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Anglesey-Cardiff Air Service Scrapped - Money to be spent on land-based North-South Links

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Spartacus

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The problem with those looking at problems of Carmarthen - Aber is they can't see beyond the old route, that was built for freight, and farming a new one will be passenger focused so can routed differently and with modern machinery and trains they will not be as restricted by geography, it can head closer to the coast towards Aberaeron and New Quay and head inland to Lampeter on to Carmarthen, this it caters for the tourist market from the Midlands and South Wales. And all Mid and West Wales would benefit from better links to Swansea. The buses have always been extremely slow and uncomfortable, but are getting busier.
An electric bus might be greener but it's still slow and uncomftorbale.

I think that's much more 'building a new railway' than reinstating an old one (even in the days of building bonkers railways to anywhere imaginable they abandoned plans to get to New Quay) and a long way from fulfilling a NW-SW link anyway.
 
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Runningaround

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I think that's much more 'building a new railway' than reinstating an old one (even in the days of building bonkers railways to anywhere imaginable they abandoned plans to get to New Quay) and a long way from fulfilling a NW-SW link anyway.
How it's what the T1 & T5 almost does now and the line wasn't built for passengers it was built to serve the dairy industry more than anything.
New Quay is as popular as many Cambrian Coast towns without a railway line and a poor bus service, if that line can be justified then so can a South West to Cardigan, Lampeter and onto Carmarthen and Swansea.

I do know I have been there but we are talking small aircraft are we not?
That's the point isn't it, it's so unpopular having a plane bigger than a Cessna isn't worthy and if it was then building a road and runway to serve anything bigger at Caernarfon would be even more of a waste.
 
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Spartacus

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New Quay's a lovely place but the impracticalities of putting a railway in there for anything like a reasonable cost are immense. We'd be looking at a route similar to, and possibly more heavily engineered than Boulby to Scarborough (and in an area very similar population and tourism wise), with engineering challenges that would need constant demand to justify, and basing things largely on tourist traffic just isn't going to cut it. We're looking at engineering challenges that put people off doing those lines when labour and lives were cheap. It doesn't matter whether the original line was build for milk or not.
 

Runningaround

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New Quay's a lovely place but the impracticalities of putting a railway in there for anything like a reasonable cost are immense. We'd be looking at a route similar to, and possibly more heavily engineered than Boulby to Scarborough (and in an area very similar population and tourism wise), with engineering challenges that would need constant demand to justify, and basing things largely on tourist traffic just isn't going to cut it. We're looking at engineering challenges that put people off doing those lines when labour and lives were cheap. It doesn't matter whether the original line was build for milk or not.
Should TFW cut the Cambrian Coast, HOW and The Conwy Valley line, both have huge costs and both could be replaced by bus routes. In some cases the equivalent bus services are faster than the train. Why shouldn't New Quay be added into a Aber - Carmarthen line that will connect both the West Midlands to Ceredigion and also the services in South West that serve Mid and West Wales, the alternative is to build new roads and straighten what's there now, and unless they find a bus comfortable and fast enough to bother using you aren't taking a single driver out of their car.
 

John Luxton

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That's the point isn't it, it's so unpopular having a plane bigger than a Cessna isn't worthy and if it was then building a road and runway to serve anything bigger at Caernarfon would be even more of a waste.
I was thinking something along the lines of a DHC Twin Otter seat about 20 passengers. Used by Isles of Scilly Steamship Company on their routes from Exeter / Land's End and Newquay.
 

Runningaround

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I was thinking something along the lines of a DHC Twin Otter seat about 20 passengers. Used by Isles of Scilly Steamship Company on their routes from Exeter / Land's End and Newquay.
They couldn't fill what they had and it's been tried so often it's not worth bothering, Caernarfon is not any better than Valley. At least Valley and Cardiff had aviation connections in terms of the RAF and it still didn't get used.
 

mmh

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I was thinking something along the lines of a DHC Twin Otter seat about 20 passengers. Used by Isles of Scilly Steamship Company on their routes from Exeter / Land's End and Newquay.
I heard that the average loading was about 15 or so. You'd have hoped they'd have done some sort of anonymous survey on who was actually using it. Business? Politicians? Novelty value air geeks?

It's easy to assume that, as per "WAG Express", it would be politicians but there really aren't that many of them here.

I did ask Rhun ap Iorwerth once If he'd ever used it. He didn't answer. To be fair, I have seen him on a Cardiff bound train.
 

craigybagel

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I heard that the average loading was about 15 or so. You'd have hoped they'd have done some sort of anonymous survey on who was actually using it. Business? Politicians? Novelty value air geeks?

It's easy to assume that, as per "WAG Express", it would be politicians but there really aren't that many of them here.

