name that cropped up regularly, being a driving force behind it was Graeme Bunker, now more widely known as one of the driving forces, often literally, behind Tornado.

I did a bit of a study a while after the Voyagers were introduced, to find out what normal passengers thought of the new trains. I found just what Virgin did, passengers liked the new trains. I also asked something I doubt they asked, or if they did they didn't publish the answer. I asked which trains the passengers preferred, new or old. The majority preferred the old ones.

 

[Failed Unit]

Do the 222s smell? I am interested why they didn’t retrofit the solution on the voyagers.

But I guess 2 reasons people prefer an old train over the new. Seat comfort (very subjective). The mk2 / 3were not exactly in the best condition when they left but could have had the same seat fitted if they had chosen.

Ability to get a seat. Which would I suspect get a negative for many compared to the old trains. (but not the fault of the train)

the 222s are well respected- so i guess the voyager is what could be.

 

[Spartacus]

Do the 222s smell? I am interested why they didn’t retrofit the solution on the voyagers.

But I guess 2 reasons people prefer an old train over the new. Seat comfort (very subjective). The mk2 / 3were not exactly in the best condition when they left but could have had the same seat fitted if they had chosen.

Ability to get a seat. Which would I suspect get a negative for many compared to the old trains. (but not the fault of the train)

the 222s are well respected- so i guess the voyager is what could be.

I've never thought the 222s carried the Voyager's stench, though I've spent less time travelling on them. They've always felt more spacious inside to me, like the walls don't intrude as much. Whether that's a result of different seats or perhaps different luggage racks, or even different mouldings (I think a slight recess around the 222 windows may give passengers a few extra millimetres), but it all adds up to a much better feel inside.

 

[Neptune]

I have always found the 222’s feel like a much better train than the 220/221 (layout etc) with the exception of the seats which give the impression of being hemmed in.

Maybe the best of both worlds would have been the 222 layout with the voyager seats (which I have always found comfortable in either class). Add to that Project Thor and we might have had a winner.

 

[DustyBin]

Probably those very beefy lorry engines they have!

They’re not lorry engines (I’m not being a pedant for the sake of it, they’re just not lorry engines).

Given the choice, I'd rather spend three hours on a 180 than a Voyager.

Perhaps one day someone will design a train that satisfies both the passengers and the bean-counters... until then, we can but hope!

Agreed, assuming it’s working properly a 180 is actually quite a nice train!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You say that... Haven't Avanti gone and done just that on West Coast?

No, the intermediate class isn't a lower one, it is First Class without freebies.

 

[hexagon789]

They’re not lorry engines (I’m not being a pedant for the sake of it, they’re just not lorry engines).

I thought the QSK19 was originally designed for use in trucks/lorries?

Or is that another of these oft-quoted but inherently incorrect pieces of information?

 

[DustyBin]

I thought the QSK19 was originally designed for use in trucks/lorries?

Or is that another of these oft-quoted but inherently incorrect pieces of information?

Not that I’m aware of, but that’s not to say there wasn’t at some point a proposed truck version I suppose. You’re not getting confused with Sprinter engines are you?

 

[irish_rail]

I have always found the 222’s feel like a much better train than the 220/221 (layout etc) with the exception of the seats which give the impression of being hemmed in.

Maybe the best of both worlds would have been the 222 layout with the voyager seats (which I have always found comfortable in either class). Add to that Project Thor and we might have had a winner.

I'll put my neck on the line here and go as far as saying the 222 seating is the worst I've ever experienced on a UK train. As you say give a horrible hemmed in feel, but also extremely uncomfortable. Give me a 220 anyday.
Thank God the plan to send 222s to the Western a few years back never came off ....

 

[Domh245]

I thought the QSK19 was originally designed for use in trucks/lorries?

Or is that another of these oft-quoted but inherently incorrect pieces of information?

At 19 litres and a "minimum tune" of 525 bhp, they're a tad on the big and powerful side for putting on the road!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Voyagers have always had some Alstom content - the TMS, specified by Virgin for compatibility with Pendolinos.
The Avanti tilting 221s also have Alstom TASS (again, for 390 compatibility).

 

[Bayum]

No, the intermediate class isn't a lower one, it is First Class without freebies.

But it’s still a three class system.

 

[trebor79]

Disliked them from the day they were introduced. My recollection from doing regular Durham - Bristol journeys was that spacious and comfortable HSTs and 47+Mk2 sets (my personal favourite) were replaced by cramped, noisy, smelly crush loaded DMUs with insufficient luggage storage. Hour upon hour wedged into the vestibule and arguments over "you're in my seat mate".
I couldn't understand why they were ordered as 4 and 5 car sets with way less than half the capacity of what they replaced. The frequency increase didn't offset the capacity reduction because it encouraged more travel, and in any case people still tended to want to travel when they always did.
Really they should have refurbished the HST and Mk2 sets and ordered a few new trains to increase frequency. Even as a not very wordly student I could see the Voyager project was poorly conceived and specified.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But it’s still a three class system.

