Appalling: Rules of travel for under 18s - TfL

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I've never seen such outrageous stereotyping in my life as on this page:

Rules of travel for under 18s

Young Person's Behaviour Code for travel on all TfL services

tfl.gov.uk

Let me quote it for you.

Rules of travel for under 18s​

Our Young Person's Behaviour Code exists to ensure you travel safely and show respect for others.
You must follow it or you risk losing your concession or your Zip Oyster photocard.
The Young Person's Behaviour Code helps you travel safely and be respectful of travellers, staff and property. Expected behaviours include, but are not limited to:

Act in a considerate and responsible manner​

• Act safely
• Cooperate with our staff and treat them and other passengers with respect
• Use language that does not cause offence to others
• Ensure you are the only person that can hear your music
• Ensure you pick up all your litter
• Keep your feet off the seats
• Give up your seat for others

Look after your Oyster photocard​

• Ensure it's not used by another person
• Ensure your photo is clearly recognisable and the card is in good condition
• If your Oyster photocard is lost, stolen or damaged, report it to us immediately, even if you do not plan to get a replacement straight away

Use your Oyster photocard correctly​

• Always touch in on the yellow reader on buses and trams
• Always touch in at the start of your journey and touch out at the end on the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services. Find out more about touching in and out
• Pay the right fare if you do not have your valid photocard with you, or it is damaged
• Pay any penalty fare that has been issued to you

You must not:​

• Smoke, take drugs or drink alcohol on our vehicles and/or premises
• Behave in a way that we consider to be antisocial
• Commit any crime that affects our services, passengers, staff or property
• Breach the Conditions of Carriage Public Service Vehicles Regulations (1990) or any TfL Byelaw

I don't think I can express how genuinely I angry I am having read this. Why on earth should these rules - don't swear or put your feet on seats, don't smoke or dodge fares - be dedicated in a list of rules specifically to Under 18s? That is genuinely the most stereotypical and anti-customer thing I've ever seen. Absolutely everything in this list should also apply to everyone else on the train, whether it's the 78 year old biddy popping to Gants Hill to see her sister, or the 35 year old business man travelling to Holborn.

Actually, the outlier there is "Give up your seat for others." What?? You're young, so you're expected to give up your seat for over 18s. Tosh. For an old lady or pregnant woman, sure, but not for just anyone purely because they're an adult and the child isn't.

I know a lot of you will think I'm overreacting, and a lot of you will comment on the tendency of teenage gangs to act in anti-social behaviour, but this has genuinely outraged me, and I will be writing to TfL to ask them why they think it is appropriate to list these rules as a specially designated list for Under 18s.

Shocked and appalled, frankly. These aren't the 1800s.

 

[zwk500]

I find it funny that 'do not commit any crimes' is number 3 in their list of things you must not do.

Absolutely everything in this list should also apply to everyone else on the train, whether it's the 78 year old biddy popping to Gants Hill to see her sister, or the 35 year old business man travelling to Holborn.

I quite agree. You aren't going to fix the anti-social behaviour problem by publishing a list, because the people you're intending to target won't take any notice, and people who do read lists like this tend to already behave themselves anyway.
It needs staffing and robust enforcement to tackle anti-social behaviour.

 

[Mojo]

FWIW, TfL does not normally authorise prosecution for anyone under 18 on the day of the offence, in line with its prosecutions policy. Hence this separate set of rules for under 18s in order to allow for some kind of enforcement action (withdrawal of concessionary or free travel passes).

 

[nw1]

This sounds more like a general Passenger's Code.

I do agree that under-18s should not have to give up their seat to a fit and healthy over-18. (And I am long over-18 now, sadly. My journeys to and from school were on CIGs, BEPs (refurbished ones, admittedly) and VEPs with the occasional HAP, to show how long ago it was )

 

[Thirteen]

I must be the only one who doesn't see the problem. It's just guidelines and keep in mind the vast majority of under 18s will follow it, it's more aimed at the annoying snots who cause trouble. Free travel is a perk not a right.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I must be the only one who doesn't see the problem. It's just guidelines and keep in mind the vast majority of under 18s will follow it, it's more aimed at the annoying snots who cause trouble. Free travel is a perk not a right.

Why should those rules apply to under 18s and not everyone else?

 

[Thirteen]

Why should those rules apply to under 18s and not everyone else?