I did ask Rhun ap Iorwerth once If he'd ever used it. He didn't answer. To be fair, I have seen him on a Cardiff bound train.
I don't know if it was the norm or not - but the one time I did try the flight all passengers were given a survey form asking where our journey was to and from and what the purpose of travel was.
 

mmh

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I don't know if it was the norm or not - but the one time I did try the flight all passengers were given a survey form asking where our journey was to and from and what the purpose of travel was.
I'm quite jealous, I wanted to go on it but it always ended up "ah, next month."

I still think a north-south flight could somehow work. Well, maybe. Valley was the obvious place but umm...

Good to hear they were collecting stats, who knows maybe one day it'll return.
 

Runningaround

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I don't know if it was the norm or not - but the one time I did try the flight all passengers were given a survey form asking where our journey was to and from and what the purpose of travel was.
If flight crew asked me ''where are you travelling to'' Id worry.
 

Spartacus

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Should TFW cut the Cambrian Coast, HOW and The Conwy Valley line, both have huge costs and both could be replaced by bus routes. In some cases the equivalent bus services are faster than the train. Why shouldn't New Quay be added into a Aber - Carmarthen line that will connect both the West Midlands to Ceredigion and also the services in South West that serve Mid and West Wales, the alternative is to build new roads and straighten what's there now, and unless they find a bus comfortable and fast enough to bother using you aren't taking a single driver out of their car.

All those ACTUALLY HAVE RAILWAY LINES CURRENTLY. I don't think there'd be much of a case for any to have a new line put in, especially where there never was one before. Might as well lay on helicopter transport, it'd probably cheaper than building a new line, and more appropriate given the thread's subject.
 

Bletchleyite

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Should TFW cut the Cambrian Coast, HOW and The Conwy Valley line, both have huge costs and both could be replaced by bus routes. In some cases the equivalent bus services are faster than the train. Why shouldn't New Quay be added into a Aber - Carmarthen line that will connect both the West Midlands to Ceredigion and also the services in South West that serve Mid and West Wales, the alternative is to build new roads and straighten what's there now, and unless they find a bus comfortable and fast enough to bother using you aren't taking a single driver out of their car.

I could certainly see the justification to replace the Conwy Valley with an integrated North West Wales high quality electric bus network, if the UK is capable of that. The HoW I know a lot less, only done it once and I know little about the demographics and demands.

The Cambrian Coast is rather different, though, and buses wouldn't adequately replace it. It runs over a far longer distance with a lot of end to end traffic, and isn't really a classic branch line, more of a quieter single track mainline sort of like the Highland Mainline though with fewer demand centres.
 

Runningaround

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Machynlleth - Porthmadog and to Aberystwyth is significantly quicker and appear to be running hourly now as opposed to 2 that the train runs. And at £5.75 a lot cheaper. Tywyn - Barmouth is about the only well used route that the train is better by train than bus.
 

adamedwards

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What could be done to improve the existing route? (Probably a different thread)

1) A west to south curve west of Chester and a Chester Parkway station on the A55 bypass. There would need to be a shuttle connection to/from Chester, possibly by extending the Crewe to Chester trains?
2) Resignalling at Shrewsbury to speed arrival and depatures (ditto any other stations where old signalling and track is an issue)?
3) Electrification?

What else might gain some minutes usefully?
I'm well aware it's all crayonista stuff as none of this would be cheap and unlikely to happen.
 

Spartacus

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What could be done to improve the existing route? (Probably a different thread)

1) A west to south curve west of Chester and a Chester Parkway station on the A55 bypass. There would need to be a shuttle connection to/from Chester, possibly by extending the Crewe to Chester trains?

I'm well aware it's all crayonista stuff as none of this would be cheap and unlikely to happen.

The Senedd might prefer to put something in at Shotton to go from HL towards Flint and keep out of England as much as possible ;) Joking aside it might not be such a bad idea, and there's already the old formation there so wouldn't cost anywhere near as much as a brand new link.
 

Shrop

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What could be done to improve the existing route?
Reinstating the twin tracks between Chester and Wrexham which should never have been singled. It wouldn't actually make the route any faster when it's clear, but the amount of delays that the single track inflicts due to having to wait for late oncoming trains is disgraceful.
 

craigybagel

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What could be done to improve the existing route? (Probably a different thread)

1) A west to south curve west of Chester and a Chester Parkway station on the A55 bypass. There would need to be a shuttle connection to/from Chester, possibly by extending the Crewe to Chester trains?
2) Resignalling at Shrewsbury to speed arrival and depatures (ditto any other stations where old signalling and track is an issue)?
3) Electrification?

