Are Groupsave tickets now accepted on Crosscountry trains?

[XC victim]

I am travelling from Banbury to Paddington via Reading. We are a group of 4 or 5, looking on Trainline it offers us a Groupsave ticket but I thought these weren’t accepted on CrossCountry

 

[Haywain]

Groupsave isn't valid on CrossCountry.

 

[Alex365Dash]

I am travelling from Banbury to Paddington via Reading. We are a group of 4 or 5, looking on Trainline it offers us a Groupsave ticket but I thought these weren’t accepted on CrossCountry

You'd be correct - GroupSave tickets aren't valid on CrossCountry services.
They're however valid on both Chiltern and GWR, so you could travel on the limited GWR service down to Oxford or Didcot Parkway and change there.

If you wish to travel with CrossCountry, they unfortunately don't offer any group discounts for groups of under 10.

 

[virgintrain1]

Trainline and GroupSave is a massive pain as they do not tell you what TOCs it is or isn't valid on. It only says condition of GroupSave: Travel together and travel off peak.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Trainline and GroupSave is a massive pain as they do not tell you what TOCs it is or isn't valid on. It only says condition of GroupSave: Travel together and travel off peak.

But it won't sell you one on an invalid itinerary. But no ticket seller lists all the conditions on every ticket and if you're going to list one condition for one ticket it seems pointless.

 

[virgintrain1]

But it won't sell you one on an invalid itinerary. But no ticket seller lists all the conditions on every ticket and if you're going to list one condition for one ticket it seems pointless.

Given so many TOCs don't accept them and tickets offices were instructed to explicitly state this when selling them. Surely not mentioning this is just asking for trouble.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Given so many TOCs don't accept them and tickets offices were instructed to explicitly state this when selling them. Surely not mentioning this is just asking for trouble.

But so are very many other conditions

 

[virgintrain1]

Are you staying ticket offices shouldn't tell people? The reason these tickets were not available on the fast ticket machines was this very problem. The nature of GroupSave tickets and 'Any Permitted' mean it has to be explained.

If pax board an Avanti service etc and get charged new tickets it seems very unfair if the paxs were not informed if this restriction when the tickets were sold regardless of where they were sold.

 

[TUC]

Wouldn't the fact that you need to select specific journeys for ticket issuing purposes when buying online ((even though in reality you can use any journey within the conditions of the ticket) mean that it should be possible for the results to highlight which journeys Groupsave is valid on)?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Are you staying ticket offices shouldn't tell people? The reason these tickets were not available on the fast ticket machines was this very problem. The nature of GroupSave tickets and 'Any Permitted' mean it has to be explained.

If pax board an Avanti service etc and get charged new tickets it seems very unfair if the paxs were not informed if this restriction when the tickets were sold regardless of where they were sold.

I can buy an Avanti only Any Permitted ticket & no one says the condition is it's for Avanti only. So why is this different. There are much less obvious restrictions that aren't highlighted why single this one out?

 

[virgintrain1]

I can buy an Avanti only Any Permitted ticket & no one says the condition is it's for Avanti only. So why is this different. There are much less obvious restrictions that aren't highlighted why single this one out?

It's highlighted as multiple people are getting charged a day without realising the issue. However the issue probably lies with the way GroupSave tickets are worded a big debate on the forum previously.

Groupsave and XC

Travelled with XC from Birmingham to Reading today and the Guard was raking in the money with upgrades from Groupsave tickets which XC don't accept. To be fair to him he did say he hoped XC would soon start accepting them not they were part of DB like Chiltern but equally he could ahve warned...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Deafdoggie]

It's highlighted as multiple people are getting charged a day without realising the issue. However the issue probably lies with the way GroupSave tickets are worded a big debate on the forum previously.

Groupsave and XC

Travelled with XC from Birmingham to Reading today and the Guard was raking in the money with upgrades from Groupsave tickets which XC don't accept. To be fair to him he did say he hoped XC would soon start accepting them not they were part of DB like Chiltern but equally he could ahve warned...

www.railforums.co.uk

Multiple people are charged a day with TOC only tickets, yet no one highlights this. Why highlight just this one restriction?

 

[Deerfold]

Multiple people are charged a day with TOC only tickets, yet no one highlights this. Why highlight just this one restriction?

