• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Anglesey-Cardiff Air Service Scrapped - Money to be spent on land-based North-South Links

Status
Not open for further replies.

Envoy

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2014
Messages
2,800
Is it not the case that Network Rail ban the loco hauled services from exceeding 70mph in order to reduce track wear & tear? That being the case, I suppose 197’s would be quicker and cheaper to run. I would have thought that Pacers in their day would have caused more track damage due to their fixed single wheels? (They really screeched on corners due to the friction).
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Sheridan

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2012
Messages
459
Is it not the case that Network Rail ban the loco hauled services from exceeding 70mph in order to reduce track wear & tear? That being the case, I suppose 197’s would be quicker and cheaper to run. I would have thought that Pacers in their day would have caused more track damage due to their fixed single wheels? (They really screeched on corners due to the friction).

No, they run at line speed. They can’t use the higher MU speeds in the couple of short sections where these exist but otherwise do the same speed as any other TfW train.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,012
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Plaid have never run the rail service in Wales, it's been Labour ever since devolution.
Plaid were in coalition with Labour for one session (2007-11), and provided the minister for the economy and transport (Ieuan Wyn Jones, MS for Anglesey).
While in office (as Deputy FM) he authorised both the Premier rail service and the Valley-Cardiff air service, and scrapped plans to improve the A55 in Flintshire.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,766
Plaid were in coalition with Labour for one session (2007-11), and provided the minister for the economy and transport (Ieuan Wyn Jones, MS for Anglesey).
While in office (as Deputy FM) he authorised both the Premier rail service and the Valley-Cardiff air service, and scrapped plans to improve the A55 in Flintshire.
Whilst not currently in a formal coalition, Plaid do seem to have a fair degree of influence over the present Labour Government (who have only half the seats in the Welsh Parliament).
 

Andrew*Debbie

Member
Joined
1 Feb 2017
Messages
323
Location
Llanfairpwllgwyngyll ...
The reality is that there is little demand for travel from Anglesey to Cardiff


Debbie flew Anglesey <--> Cardiff once and said "never again". When we add in the time to drive to Valley, the airport ground time, and the taxi from the airport back to the city centre it just wasn't worth it. It was windy the day she travled (when isn't it?) and the return was very bumpy. The only thing she liked was walking by the Hawks on the way to the terminal.

I've done Anglsey to Cardiff twice. Once by train and once as passenger in a car. Train was better, even on a very tired Arriva 172. Long wanted try the Premire service at least in one direction.
 

Andrew*Debbie

Member
Joined
1 Feb 2017
Messages
323
Location
Llanfairpwllgwyngyll ...
Welsh Government Press Release --> https://gov.wales/suspended-flights-between-ynys-mon-and-cardiff-will-not-resume


despite common perceptions, the air service was not always the fastest link to Cardiff from north Wales, especially east of Bangor, where rail travel is actually faster, door-to-door. The Welsh Government’s investment in new rail carriages, with Wi-Fi, comfortable workspaces and on-board catering, means that the Holyhead-Cardiff rail service now offers a much more attractive proposition for those who still need to travel on business between the north and the south.

The decision follows the outcome of an independent study commissioned by the Welsh Government into the carbon impact of the service on the environment. The study showed the service had a more negative impact on the environment than any other form of travel between Ynys Mon and Cardiff, unless it was flying close to full capacity every day, which, given the significant reduction in business travel since the pandemic, would be very highly unlikely.

Ministers have decided to use the £2.9 million funding earmarked for the air-link to accelerate work on north-south connectivity within the North Wales Metro programme, including faster progress on the Holyhead Masterplan, Bangor Gateway and Wrexham Gateway, alongside work towards new station development at Broughton and Greenfield.
 

Western Lord

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
931
Would this service have been better if operated from Caernarfon Airport? Seems to get little use except for private planes and sir ambulance and coastguard. It is less remote than Anglesey.
Caernarfon "Airport" is at the end of a long unclassified road off the A499 and is only really suitable for light aircraft and helicopters. Of course, if you built a link road to the new Caernarfon by-pass, lengthened the runways and built a passenger terminal you could have Snowdonia International Airport.......
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,992
Location
K
If its £2.9 million a year then you may end up with a larger scheme based on its payback time. Id count out signalling changes though.
Are there any figures for Welsh rail revenue? I wouldn't be surprised to find out that's dropped more than £3 million pa since covid.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,515
Is it not the case that Network Rail ban the loco hauled services from exceeding 70mph in order to reduce track wear & tear? That being the case, I suppose 197’s would be quicker and cheaper to run. I would have thought that Pacers in their day would have caused more track damage due to their fixed single wheels? (They really screeched on corners due to the friction).