What else might gain some minutes usefully?
I'm well aware it's all crayonista stuff as none of this would be cheap and unlikely to happen.
1) This would be a very expensive way to annoy most of the passengers on the service. There's an awful lot of passenger change over at Chester.
2) I believe that has long since been put in the "too difficult" pile.
3) Yes it would speed things up a bit but it would also be hugely expensive.

Changes to the stopping pattern, making the most of the improved performance of the new stock, maybe the odd speed limit raise where possible or filling in of gaps with long signal sections are much more affordable things to aim for.

Reinstating the twin tracks between Chester and Wrexham which should never have been singled. It wouldn't actually make the route any faster when it's clear, but the amount of delays that the single track inflicts due to having to wait for late oncoming trains is disgraceful.
To be fair it's an awful lot better since the partial restoration of the double track as far as Rossett. I've found its very rare I get held there now. Unfortunately we can thank cash strapped BR for only paying for a single track bridge over the dual carriageway..
 

The Planner

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Reinstating the twin tracks between Chester and Wrexham which should never have been singled. It wouldn't actually make the route any faster when it's clear, but the amount of delays that the single track inflicts due to having to wait for late oncoming trains is disgraceful.
Or fix the issues that cause late running so trains present on time?
 

Meole

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I could certainly see the justification to replace the Conwy Valley with an integrated North West Wales high quality electric bus network, if the UK is capable of that. The HoW I know a lot less, only done it once and I know little about the demographics and demands.

The Cambrian Coast is rather different, though, and buses wouldn't adequately replace it. It runs over a far longer distance with a lot of end to end traffic, and isn't really a classic branch line, more of a quieter single track mainline sort of like the Highland Mainline though with fewer demand centres.
Cambrian coast is used as easy access for school pupils where the bus journey would mean a far earlier start and a much later arrival at home, the pupil numbers do not warrant building new schools all along the coast.
 

6Gman

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Should TFW cut the Cambrian Coast, HOW and The Conwy Valley line, both have huge costs and both could be replaced by bus routes.
"Both"? You've listed 3! The Cambrian Coast carries school traffic and bridges rivers that the roads don't.
The Heart of Wales would be a hell of a line to replicate as a bus service (do you go main centre to main centre, or include detours to the likes of Knucklas, Llanbister Road etc.).
The Blaenau branch would actually suit a bus replacement pretty well.
In some cases the equivalent bus services are faster than the train.
As above, doubt it other than Blaenau.
Why shouldn't New Quay be added into a Aber - Carmarthen line that will connect both the West Midlands to Ceredigion and also the services in South West that serve Mid and West Wales,
How do you get from Carmarthen to Aber via New Quay? Presumably by ignoring Lampeter and Tregaron? So a railway for outside tourists rather than locals? Not sure what your second part means "services in South West that serve Mid and West Wales"?
the alternative is to build new roads and straighten what's there now, and unless they find a bus comfortable and fast enough to bother using you aren't taking a single driver out of their car.
But it's not just about modal shift, it's about economic and social sustainability. I suspect you could upgrade the A487, the A485 and the A482 for a fraction of the cost of a new railway and to the benefit of 5x as many local residents and businesses.
 

mmh

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I could certainly see the justification to replace the Conwy Valley with an integrated North West Wales high quality electric bus network, if the UK is capable of that.

The Blaenau branch would actually suit a bus replacement pretty well.
Politics as well as practicality is an issue, perhaps the overriding one. Don't expect any politician of any colour to support closing the Conwy Valley. We're effectively a Conservative / Labour marginal constituency, which has been Plaid Cymru in the recent past when there's been a local infrastructure issue. You should fully expect it to become a 3 way marginal again if this was proposed. None of the parties would dare support this.

And that's just the Aberconwy constituency end. The Dwyfor Meirionnydd end? Good luck.
 

Runningaround

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"Both"? You've listed 3! The Cambrian Coast carries school traffic and bridges rivers that the roads don't.
The Heart of Wales would be a hell of a line to replicate as a bus service (do you go main centre to main centre, or include detours to the likes of Knucklas, Llanbister Road etc.).
The Blaenau branch would actually suit a bus replacement pretty well.

As above, doubt it other than Blaenau.

How do you get from Carmarthen to Aber via New Quay? Presumably by ignoring Lampeter and Tregaron? So a railway for outside tourists rather than locals? Not sure what your second part means "services in South West that serve Mid and West Wales"?

But it's not just about modal shift, it's about economic and social sustainability. I suspect you could upgrade the A487, the A485 and the A482 for a fraction of the cost of a new railway and to the benefit of 5x as many local residents and businesses.

