Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

[Mwanesh]

The Arriva Shires busines has been a mess since it was disbanded. Leicester and Maidstine dont seem to care. The 724 is a route that should be properly serviced and equiped.

 

[SSmith2009]

The Arriva Shires busines has been a mess since it was disbanded. Leicester and Maidstine dont seem to care. The 724 is a route that should be properly serviced and equiped.

Leicester operations have become terrible since Wigston closed (most routes moved to Thurmaston).

 

[A0]

The Arriva Shires busines has been a mess since it was disbanded. Leicester and Maidstine dont seem to care. The 724 is a route that should be properly serviced and equiped.

What do you mean that "The 724 is a route that should be properly serviced and equiped." (sic) ?

It's a medium distance bus route - which *primarily* serves a number of shorter journeys such as Harlow - Hertford, Hertford - Welwyn / Hatfield, Hatfield - St Albans / Watford.

It runs hourly most of the time (less on Sundays).

The grumble seems to be about the fact it uses "buses" rather than "coaches" - yet for most of its life it's had buses on it - originally the RP class Reliances, then Leyland Nationals (SNCs). It had a stint with "proper" coaches Reliances and Tigers but even then a substitution with a National was not uncommon. In the early 90s other things often appeared including Dennis Darts (in County Bus colours) and bus seated Tigers which County Bus had received from Jubilee Coaches. In the mid 90s it received new buses - Plaxton bodied DAFs then the Citaros. So for the vast majority of its life it's been served by bus vehicles - be that under London Country (LT), London Country (NBC), County Bus or Arriva.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What do you mean that "The 724 is a route that should be properly serviced and equiped." (sic) ?

It's a medium distance bus route - which *primarily* serves a number of shorter journeys such as Harlow - Hertford, Hertford - Welwyn / Hatfield, Hatfield - St Albans / Watford.

It runs hourly most of the time (less on Sundays).

The grumble seems to be about the fact it uses "buses" rather than "coaches" - yet for most of its life it's had buses on it - originally the RP class Reliances, then Leyland Nationals (SNCs). It had a stint with "proper" coaches Reliances and Tigers but even then a substitution with a National was not uncommon. In the early 90s other things often appeared including Dennis Darts (in County Bus colours) and bus seated Tigers which County Bus had received from Jubilee Coaches. In the mid 90s it received new buses - Plaxton bodied DAFs then the Citaros. So for the vast majority of its life it's been served by bus vehicles - be that under London Country (LT), London Country (NBC), County Bus or Arriva.

As ever, people tend to look at the route as an end-to-end entity when the reality is that it provides a number of overlapping, inter-urban journey options. That it could be better marketed is without question (usually Arriva criticism) or that the presentation of the fleet could be improved.

However, the e200mmc are not generally bad vehicles and I'm not certain that, aside from perhaps a luggage rack for the Heathrow end traffic, what else would be expected.

 

[MotCO]

However, the e200mmc are not generally bad vehicles and I'm not certain that, aside from perhaps a luggage rack for the Heathrow end traffic, what else would be expected.

High-backed coach seats, wifi, USB ports? (Not sure if they are already there, but useful for long distance passengers.)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

High-backed coach seats, wifi, USB ports? (Not sure if they are already there, but useful for long distance passengers.)

The vehicles do indeed have wifi and USB ports. The seats aren't coach seats but aren't bad - you can see on this photo courtesy of Gage 75.

DB Arriva SC • 4081 • YX17NGY

Route 724 (Greenline) : Heathrow Central, Bus Station - Harlow, Bus Station Watford Junction Bus Station

www.flickr.com

The worst aspect of the two vehicles I experienced in September were the ADL standard rattles, and the appalling presentation of the vehicles inside and out.

 

[Statto]

Question is with the 724, with a journey time over 3 hours most of the day, how many passengers actually travel end to end regularly? As said, the primary purpose is more East to West links across Hertfordshire. It's more economical to run as one route rather than splitting everywhere, although it splits at St Albans but buses operate through. I know it's under the Greenline brand but nowadays it feels more of an express bus route, than an express coach route.

 

[A0]

Question is with the 724, with a journey time over 3 hours most of the day, how many passengers actually travel end to end regularly, as said primary purpose is more East to West links across Hertfordshire, & it's more economical to run as one route, rather than splitting everywhere, although it splits at St Albans but buses operate through, i know it's under Greenline brand but nowadays it feels more of an express bus route, than an express coach route.

It's been an "express bus route" for the best part of 40 years - this is not some recent phenomenon.

In fact there was a period in the mid/late 80s where it had been re-numbered to 524 and only ran Harlow - Watford. The Heathrow extension was later reinstated.