Don't TOC only tickets say this on the tickets?

Do Groupsave tickets say they're not valid on Cross Country on them?

 

[gnolife]

I can buy an Avanti only Any Permitted ticket & no one says the condition is it's for Avanti only. So why is this different. There are much less obvious restrictions that aren't highlighted why single this one out?

You can't, because there's no such thing. Any Permitted and Avanti only are two completely different route restrictions

 

[redreni]

But it won't sell you one on an invalid itinerary. But no ticket seller lists all the conditions on every ticket and if you're going to list one condition for one ticket it seems pointless.

That'd be a good excuse in the case of a ticket that is only valid on the booked train. Although even then, it's important to say if there's a TOC restriction because it may become relevant in the event of disruption.

If the ticket is valid on trains other than those listed on the itinerary, don't you think the retailer ought to tell the passenger which trains those are?

 

[Deafdoggie]

If the ticket is valid on trains other than those listed on the itinerary, don't you think the retailer ought to tell the passenger which trains those are?

In many cases that would be a mighty long list of trains! I suspect most passengers don't want pages and pages and pages of other trains

 

[Deerfold]

In many cases that would be a mighty long list of trains! I suspect most passengers don't want pages and pages and pages of other trains

Perhaps they could summarise it by saying which train companies they're valid on (or which they aren't).

 

[redreni]

In many cases that would be a mighty long list of trains! I suspect most passengers don't want pages and pages and pages of other trains

I suspect most passengers would assume, in the absence of a clear TOC restriction, that their ticket is valid on any train and - as we've established - will get stung for an excess if nobody tells them otherwise.

I'm not sure I follow your argument. You can't really be saying the ticketing rules are too complicated to be conveyed to passengers and consequently we have to accept that they just pick a train and get charged an excess if it's the wrong one, can you?

 

[kieron]

Perhaps they could summarise it by saying which train companies they're valid on (or which they aren't).

Not for GroupSave, as the restrictions are more complex than that. In any case, there isn't a space on the ticket for that sort of detail.

To me, the ticket seller should tell the customer that a discount has been applied to the ticket, and that this may restrict how the ticket may be used, should provide an easy way to find out the restrictions for that discount, and should give the customer a way to buy without the discount.

 

[virgintrain1]

Not for GroupSave, as the restrictions are more complex than that. In any case, there isn't a space on the ticket for that sort of detail.

To me, the ticket seller should tell the customer that a discount has been applied to the ticket, and that this may restrict how the ticket may be used, should provide an easy way to find out the restrictions for that discount, and should give the customer a way to buy without the discount.

So say a group of paxs are buying tickets for a day trip to the city. Say Coventry to Birmingham.

As a staff you say they can save a 1/3 each with GroupSave.

50% of the trains between the stations are operated by a TOCs that doesn't accept GroupSave.

The TOC that accepts GroupSave takes longer as it's the stopper. Meaning it's less desirable to pick.

So you're saying you don't think it would appropriate to advise the passengers that their tickets wouldn't be valid on some of the TOCs that operate the route you are selling?

 

[redreni]

Not for GroupSave, as the restrictions are more complex than that. In any case, there isn't a space on the ticket for that sort of detail.

To me, the ticket seller should tell the customer that a discount has been applied to the ticket, and that this may restrict how the ticket may be used, should provide an easy way to find out the restrictions for that discount, and should give the customer a way to buy without the discount.

I don't think the phrase "this may restrict how the ticket may be used" is a very good one. It could mean almost anything.

Does it restrict how you can use the ticket or doesn't it? What form will any restriction on how you can use the ticket take? Can you only travel in odd-numbered carriages in seats facing against the direction of travel, unless it's a full moon in which case you have to stand on one leg in the vestibule like a Flamingo? Do you have to stand on your head when you scan the ticket at the barrier?

If the restrictions can't feasibly be explained to the person buying the ticket, the restrictions are unreasonable. And when a person has bought a flexible ticket, it certainly isn't reasonable to work on the assumption that they will stick to the itinerary (if any) that was issued to them when they bought their ticket; they have chosen a ticket type that means they don't have to stick to that itinerary.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I suspect most passengers would assume, in the absence of a clear TOC restriction, that their ticket is valid on any train and - as we've established - will get stung for an excess if nobody tells them otherwise.