I'm sure these people apply to over 18s as well but TfL can hit the ones over 18s with harsher punishments.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'm sure these people apply to over 18s as well but TfL can hit the ones over 18s with harsher punishments.

Sure they can, but they can have a general code of conduct and list that under 18s may lose their oyster privileges and adults may face prosecution at the bottom. The separate list for <18s and the patronising way it's written is really condescending.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Actually, the outlier there is "Give up your seat for others." What?? You're young, so you're expected to give up your seat for over 18s. Tosh. For an old lady or pregnant woman, sure, but not for just anyone purely because they're an adult and the child isn't.

It used to be common for bus companies' conditions of carriage to include a line like "children travelling on concessionary fares must not occupy a seat while full-fare paying passengers are standing", which from a certain point of view makes some sense.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It used to be common for bus companies' conditions of carriage to include a line like "children travelling on concessionary fares must not occupy a seat while full-fare paying passengers are standing", which from a certain point of view makes some sense.

It is rules for under 18s, not under 18s on a concessionary fare.

 

[zwk500]

I must be the only one who doesn't see the problem. It's just guidelines and keep in mind the vast majority of under 18s will follow it, it's more aimed at the annoying snots who cause trouble. Free travel is a perk not a right.

The point is that it's needlessly aggravating for precisely zero effectiveness. Do you really think that people who damaged property, smoked or assaulted people on board are going to say 'hold on now, there's a list of things on a website saying we shouldn't be doing this?'. No, they're going to be completely unaffected by this. The list doesn't provide any more grounds to eject people or withdraw travel passes than TfL already had, so it's utterly pointless, except it pisses off Under-18 people who were already abiding by the rules.

 

[Merseysider]

This:

Give up your seat for others

I see as complete BS.

A teenager is just as entitled to sit down as a 30 (or whatever) year old.

Any signage regarding priority seating for disabled, pregnant passengers etc applies to all, not just U18s, but this wording seems to suggest U18s should have to relinquish their seat for anyone.

 

[43066]

I've never seen such outrageous stereotyping in my life as on this page:

Rules of travel for under 18s

Young Person's Behaviour Code for travel on all TfL services

tfl.gov.uk

Let me quote it for you.



I don't think I can express how genuinely I angry I am having read this. Why on earth should these rules - don't swear or put your feet on seats, don't smoke or dodge fares - be dedicated in a list of rules specifically to Under 18s? That is genuinely the most stereotypical and anti-customer thing I've ever seen. Absolutely everything in this list should also apply to everyone else on the train, whether it's the 78 year old biddy popping to Gants Hill to see her sister, or the 35 year old business man travelling to Holborn.

Actually, the outlier there is "Give up your seat for others." What?? You're young, so you're expected to give up your seat for over 18s. Tosh. For an old lady or pregnant woman, sure, but not for just anyone purely because they're an adult and the child isn't.

I know a lot of you will think I'm overreacting, and a lot of you will comment on the tendency of teenage gangs to act in anti-social behaviour, but this has genuinely outraged me, and I will be writing to TfL to ask them why they think it is appropriate to list these rules as a specially designated list for Under 18s.

Shocked and appalled, frankly. These aren't the 1800s.

I can remember signs on London buses saying children must give up their seats if adults are standing (and I’m not even that old!).

I generally agree with you - it also doesn’t generally seem to be under 18s who indulge in the worst behaviour! These rules are what used to be known as common courtesy and should be obvious to all passengers. The fact they are not says something very worrying about the society we live in.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It may seem like a major overreaction here, but what's really set me off is that this attitude is so common on the railway.
An example, I'm 19 now, but two or three years ago I tried to board a Voyager at Stockport, and the catering host just would not let me board at the first class door because he could not believe a teenager would have a first class ticket. He went bright red when I produced it - I hadn't produced it immediately because the stubbornness in me thought why the heck should I prove myself?

 

[43066]

This:

I see as complete BS.

A teenager is just as entitled to sit down as a 30 (or whatever) year old.

I assume this is meant to mean giving seats up for disabled, elderly people etc. Agreed that isn’t made clear.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I can remember signs on London buses saying children must give up their seats if adults are standing (and I’m not even that old!).

That's shocking. Makes me think of that Victorian saying, "children should be seen and not heard."

 

[Merseysider]

it also doesn’t generally seem to be under 18s who indulge in the worst behaviour!

