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APT return to running?

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trebor79

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I'm idly wondering if there is any technical reasons why the surviving APT vehicles could not be returned to use for railtours (or even spot hire).
I know lots of money would be required, and a solution to the now removed trackside equipment that authorised tilt and speed found. But is there a fundamental reason why it couldn't happen?

Preservation movement is achieving things that seemed unthinkable a couple of decades ago, so who knows?
 
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alexl92

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As we often say here, anything is possible with enough money thrown at it. I presume you’re referring to the APT-E rather than the gas turbine one. I think the issue might be simply that it’s such a unique piece of kit that finding parts etc might be incredibly challenging, and electric units aren‘t likely to pay their own way in the same way a vintage steam or diesel loco would.
 

Starmill

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And the vehicles haven't moved in years and are in a poor condition.
 

david1212

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If the huge cost was paid the operating opportunities would be very limited. Did the ( electric ) APT operate anywhere other than West Coast? Would it be allowed now without a lot of testing for clearances, electrical interference with signals etc.? Remember too the sets that did operate were not exactly reliable then so 40+ years later realistically unlikely to be better.

Steam and 1950's - 1960's diesels are technically far less complex. For the latter parts are the issue, for the former from a practical aspect so much is just casting, machining and forming metal.
For the APT so much will be obsolete.
 

L401CJF

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To add to the reasons given above, I remember a while ago following some progress of the work undertaken to it at Crewe Heritage Centre over recent years. i am pretty sure it was on a Facebook group. I left Facebook a couple of years ago now so cant remember the name of the page - it had videos of the tilt being operated for the first time in decades, along with photos of various bits and pieces.

Either way the point I wanted to make was that I remember seeing posts with photos of various big wiring looms being sliced. I can't remember if it was due to some bits and pieces of kit being removed, or if it was done when it was withdrawn.

Either way with something as unique and as complex as the APT I would imagine it would be a huge task to rectify. Presumably possible at great expense - if the wiring diagrams exist, and any removed kit (if any) is even in existence or possible to have manufactured.

Factor in all of the above posts too and it seems very unlikely. I could see a market for it - particularly with the likes of LSL as their Intercity style tours seem to be popular. But realistically even if it was possible, with the costs etc involved, would it ever be able to pay for itself?

Never say never...
 

Flying Phil

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Whilst I would love to see the APT run again the cost would be horrendous.......(would we know if a pendulino had a repaint and had an APT cab installed at both ends?):rolleyes:
 

43066

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I'm idly wondering if there is any technical reasons why the surviving APT vehicles could not be returned to use for railtours (or even spot hire).
I know lots of money would be required, and a solution to the now removed trackside equipment that authorised tilt and speed found. But is there a fundamental reason why it couldn't happen?

Preservation movement is achieving things that seemed unthinkable a couple of decades ago, so who knows?

I’m assuming this question was promoted by the rather excellent video below?! I must confess, since watching it, I’ve been having similar thoughts myself!



 

zwk500

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Given the changes in technology and the likely obsolescence of the original specification, not to mention the fact it was only ever a prototype and so there's no handy source of spares, any attempt to restore it to mainline condition would result in nothing more than a hollow shell with a modern unit inside. It'd be about as convincing as LSL's Blue Pullman HST, and less original than the 5BEL trust's proposals. Yes, all heritage engines are like this to some degree, but the point is: do people want to preserve it for engineering reasons or 'look and feel'?
 

trebor79

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I’m assuming this question was promoted by the rather excellent video below?! I must confess, since watching it, I’ve been having similar thoughts myself!



I don't think I've seen that video before - I'll check it out thanks!
Actually it was prompted by my reading on Christian Wolmars History of BR book, which is a bit of a potted history and has a few pages about APT. It's a train I've always been intrigued by and wish I'd had a ride when it was operating (even though I'd have been a very small boy). My dad (not a rail enthusiast) rode it a couple of times by chance but can't recall much

There are three machines I wish I'd ridden/seen when I had the chance:
Concorde
The Vulcan
APT

Given the changes in technology and the likely obsolescence of the original specification, not to mention the fact it was only ever a prototype and so there's no handy source of spares, any attempt to restore it to mainline condition would result in nothing more than a hollow shell with a modern unit inside. It'd be about as convincing as LSL's Blue Pullman HST, and less original than the 5BEL trust's proposals. Yes, all heritage engines are like this to some degree, but the point is: do people want to preserve it for engineering reasons or 'look and feel'?
Well all the unique parts built specifically for APT could presumably be remanufactured at the same sort of cost as the originals (allowing for inflation of course). The motors are just motors. 1980's electronics might be more difficult of course but grafting a modern traction package onto 1980's trains has been done before (321 etc).
The entire APT project spend was less than £30m in 1980's money and that included a lot of fundamental research into vehicle dynamics.