Is the OP thinking of short LHCS (4 or fewer vehicles I think) being limited due to reduced brake force?
When the service originally started, as it was 3 MKIIs and a MKIII buffet the brake force rule did indeed apply. When it was converted to a full MKIII rake with DVT that no longer applied (as the rules don't apply to MKIIIs), so it could run at line speed.

There are sections of the route where there are MU speeds higher than the normal line speed. Normally the MKIIIs would not have been eligible to run at these enhanced speeds - but ATW got a dispensation for them to be used for part of the route (namely Shrewsbury to Newport). With the conversion to MKIVs TfW have applied both for that dispensation to be continued and also for it to be expanded to cover all the MU sections and also the HST section (Newport to Cardiff) but so far Network Rail have declined on both counts.

The impact of this isn't terribly huge. In general, it means 60 Vs 70 between Wrexham and Gobowen, 75 Vs 80-90 between Shrewsbury and Ludlow and 75 Vs 95 between Newport and Cardiff, plus a few other random bits and pieces on other parts of the route. When you throw in the better acceleration and hill climbing of the 67s above about 30 mph, it doesn't make all that much difference to timings.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,012
Location
Mold, Clwyd
I noticed a 75/MU90 sign at Flint (westbound) recently, replacing the old 75 through the station (90 either side).
So DMUs can maintain 90 throughout, while Mk4s have to reduce to 75.
Not that there are many non-stop trains through Flint these days, but there are some.
 

childwallblues

Established Member
Joined
3 Jul 2014
Messages
3,462
Location
Liverpool, UK
The Gerald (named after Gread Jones the manaer at Chester was a profitable service when it commenced with Class 57 + Mk 3 carriages and ran via Crewe which was conenient for passengers from North West England. The decision to divert the train via Wrexham was probably political and would have cost quite a lot of revenue.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,012
Location
Mold, Clwyd
The Gerald (named after Gread Jones the manaer at Chester was a profitable service when it commenced with Class 57 + Mk 3 carriages and ran via Crewe which was conenient for passengers from North West England. The decision to divert the train via Wrexham was probably political and would have cost quite a lot of revenue.
Named after Gerald of Wales (Gerallt o Gymro), who documented Welsh life during his travels in the 1190s, on commission to Henry II and the Archbishop of Canterbury.
He's a curious mix of English and Welsh, being variously based in Pembrokeshire, Gloucester, Lincoln and Brecon.
I don't think there is a particular link to Chester.

The Gerald train began as an open access service over and above the ATW franchise spec, and funded directly by the WG.
In the 2018 franchise it became part of the wider TfW spec (with new/additional LHCS stock) so is now not directly subsidised.
It also now stops at Ludlow and Hereford so provides more "English" connections.
The initial route via Crewe was because there were no suitable paths via Wrexham.
While I too miss the link via Crewe, the hourly Manchester-Cardiff service does the north-west job, and Wrexham needed better than its previous 2-hourly service to Birmingham.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,515
The Gerald (named after Gread Jones the manaer at Chester was a profitable service when it commenced with Class 57 + Mk 3 carriages and ran via Crewe which was conenient for passengers from North West England. The decision to divert the train via Wrexham was probably political and would have cost quite a lot of revenue.
And your source for this is?
The Gerald train began as an open access service over and above the ATW franchise spec, and funded directly by the WG.
In the 2018 franchise it became part of the wider TfW spec (with new/additional LHCS stock) so is now not directly subsidised.
It also now stops at Hereford so provides more "English" connections.
The initial route via Crewe was because there were no suitable paths via Wrexham.
While I too miss the link via Crewe, the hourly Manchester-Cardiff service does the north-west job, and Wrexham needed better than its previous 2-hourly service to Birmingham.
There was also the logistical issue of needing to do a run round at Chester to go via Wrexham in the MKII era. With the MKIIIs came a DVT, thus making it much easier to run via Wrexham.

Crewe will soon be regaining a regular loco hauled service to Cardiff, this time on a much higher frequency through the day compared to the old once daily service
 

Spartacus

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2009
Messages
3,330
I've done Anglesey to Cardiff twice. Once by train and once as passenger in a car. Train was better, even on a very tired Arriva 172. Long wanted try the Premier service at least in one direction.