I agree.

Speaking as a teacher who takes public transport 6/7 days a week, and is cooped up with U18s most of the working day () I have to say that teenagers might not be perfect but drunken / loud / obnoxious football fans are far worse for disrupting journeys.

Shall we have a code of conduct purely for football fans?

 

[zwk500]

It may seem like a major overreaction here, but what's really set me off is that this attitude is so common on the railway.
An example, I'm 19 now, but two or three years ago I tried to board a Voyager at Stockport, and the catering host just would not let me board at the first class door because he could not believe a teenager would have a first class ticket. He went bright red when I produced it - I hadn't produced it immediately because the stubbornness in me thought why the heck should I prove myself?

You should prove you hold a 1st class ticket to enter a 1st class ticket holders only area, 16 years old or not. If the staff member was being rude or aggressive when first challenging, I'd have just walked to the next door and walked through.
I will say that when I was 20 or 21 I bought myself a 1st class ticket on LNER for York-KGX (the upgrade was cheaper than the wifi would have been for the journey in standard) and boarded in tatty jeans, a t-shirt and hoodie and nobody said a word to me (other than to check the rugby score they'd spotted on my laptop).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You should prove you hold a 1st class ticket to enter a 1st class ticket holders only area, 16 years old or not. If the staff member was being rude or aggressive when first challenging, I'd have just walked to the next door and walked through.
I will say that when I was 20 or 21 I bought myself a 1st class ticket on LNER for York-KGX (the upgrade was cheaper than the wifi would have been for the journey in standard) and boarded in tatty jeans, a t-shirt and hoodie and nobody said a word to me (other than to check the rugby score they'd spotted on my laptop).

I've also had incidents where a member of staff has walked through the train, spoken to no one, and then seen me, checked just my ticket, and walked on. I seem to remember I was wearing a tracksuit that day.
It's unconscious bias.

 

[Merseysider]

I've also had incidents where a member of staff has walked through the train, spoken to no one, and then seen me, checked just my ticket, and walked on. I seem to remember I was wearing a tracksuit that day.
It's unconscious bias.

I’ve seen that too - FC hosts walking straight to youths, foreigners with luggage or “normal passenger” looking folk with a beer to check their ticket and then either not checking the rest of the carriage or doing so several minutes later.

God forbid someone under 18, from a different country, or who enjoys a casual drink purchase a first class ticket

 

[43066]

That's shocking. Makes me think of that Victorian saying, "children should be seen and not heard."

I’m all for that. I’d rather not see them either!

I agree.

Speaking as a teacher who takes public transport 6/7 days a week, and is cooped up with U18s most of the working day () I have to say that teenagers might not be perfect but drunken / loud / obnoxious football fans are far worse for disrupting journeys.

Shall we have a code of conduct purely for football fans?

Agreed. Just an hour ago I was on a train where two middle aged alcoholics were annoying the whole carriage having a loud speakerphone conversation. They got up to leave and one of them lit a cigarette in the carriage thirty seconds before the doors opened. That’s what I call anti social behaviour.

The worst I’ve seen from under 18s is occasional boisterous school kids.

 

[JaJaWa]

The page is in the “Free and discounted travel” section of the website, it applies to those travelling for free and those that don’t follow the rules can/will have their free travel withdrawn

 

[RJ]

You should prove you hold a 1st class ticket to enter a 1st class ticket holders only area, 16 years old or not.

In reality the majority of customers aren’t treated like that - certainly on the intercity trains passengers tend to be greeted with a warm smile and tickets are usually checked once passengers are seated.

However exceptions tend to be made on the basis of a customer’s appearance and it’s understandable why someone might take exception to that. Treating people less favourably based on certain factors of their appearance is discrimination - age being one of them. Either make everybody show their ticket before they’re allowed to enter (like airlines do), or nobody unless there’s a very good reason to.

Having been on one of those ECML trains and being asked four times if I knew I was in First then asked to show a ticket before being allowed to sit down, I get why people don’t like it. I was a first class CSA before that incident and simply didn’t treat any customer like that, it was down to the guard to check tickets. We were specifically trained not to challenge passengers.

 

[KGX]

The point is that it's needlessly aggravating for precisely zero effectiveness. Do you really think that people who damaged property, smoked or assaulted people on board are going to say 'hold on now, there's a list of things on a website saying we shouldn't be doing this?'. No, they're going to be completely unaffected by this. The list doesn't provide any more grounds to eject people or withdraw travel passes than TfL already had, so it's utterly pointless, except it pisses off Under-18 people who were already abiding by the rules.