I'm not pretending it would be cheap, indeed it would be very expensive. But if someone with the money came along would it be feasible is the question I'm asking? It does look so modern, even 40 years later.
 

zwk500

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It'd probably be cheaper to build a lookalike using an Avelia Pendolino as a base and fitting it with the same tilting kit as our Pendolinos.
In a way, it'd be incredibly appropriate to do so as the Pendo tiliting kit was developed from the ATP gear that was sold off to Fiat when the project was canned!
 

Flying Snail

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I don't think I've seen that video before - I'll check it out thanks!
Actually it was prompted by my reading on Christian Wolmars History of BR book, which is a bit of a potted history and has a few pages about APT. It's a train I've always been intrigued by and wish I'd had a ride when it was operating (even though I'd have been a very small boy). My dad (not a rail enthusiast) rode it a couple of times by chance but can't recall much

There are three machines I wish I'd ridden/seen when I had the chance:
Concorde
The Vulcan
APT


Well all the unique parts built specifically for APT could presumably be remanufactured at the same sort of cost as the originals (allowing for inflation of course). The motors are just motors. 1980's electronics might be more difficult of course but grafting a modern traction package onto 1980's trains has been done before (321 etc).
The entire APT project spend was less than £30m in 1980's money and that included a lot of fundamental research into vehicle dynamics.

I'm not pretending it would be cheap, indeed it would be very expensive. But if someone with the money came along would it be feasible is the question I'm asking? It does look so modern, even 40 years later.

The answer is always going to be that with enough money and time you could do pretty much any restoration or rebuilding.

Sadly the biggest obstacle to restoring it would be that only 5 trailers exist, not even a full half-set, that and finding a very rich benefactor of course.

Unlike yourself I got to ride it once, as a small boy, and even got shown around the cab by the driver, photos exist, they aren't going on the internet.
 

tomuk

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In a way, it'd be incredibly appropriate to do so as the Pendo tiliting kit was developed from the ATP gear that was sold off to Fiat when the project was canned!
Well actually the tilting kit in the 390 Pendolinos is electric and originally designed by the Swiss company SIG and is not related to the hydraulic system Fiat used on the other Pendolinos which does include some APT tech.

The 221 Super Voyagers do use a hydrulic system but these was developed from the system used on the Canadian LRC train a 'competitor' of the APT
 

zwk500

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Well actually the tilting kit in the 390 Pendolinos is electric and originally designed by the Swiss company SIG and is not related to the hydraulic system Fiat used on the other Pendolinos which does include some APT tech.

The 221 Super Voyagers do use a hydrulic system but these was developed from the system used on the Canadian LRC train a 'competitor' of the APT
Interesting, thanks!
 

Alanko

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And the vehicles haven't moved in years and are in a poor condition.

I follow the restoration on Facebook. The attached text is taken from their page. They are doing commendable work on maintaining the cosmetic appearance of what is left. The condition of some of the stuff they work on is pretty rough, and some of the surviving systems look bafflingly complex.
F7AC019F-7573-466E-845C-FD2078C5663C.jpeg
 
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LOL The Irony

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Fitting APT style cabs would certainly make the Pendolino look much better than they do...
Pendolino cabs look better though.
I follow the restoration on Facebook. The attached text is taken from their page. They are doing commendable work on maintaining the cosmetic appearance of what is left. The condition of some of the stuff they work on is pretty rough, and some of the surviving systems look bafflingly complex.
Does heritage stock have to meet PRM standards? AFAIK they don't, otherwise we'd only be allowed the modified Mk3s and Mk4s on railtours. Also, they could simply get a derogation to run without wheelchair spaces, if they won't be treated as heritage stock.
 

LOL The Irony

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It is perhaps a slightly creative list of reasons for not returning the APT to the mainline.

The first sentence is basically "it's ours and we aren't going to".
Agreed. It isn't "impossible" to return it to the mainline, it's prohibitively expensive for the group. The wheelchair thing seems like an excuse and they say the tilt system needs to be isolated because of the restricted speed (like it's a big job anyways), but then say the system is shot and would have to be isolated regardless.

The entire thing reads more like a list of excuses rather than reasons it won't happen.
 

zwk500

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Pendolino cabs look better though.