The road links SE-NW are pretty terrible, it takes me as long to get from West Yorks to Carmarthenshire as it would from Cardiff to Holyhead, even with relatively recent improvements such as the Porthmadog bypass. It's so slow even going 'the long way round' by rail takes about the same time as by road.

Reinstate Carmarthen-Aberystwyth!

(...as a cycle track)

I don't think you'd even get half a cycle track done for that these days, though it's probably a more sensible proposition than reinstating the railway, which of course in this case wouldn't be of great use anyway.
 

Runningaround

Member
Joined
24 Mar 2022
Messages
799
The Gerald train up to Anglesey (in 1st class) and the Jetstream 41 flight back are featured on this YouTube channel. Both journeys heavily subsidised by the Welsh assembly...

Didn't ITV Wales do a similar trip, Car V Train V Plane Cardiff to Bangor?
 

Runningaround

Member
Joined
24 Mar 2022
Messages
799
Plaid were in coalition with Labour for one session (2007-11), and provided the minister for the economy and transport (Ieuan Wyn Jones, MS for Anglesey).
While in office (as Deputy FM) he authorised both the Premier rail service and the Valley-Cardiff air service, and scrapped plans to improve the A55 in Flintshire.
Which would have coincided with a Labour Westminster Government but 1 year. And it's run for ten years since.
 

Envoy

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2014
Messages
2,800
When the service originally started, as it was 3 MKIIs and a MKIII buffet the brake force rule did indeed apply. When it was converted to a full MKIII rake with DVT that no longer applied (as the rules don't apply to MKIIIs), so it could run at line speed.

There are sections of the route where there are MU speeds higher than the normal line speed. Normally the MKIIIs would not have been eligible to run at these enhanced speeds - but ATW got a dispensation for them to be used for part of the route (namely Shrewsbury to Newport). With the conversion to MKIVs TfW have applied both for that dispensation to be continued and also for it to be expanded to cover all the MU sections and also the HST section (Newport to Cardiff) but so far Network Rail have declined on both counts.

The impact of this isn't terribly huge. In general, it means 60 Vs 70 between Wrexham and Gobowen, 75 Vs 80-90 between Shrewsbury and Ludlow and 75 Vs 95 between Newport and Cardiff, plus a few other random bits and pieces on other parts of the route. When you throw in the better acceleration and hill climbing of the 67s above about 30 mph, it doesn't make all that much difference to timings.
Many thanks for this. Can always rely on you to clarify matters.

The road links SE-NW are pretty terrible, it takes me as long to get from West Yorks to Carmarthenshire as it would from Cardiff to Holyhead, even with relatively recent improvements such as the Porthmadog bypass. It's so slow even going 'the long way round' by rail takes about the same time as by road.



I don't think you'd even get half a cycle track done for that these days, though it's probably a more sensible proposition than reinstating the railway, which of course in this case wouldn't be of great use anyway.
The ironic thing with the south-north road is that the very section where you could go fast (70mph), The Welsh Government have decided to now reduce the A470 from M4 J32 to just north of Pontypridd to 50mph in order to reduce ‘air pollution’. It is a darn good job that Porthmadog got its by-pass as with Lee Waters & Julie James calling the shots, no new roads are being built in Wales due to ‘The Climate Emergency’. (Wales is going to save the planet - never mind that cars are gradually going electric). Hence, the village of Llanbedr by-pass was scrapped and the locals have to put up with ‘A’ road traffic passing their cottages.

It is regrettable that places like Builth Wells & Rhayader are not by-passed. It will never be a fast journey between north and south Wales due to the terrain.

A good part of the old Carmarthen to Aberystwyth rail bed is now a cycle track. However, it is a pity that this is not still a rail line linking up the western side Wales. It is not just about linking Carmarthen with Aberystwyth but would also be used by travellers say from Newtown to Pembrokeshire or Barmouth to Swansea. The section of the old rail bed in Aberystwyth has been built upon.
 