What needs to be remembered is before the Heathrow rail link journeys to the Airport meant using the Piccadilly line which is both crowded and slow - it takes the best part of an hour from Kings Cross to Heathrow. With Crossrail, access to Heathrow will be one change away for Harlow (at Liverpool St), Hertford (at Liverpool St), Hatfield and Welwyn GC (at either Moorgate or Farringdon), St Albans (at Farringdon) and Watford (at Euston). There is probably a case for a bus between Watford and Heathrow via Rickmansworth, Denham etc. For the rest of the 724 the Airport link is of marginal use and in reality it's back to what was previously stated about the 724 being the enabler of shorter journeys e.g. Harlow - Hertford, Hertford - Hatfield etc.

 

[alex397]

I’m not sure if anyone has actually read my posts. I’m well aware that most passengers would travel medium distances on the 724, and most people are not travelling the full length of the route. Using coaches for the route would not be suitable due to its mixed use, but *ideally* there shouldn’t just be bog standard buses on the route. It is an express bus route, and on my trips using the route I did notice quite a few passengers travelling 1 hour plus on the route. And not just between two towns, but across 2 or 3 towns. And more the the Watford end it is useful for Heathrow, but not promoted enough.

My point is, going from Citaros with a luggage rack and better than average higher backed seating, with a prominent Greenline branding, down to just an average MMC in plain livery is a backwards step, and doesn’t do much to encourage more passengers, and more longer distance passengers.

There are vehicles I do see, mostly on the continent, which are a bus/coach hybrid which could be suitable for the 724. Of course, this is in an ideal world, as the bus industry isn’t in a good state now and Arriva are hardly likely to properly invest any more. I also accept that Crossrail will reduce demand further, but Arriva could have properly re-invested in the route years ago.

 

[A0]

I’m not sure if anyone has actually read my posts. I’m well aware that most passengers would travel medium distances on the 724, and most people are not travelling the full length of the route. Using coaches for the route would not be suitable due to its mixed use, but *ideally* there shouldn’t just be bog standard buses on the route. It is an express bus route, and on my trips using the route I did notice quite a few passengers travelling 1 hour plus on the route. And not just between two towns, but across 2 or 3 towns. And more the the Watford end it is useful for Heathrow, but not promoted enough.

My point is, going from Citaros with a luggage rack and better than average higher backed seating, with a prominent Greenline branding, down to just an average MMC in plain livery is a backwards step, and doesn’t do much to encourage more passengers, and more longer distance passengers.

There are vehicles I do see, mostly on the continent, which are a bus/coach hybrid which could be suitable for the 724. Of course, this is in an ideal world, as the bus industry isn’t in a good state now and Arriva are hardly likely to properly invest any more.

'Green Line' branding is an utter red herring. 40 years ago when there were Green Line services running to all sorts of places it had some resonance. Now it's an irrelevance. If anything it makes *far more* sense for it to be branded as an Arriva 'express' service or whatever brand they use. Yes, it will upset some rivet counters that the Green Line brand would be disappearing but for "Joe Public" it would be far more coherent.

None of the towns the 724 serves - Harlow, Ware, Hertford, Welwyn Gdn City, Hatfield, St Albans, Watford or Rickmansworth have any other Green Line services. In fact with the withdrawal of the Hemel - London service, there are no other Green Line services in Herts at all.

 

[markymark2000]

There are vehicles I do see, mostly on the continent, which are a bus/coach hybrid which could be suitable for the 724. Of course, this is in an ideal world, as the bus industry isn’t in a good state now and Arriva are hardly likely to properly invest any more. I also accept that Crossrail will reduce demand further, but Arriva could have properly re-invested in the route years ago.

The new Plaxton Panther LE

 

[A0]

I also accept that Crossrail will reduce demand further, but Arriva could have properly re-invested in the route years ago.

They did - in 1998 they bought new buses for the route in the form of DAF / Plaxton Prestiges and again in 2006 when they bought the Citaros, yet none of that seems to have improved the usage.

 

[alex397]

'Green Line' branding is an utter red herring. 40 years ago when there were Green Line services running to all sorts of places it had some resonance. Now it's an irrelevance. If anything it makes *far more* sense for it to be branded as an Arriva 'express' service or whatever brand they use. Yes, it will upset some rivet counters that the Green Line brand would be disappearing but for "Joe Public" it would be far more coherent.

None of the towns the 724 serves - Harlow, Ware, Hertford, Welwyn Gdn City, Hatfield, St Albans, Watford or Rickmansworth have any other Green Line services. In fact with the withdrawal of the Hemel - London service, there are no other Green Line services in Herts at all.