It is, yes, but it's a very different one indeed. It's much closer to the Virgin West Coast "blue zone" thing, but without the confusing nature of that which involved the "middle class" including both Standard and First Class coaches.

 

[TRAX]

I thought the QSK19 was originally designed for use in trucks/lorries?

Or is that another of these oft-quoted but inherently incorrect pieces of information?

Nope, the K in the denomination means it’s a pure offroad engine by design. Plus, 19 litres is much too big for a truck (the biggest truck engine is the 16 litre Scania V8).

 

[coppercapped]

I thought the QSK19 was originally designed for use in trucks/lorries?

Or is that another of these oft-quoted but inherently incorrect pieces of information?

Partially correct, I think!

My understanding is that the QSK19 was originally intended for earth moving equipment and similar rather than for lorries on roads. It's a bit big for that use...!

 

[fgwrich]

For Alstom, I’ll allow them the celebration of 20 years service. But from a passengers perspective on XC there’s little to celebrate. Particularly as, to the ordinary passenger, the standard class interior is exactly the same as it was 20 years ago (same moquette, same colours, same Stripey doors. Just uncared for and worn. I’m also not sure what it is about the 22X fleets that, when in idle, transmits so much vibration and wobbling through the carriage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For Alstom, I’ll allow them the celebration of 20 years service. But from a passengers perspective on XC there’s little to celebrate. Particularly as, to the ordinary passenger, the standard class interior is exactly the same as it was 20 years ago (same moquette, same colours, same Stripey doors. Just uncared for and worn. I’m also not sure what it is about the 22X fleets that, when in idle, transmits so much vibration and wobbling through the carriage.

The fact that there is a socking great engine underneath! There is only so much you can do with mountings. OK, 80x are much better but they are also much newer.

I would agree that XC haven't looked after them, the WCML ones are in an altogether better state particularly post refurb. It doesn't help their cause that XC is just such a bad TOC.

 

[Watershed]

I saw the "Voyager 20" unit yesterday. Funny how Alstom were able to tart that unit up but the unit it was coupled to was looking decidedly tired! XC's units are in desperate need of a deep clean and refurb.

 

[Neptune]

I saw the "Voyager 20" unit yesterday. Funny how Alstom were able to tart that unit up but the unit it was coupled to was looking decidedly tired! XC's units are in desperate need of a deep clean and refurb.

The XC units are in a dire state internally. It’s very noticeable how the only bit that’s really been touched (other than removing the shop) is First Class and that was pretty much limited to reupholstering the seats.

A thorough mid life refurbishment is what is required by stripping them out and starting again.

 

[hexagon789]

Not that I’m aware of, but that’s not to say there wasn’t at some point a proposed truck version I suppose. You’re not getting confused with Sprinter engines are you?

I don't think so, it's probably one of those oft-repeated misconceptions that is repeated so frequently it becomes fact.

I even thought Wikipedia (and yes I know Wikipedia is often incorrect but I thought I'd perhaps read that there as well) said they were truck engines but I couldn't find such a reference on the 220 article.

Evidently I've read it somewhere and they've been wrong, Cummins themselves say the QSK19 is designed for rail use so I think that clears that up.

At 19 litres and a "minimum tune" of 525 bhp, they're a tad on the big and powerful side for putting on the road!

Fair enough, but I was thinking Anerican trucks rather than British lorries. I'm sure there are some lorries/trucks with 600-700bhp engines.

Partially correct, I think!

My understanding is that the QSK19 was originally intended for earth moving equipment and similar rather than for lorries on roads. It's a bit big for that use...!

Thank you

Nope, the K in the denomination means it’s a pure offroad engine by design. Plus, 19 litres is much too big for a truck (the biggest truck engine is the 16 litre Scania V8).

Thanks

 

[Spartacus]

The fact that there is a socking great engine underneath! There is only so much you can do with mountings. OK, 80x are much better but they are also much newer.

It's not really something that's anywhere near as bad on the 180s and 185s which share the same engines, with only the 185s being slightly newer than either the 180s or 22xs. Ok, the odd vehicle might seem to run a bit rough (First Class in 180101 was notoriously bad, I wonder if it's ever been sorted?), but it's the exception rather than the rule.

 

[TRAX]

Fair enough, but I was thinking Anerican trucks rather than British lorries. I'm sure there are some lorries/trucks with 600-700bhp engines.

Most powerful truck engine in North America: Cummins X15, 15 litre, 605 hp.

Most powerful truck engine in Europe: Scania DC16, 16 litre, 770 hp.

 

[class26]

I'll put my neck on the line here and go as far as saying the 222 seating is the worst I've ever experienced on a UK train. As you say give a horrible hemmed in feel, but also extremely uncomfortable. Give me a 220 anyday.
Thank God the plan to send 222s to the Western a few years back never came off ....

Worse than a 800?