Last edited:

Doctor Fegg

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2010
Messages
2,126
Location
Charlbury
I don't think you'd even get half a cycle track done for that these days, though it's probably a more sensible proposition than reinstating the railway, which of course in this case wouldn't be of great use anyway.
Oh, indeed. Though you can do rail trails on the cheap with volunteer labour and a limited construction spec: I understand the Wye Valley Greenway (7km from Chepstow-ish to Tintern) was done for tuppence hapenny, though I can't find the exact price, and lots of US rail trails are basically the old trackbed with a basic graded surface. Securing the land is the hard bit, and making the structures safe the expensive bit.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
17,567
The Gerald train began as an open access service over and above the ATW franchise spec, and funded directly by the WG.
In the 2018 franchise it became part of the wider TfW spec (with new/additional LHCS stock) so is now not directly subsidised.
It also now stops at Ludlow and Hereford so provides more "English" connections.
The initial route via Crewe was because there were no suitable paths via Wrexham.
And one of the reasons why there was a big push on Wrexham Chester redoubling.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,766
no new roads are being built in Wales due to ‘The Climate Emergency’. (Wales is going to save the planet - never mind that cars are gradually going electric).
Well, there's the £1bn road being built between Dowlais and Hirwaun, making the A465 a dual carriageway all the way from Abergavenny to Neath.
 

lachlan

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2019
Messages
1,006
Well, there's the £1bn road being built between Dowlais and Hirwaun, making the A465 a dual carriageway all the way from Abergavenny to Neath.
So much for caring about the environment. Now £1 billion invested in the rail network would go a long way.
 

Envoy

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2014
Messages
2,800
Well, there's the £1bn road being built between Dowlais and Hirwaun, making the A465 a dual carriageway all the way from Abergavenny to Neath.
That was already committed when the Welsh Government decided they were going to save the planet by not building new roads. The A465 Heads of the Valleys road when not dualled had an appalling accident rate. Building new roads saves lives and usually removes traffic from near human habitation. Would anyone seriously want the ‘new' A48 from the end of the M4 to Carmarthen not to have been built? Just try the old road to see how things were. Anyway, we digress from the main topic. The Welsh Government are to be applauded for their efforts to improve the railways in Wales.
 

sor

Member
Joined
15 Nov 2013
Messages
578
The travel time point is interesting & it mirrors my experience of the Cornwall/London subsidised route. I’m close enough to Newquay at that end but far enough from whichever London airport it is this week, such that it makes little sense for me to get a train and then fly vs just getting the train all the way (especially when Heathrow was the chosen airport, why would I get on the heathrow express and fly vs just getting on GWR). And the train doesn’t have security screening or a luggage limit. It’s only an hour in the air but all the rest really adds up. The combined air + train fare also costs more.
 

Meole

Member
Joined
28 Oct 2018
Messages
582
The aviation fuel price rise would require a substantial increase in the subsidy as well, coupled with the loss of "expenses" passengers must reduce viability.
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
1,832
Location
Liverpool
Caernarfon "Airport" is at the end of a long unclassified road off the A499 and is only really suitable for light aircraft and helicopters. Of course, if you built a link road to the new Caernarfon by-pass, lengthened the runways and built a passenger terminal you could have Snowdonia International Airport.......
I do know I have been there but we are talking small aircraft are we not?
 

Runningaround

Member
Joined
24 Mar 2022
Messages
799
Many thanks for this. Can always rely on you to clarify matters.


The ironic thing with the south-north road is that the very section where you could go fast (70mph), The Welsh Government have decided to now reduce the A470 from M4 J32 to just north of Pontypridd to 50mph in order to reduce ‘air pollution’. It is a darn good job that Porthmadog got its by-pass as with Lee Waters & Julie James calling the shots, no new roads are being built in Wales due to ‘The Climate Emergency’. (Wales is going to save the planet - never mind that cars are gradually going electric). Hence, the village of Llanbedr by-pass was scrapped and the locals have to put up with ‘A’ road traffic passing their cottages.

It is regrettable that places like Builth Wells & Rhayader are not by-passed. It will never be a fast journey between north and south Wales due to the terrain.

A good part of the old Carmarthen to Aberystwyth rail bed is now a cycle track. However, it is a pity that this is not still a rail line linking up the western side Wales. It is not just about linking Carmarthen with Aberystwyth but would also be used by travellers say from Newtown to Pembrokeshire or Barmouth to Swansea. The section of the old rail bed in Aberystwyth has been built upon.
The problem with those looking at problems of Carmarthen - Aber is they can't see beyond the old route, that was built for freight, and farming a new one will be passenger focused so can routed differently and with modern machinery and trains they will not be as restricted by geography, it can head closer to the coast towards Aberaeron and New Quay and head inland to Lampeter on to Carmarthen, this it caters for the tourist market from the Midlands and South Wales. And all Mid and West Wales would benefit from better links to Swansea. The buses have always been extremely slow and uncomfortable, but are getting busier.
An electric bus might be greener but it's still slow and uncomftorbale.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top