"Both"? You've listed 3! The Cambrian Coast carries school traffic and bridges rivers that the roads don't.
The Heart of Wales would be a hell of a line to replicate as a bus service (do you go main centre to main centre, or include detours to the likes of Knucklas, Llanbister Road etc.).
The Blaenau branch would actually suit a bus replacement pretty well.

As above, doubt it other than Blaenau.

How do you get from Carmarthen to Aber via New Quay? Presumably by ignoring Lampeter and Tregaron? So a railway for outside tourists rather than locals? Not sure what your second part means "services in South West that serve Mid and West Wales"?

But it's not just about modal shift, it's about economic and social sustainability. I suspect you could upgrade the A487, the A485 and the A482 for a fraction of the cost of a new railway and to the benefit of 5x as many local residents and businesses.
Your doubts are wrong I know it is look at a timetable and travel on it. Even with changes the main towns along the route are quicker by bus Pwllheli - Porthmadog - Machynlleth - Aberystwyth is faster by bus and cheaper. Even Barmouth with an hourly T3 connecting the T2 can be more convenient than hanging around for two hours. Other than the all stops coast RRB, many were quicker during the closure than the train is now, With buses travelling from the coast meet to the T2. Tywyn - Barmouth - Harlech is about the only destinations quicker by train
With a railway between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth it needs to serve tourism and locals it can either do both or one of the other to connect on to the South Wales via Cardigan or Lampeter, I'm sure todays machinery could build it to travel at a sufficient speed you wouldn't have any new line being as slow as the HOW or CC as it'd be pointless.

I'm not advocating shutting them but am pointing out if these three slow lines can be heavily spent on then so can a quicker Aberystwyth - South Wales route can be to, it'd serve a similar purpose to the CC and do more than the HOW and Conwy Valley lines do for theirs.
 

6Gman

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Politics as well as practicality is an issue, perhaps the overriding one. Don't expect any politician of any colour to support closing the Conwy Valley. We're effectively a Conservative / Labour marginal constituency, which has been Plaid Cymru in the recent past when there's been a local infrastructure issue. You should fully expect it to become a 3 way marginal again if this was proposed. None of the parties would dare support this.

And that's just the Aberconwy constituency end. The Dwyfor Meirionnydd end? Good luck.
Oh I fully recognise the political reality, I was just making the point that on this particular route a replacement bus would match (or improve upon) the performance of the train which the other two wouldn't.
 

Shrop

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Or fix the issues that cause late running so trains present on time?
Nice idea but it's been tried for many decades and simply doesn't work. Trains run late for many reasons, all of which can be successfully fixed in Japan and other countries, but the UK culture simply doesn't allow them to be fixed.
Unfortunately we can thank cash strapped BR for only paying for a single track bridge over the dual carriageway..
Another example of the culture problem that the UK suffers. Government only takes an interest in transport if they perceive votes in it, and even then they often get it wrong. They're certainly not capable of listening to those who were telling them when the dual carriageway was being built, that rail traffic was on the rise, and that removing one of the tracks was a crazy idea. No, they chose instead to strip BR of cash as part of their ongoing post-Thatcher "Roads are everything" anti-rail programme.
 

The Planner

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Nice idea but it's been tried for many decades and simply doesn't work. Trains run late for many reasons, all of which can be successfully fixed in Japan and other countries, but the UK culture simply doesn't allow them to be fixed.
Works in a myriad of cases, to say it doesnt is ridiculous. How do you fix unintended circumstances such as assistance at a station call, failure of infrastructure, weather etc.. or should there be resilience for everything?
 

Shrop

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Works in a myriad of cases, to say it doesnt is ridiculous. How do you fix unintended circumstances such as assistance at a station call, failure of infrastructure, weather etc.. or should there be resilience for everything?
Of course many things can be fixed, and indeed are, but can you imagine having to refund passengers in the UK if a train is just 5 minutes late? In Japan they have the confidence that they can do that, which they do by ironing out the reasons for delays. As I said, it's a cultural thing. Japanese culture is that loyalty to their employers is paramount, such that many of them don't even take all of their leave entitlement, whereas in the UK it's extremely common to fabricate a "sickie" to add to their annual leave. In China recently, many people literally lived at their places of employment throughout their latest 65 day Covid lockdown in order to keep their industries going. In the UK there would be an outcry of "slavery" before that happened here.

We're far too good at finding reason not to do things in the UK. I think a country such as Japan which is prone to earthquakes, and has far more people crammed into their similar area of land as the UK, has more right to cite failure of infrastructure too. Once again, they iron it out much better than we do.

Anyway, this is going off topic. Suffice to say that there OUGHT to be scope to improve the North to South Wales rail service by reinstating the dual track north of Wrexham.
 
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