Does heritage stock have to meet PRM standards? AFAIK they don't, otherwise we'd only be allowed the modified Mk3s and Mk4s on railtours. Also, they could simply get a derogation to run without wheelchair spaces, if they won't be treated as heritage stock.
Heritage stock must make reasonable adjustment for accessibility. Usually some wheelchair accommodation is offered using the guard's compartment, but sometimes the grandfather rights allow them to claim any adjustment would not be 'reasonable'.
The entire thing reads more like a list of excuses rather than reasons it won't happen.
Tbf it's a fairly frank list of reasons why it's never going to be worth the money. There's a bit of 'it's mine and I'm not letting it go', but then how many prospective purchasers would have any intention of doing anything more than a static exhibit? At least at Crewe Heritage Centre it's accessible to the public next to the line it ran on, and visiting helps the heritage centre. Can't say it'd be doing as much good sitting in another museum run privately. The only place it may get slightly better attention is with the NRM, but they've already got their hands full with other bits of rare stock to look after.
 

pdeaves

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I follow the restoration on Facebook. The attached text is taken from their page. They are doing commendable work on maintaining the cosmetic appearance of what is left. The condition of some of the stuff they work on is pretty rough, and some of the surviving systems look bafflingly complex.
View attachment 118706
Interesting that it says 'both diesel engines would need refurbishing...'. What diesel engines? (serious question).
 

LOL The Irony

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Heritage stock must make reasonable adjustment for accessibility. Usually some wheelchair accommodation is offered using the guard's compartment, but sometimes the grandfather rights allow them to claim any adjustment would not be 'reasonable'.
Well since it's now a 1 of 1, they could easily make the claim that modifying it wouldn't be reasonable.
Tbf it's a fairly frank list of reasons why it's never going to be worth the money.
I agree there are genuine reasons in there, but throwing in such poor excuses cheapens the point you're making.
Interesting that it says 'both diesel engines would need refurbishing...'. What diesel engines? (serious question).
The donkey engines in each driving vehicle that were to be used in the event of breakdown/emergency.
 

43096

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It is perhaps a slightly creative list of reasons for not returning the APT to the mainline.
Only slightly; the PRM compliance isn't required for charter workings, but is obviously something you'd want to do.
The first sentence is basically "it's ours and we aren't going to".
And it is absolutely their prerogative to do so. Better a healthy dose of realism than the naïve chancers we too often see.

They know the train better than anyone else and the limitations of what is realistic.
 

Alanko

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Interesting that it says 'both diesel engines would need refurbishing...'. What diesel engines? (serious question).

I gather they had small Diesel engines behind each cab to provide hotel power if the APT was being dragged or otherwise not able to draw enough power.

And it is absolutely their prerogative to do so. Better a healthy dose of realism than the naïve chancers we too often see.

They know the train better than anyone else and the limitations of what is realistic.


On this point I absolutely agree. We are lucky to have as much of it left, and they are doing a good job of presenting and interpreting it.


I don't know heaps about the APT, but having a windowless power car stuck somewhere in the consist seems a little unrefined? Could passengers creep through it (with earplugs in?) while the thing was in operation? Was the plan ultimately to improve this element of the design?
 

Efini92

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I’m assuming this question was promoted by the rather excellent video below?! I must confess, since watching it, I’ve been having similar thoughts myself!



Nice video, it’d be nice to see it do a speed run again from London - Glasgow.

Is that Nigel Mansell selling tickets at 19:26? :D
 

hexagon789

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I don't know heaps about the APT, but having a windowless power car stuck somewhere in the consist seems a little unrefined? Could passengers creep through it (with earplugs in?) while the thing was in operation? Was the plan ultimately to improve this element of the design?
Your earphones might not be much use afterwards!

Theoretically passengers could walk through, but in practice it was discouraged. Persons with pacemakers were strongly advised not to due to the very strong magnetic fields in the power cars.

I gather they had small Diesel engines behind each cab to provide hotel power if the APT was being dragged or otherwise not able to draw enough power.
Precisely that.

Also, they could simply get a derogation to run without wheelchair spaces
The APT-P ran in service with wheelchair accommodation - one space in each Trailer Brake First, adjacent to the guard's office.
 

43096

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So as I figured, their excuse about wheelchair access was exactly that.
Ah, the armchair expert is out... Have you actually looked at the vehicle to understand what needs to be done to give full access?

Even if it is OK, there's a lengthy list of other stuff preventing this happening - or are you going to tell us that's all rubbish as well?
 
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