I think the point is more that TfL can withdraw the Zip Oyster in line with a breach of the rules. Not that the rules themselves are going to stop anti-social behaviour, but if they catch someone doing x, y or z they can confiscate vs published ts&cs.

They need to move on from kids giving up seats for adults though. There’s been a generational shift and that just doesn’t happen anymore.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The page is in the “Free and discounted travel” section of the website, it applies to those travelling for free and those that don’t follow the rules can/will have their free travel withdrawn

No, I'm sorry, but the title is Rules for Under 18s, and therefore whether intentional or not it is worded as applying to all.

 

[Runningaround]

If it's aimed at those travelling free or at significant discount, shouldn't it include rail staff and other pass holders too? ''You misbehave and lose your privileges'' and ''if you are travelling for free or at a big discount on a busy service give up your seat''.

I find it strange that there is any need to put messages up on how to behave or what manners are. I'd not seen a poster on either in Milan but on all public transport I witnessed youngsters offering their seat to older passengers, not only if the train was packed but even if the seat was in a more convenient place like nearer the doors.

 

[Parjon]

How dare organisations set out minimum standards of behaviour from children using their services indeed!!

If feral (or overly privileged) parents don't set boundaries for their offspring then what right does a service provider have!

Of course now they have published the list of unacceptable behaviours, it means that they can remove a privilege if the rules are broken. Whether the individuals read the rules or not.

No, I'm sorry, but the title is Rules for Under 18s, and therefore whether intentional or not it is worded as applying to all.

"Our Young Person's Behaviour Code exists to ensure you travel safely and show respect for others.
You must follow it or you risk losing your concession or your Zip Oyster photocard."

No zip, no concession, no available sanction = no rules applicable to the child (beyond the ones that apply to us all).

 

[thedbdiboy]

I've never seen such outrageous stereotyping in my life as on this page:

Rules of travel for under 18s

Young Person's Behaviour Code for travel on all TfL services

tfl.gov.uk

Let me quote it for you.



I don't think I can express how genuinely I angry I am having read this. Why on earth should these rules - don't swear or put your feet on seats, don't smoke or dodge fares - be dedicated in a list of rules specifically to Under 18s? That is genuinely the most stereotypical and anti-customer thing I've ever seen. Absolutely everything in this list should also apply to everyone else on the train, whether it's the 78 year old biddy popping to Gants Hill to see her sister, or the 35 year old business man travelling to Holborn.

Actually, the outlier there is "Give up your seat for others." What?? You're young, so you're expected to give up your seat for over 18s. Tosh. For an old lady or pregnant woman, sure, but not for just anyone purely because they're an adult and the child isn't.

I know a lot of you will think I'm overreacting, and a lot of you will comment on the tendency of teenage gangs to act in anti-social behaviour, but this has genuinely outraged me, and I will be writing to TfL to ask them why they think it is appropriate to list these rules as a specially designated list for Under 18s.

Shocked and appalled, frankly. These aren't the 1800s.

I must be the only one who doesn't see the problem. It's just guidelines and keep in mind the vast majority of under 18s will follow it, it's more aimed at the annoying snots who cause trouble. Free travel is a perk not a right.

Why should those rules apply to under 18s and not everyone else?

It is essentially the conditions under-18s should observe in return for the free or concession travel that they get. I'm not going to enter the fray as to the rights and wrongs, but I suspect that elsewhere in the country most parents would be happy to accept these terms if in return their kids got free bus travel

 

[zwk500]

How dare organisations set out minimum standards of behaviour from children using their services indeed!!

Nothing on this list applies specifically to children, nor is it reasonable to single them out for these behaviours.

If feral (or overly privileged) parents don't set boundaries for their offspring then what right does a service provider have!

Often it's the children with no parents (or no relationship with their parents) who end up keeping company that behaves like this. It's not just parents failing the children.

Of course now they have published the list of unacceptable behaviours, it means that they can remove a privilege if the rules are broken. Whether the individuals read the rules or not.

They could do this beforehand, it didn't need a separate list.

 

[Parjon]

If they didn't publish the list they couldn't apply the perfectly reasonable, sensible sanction.