I'm not sure I follow your argument. You can't really be saying the ticketing rules are too complicated to be conveyed to passengers and consequently we have to accept that they just pick a train and get charged an excess if it's the wrong one, can you?

I'm saying ticket rules are very complex. A lot of rail staff don't understand them. What hope do passengers have?
If I got a ticket and was told a TOC didn't take them, I'd certainly assume there were no other problems in using any train and no other restrictions. Why tell me just one condition if there are more? What makes this one condition more important than all the others? Highlighting just one condition and ignoring all the rest will only add more problems.

 

[yorkie]

If a passenger isn't advised of the conditions at the time of purchase, TOCs who refuse to accept these tickets, such as XC, are potentially in breach of consumer/contract law if they charge for a new ticket.

Charging the difference would be much more acceptable, but XC, Avanti etc are not exactly known for having a customer-focussed attitude; their attitude appears to very much be a case of customers are a huge inconvenience to the running of the service, and there to be milked.

A class action claim might have merit, but it's probably not big enough to get funding, which is perhaps fortunate for unscrupulous TOCs such as XC.

 

[redreni]

I'm saying ticket rules are very complex. A lot of rail staff don't understand them. What hope do passengers have?
If I got a ticket and was told a TOC didn't take them, I'd certainly assume there were no other problems in using any train and no other restrictions. Why tell me just one condition if there are more? What makes this one condition more important than all the others? Highlighting just one condition and ignoring all the rest will only add more problems.

And I am not advocating only telling passengers about one of the restrictions.

 

[Deafdoggie]

And I am not advocating only telling passengers about one of the restrictions.

But if we tell everyone everything it's going to get very time consuming selling tickets. Particularly as many staff selling them don't understand all the rules either.

 

[yorkie]

TOC restrictions should be printed on the ticket; this used to be part of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Removing that provision was one of the many awful ways in which conditions have become worse and/or less clear for passengers.

There's also no way that TOCs such as XC should be allowed to get out of schemes such as GroupSave but that's a different topic.

If someone at XC/DfT was to ask me how they could deter people travelling, to justify getting rid of rolling stock and reduce crowding, I'd basically say carry on what you are doing!

 

[redreni]

But if we tell everyone everything it's going to get very time consuming selling tickets. Particularly as many staff selling them don't understand all the rules either.

In a properly regulated industry it would not, in my humble opinion, even be possible to have a debate about whether people buying a thing should be told what they're buying.

 

[Deafdoggie]

In a properly regulated industry it would not, in my humble opinion, even be possible to have a debate about whether people buying a thing should be told what they're buying.

The reality is many staff don't know/understand/care about the rules. If the ticket seller did painfully explain every condition on the ticket correctly, it doesn't matter if they encounter a member of staff on the journey who is clueless and denies travel. If every member of staff knew the rules correctly about every ticket it might be different. But there's no way that will happen.

 

[Graham H]

I just looked up Banbury to Reading for 4 people at off peak times using National Rail site. Very clearly (to me) I am offered two fares. £41 on certain trains and £62.40 on all the others. Diving down then the £41 is GW and group save, the more expensive is XC. If I select my outward journey for the £41 then the list of return trains I can get an itinerary for excludes all XC and just shows the GW ones. Click the £62.40 option and then all trains will show as useable for the return. Likewise the National Rail site lists all TOC participating in group save and XC among others isnt shown
While I consider this as a clear indication that Group Save isnt useable on XC I wonder if other booking sites clarify this or indeed if I wandered into Banbury station and asked for groupsave would the TVM or booking office tell me or would they assume I had done my homework ?
I seem to recall that GroupSave was a Network Southeast initiaitive wasnt it so at the time only available for certain routes. The problem comes where multiple TOC's run the route and even more so for places like Banbury where the participating TOC runs a very limited trains service compared to XC

 

[TUC]

The reality is many staff don't know/understand/care about the rules. If the ticket seller did painfully explain every condition on the ticket correctly, it doesn't matter if they encounter a member of staff on the journey who is clueless and denies travel. If every member of staff knew the rules correctly about every ticket it might be different. But there's no way that will happen.

However, it has never been easier for a member of staff faced with an unfamiliar ticket to look up relevant restrictions on the spot.