The history of the ‘Green Line’ brand isn’t why I want it to still be on the 724, but just having a brand is good for a unique route such as the 724. This isn’t about me being an enthusiast wanting to preserve history, but more the brand and decent livery (and Best Impressions designed I believe too)
There were times where I have overheard people waiting for the 724 back in the branded Citaro days, and heard them say things like ‘I’m waiting for the Green Line’ rather than just some random number. So, it’s a backwards step to remove this branding from this route I think. And, it doesn’t necessarily have to be Green Line, they could have changed the branding to Arriva Express like you suggest, although that’s not as catchy. And yes, this may sound like marketing mumbo jumbo, but it works.

They did - in 1998 they bought new buses for the route in the form of DAF / Plaxton Prestiges and again in 2006 when they bought the Citaros, yet none of that seems to have improved the usage.

I’m talking about more recent years, since the Citaros had their branding removed and eventually replaced by the MMCs. Surely it’s not just about improving usage, but keeping existing passengers too. I’m sure many of the operators that invest in higher spec buses with better seats and so on do it for good reason. I’m not saying it’s a guarantee to improve usage, but Arriva have a unique express bus route with good opportunities for direct buses to all sorts of places, but is simply not promoting it. Investment isn’t just about vehicles, but promotion too.

 

[DunsBus]

Arriva couldn't make it pay when they did have the depot at Scremerston near Berwick; hence why they sold out to Perrymans who later sold out themselves to WCM

And even WCM are struggling to make money in Berwick. It's easy to see just why Arriva bailed out.

 

[SteveHFC]

'Green Line' branding is an utter red herring. 40 years ago when there were Green Line services running to all sorts of places it had some resonance. Now it's an irrelevance. If anything it makes *far more* sense for it to be branded as an Arriva 'express' service or whatever brand they use. Yes, it will upset some rivet counters that the Green Line brand would be disappearing but for "Joe Public" it would be far more coherent.

None of the towns the 724 serves - Harlow, Ware, Hertford, Welwyn Gdn City, Hatfield, St Albans, Watford or Rickmansworth have any other Green Line services. In fact with the withdrawal of the Hemel - London service, there are no other Green Line services in Herts at all.

The 755/757 that runs between Luton Airport and London Victoria stops at Bricket Wood, which is in Hertfordshire.

 

[A0]

The 755/757 that runs between Luton Airport and London Victoria stops at Bricket Wood, which is in Hertfordshire.

I thought they'd removed that stop - but the point stands - 40 years ago Green Line was a network of services that's not the case now and I don't see the need for the Green Line branding on the 724 any more.

 

[Statto]

I thought they'd removed that stop - but the point stands - 40 years ago Green Line was a network of services that's not the case now and I don't see the need for the Green Line branding on the 724 any more.

Agreed, to late now but, max or sapphire branding would be better for the 724, Green Line brand feels like it's on it's last legs.

 

[Man of Kent]

Agreed, to late now but, max or sapphire branding would be better for the 724, Green Line brand feels like it's on it's last legs.

Max is already dead, and this week I learnt from a well-placed source that Sapphire is now on its way out too.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Max is already dead, and this week I learnt from a well-placed source that Sapphire is now on its way out too.

The fact that buses that were previously in Sapphire livery are being painted into standard livery confirms that.
What used to be a novelty on Sapphire buses (USB, wi-fi etc) is now standard spec so the brand is rather redundant.

 

[alex397]

I thought they'd removed that stop - but the point stands - 40 years ago Green Line was a network of services that's not the case now and I don't see the need for the Green Line branding on the 724 any more.

As I’ve said more than once in my comments, it’s not about the Greenline network - that’s long gone. It’s the brand, which was a decent well known brand, and people referred to the 724 as ‘the green line’. It was a waste to get rid of that brand, from a marketing point of view

 

[duncombec]

I think the point being made regarding the 724 is fairly clear: it's not that it must retain the Green Line branding because that's what it's had for years, or that it needs super high-spec vehicles, just that it is a service that Arriva could make something of if they tried (or perhaps desired to try), rather than the rather insipid attempts at branding used with the journeymark livery.

Ultimately, it's about whether you want a bus service that says "lookie here, I'm worth using" - be that branded Green Line, Arriva Express, Traws Herts, Eight Towns Explorer or Airport By Bus - or one that suffers "death by journey-specific profit margins". If the budget pot can allow for a few purple vinyls advertising WiFi, why could it not splash to some bigger vinyls on some different panels? It doesn't have to be a Best Impressions extraordinaire to achieve the "there's something different about this bus" factor.

 

[A0]

I think the point being made regarding the 724 is fairly clear: it's not that it must retain the Green Line branding because that's what it's had for years, or that it needs super high-spec vehicles, just that it is a service that Arriva could make something of if they tried (or perhaps desired to try), rather than the rather insipid attempts at branding used with the journeymark livery.

Ultimately, it's about whether you want a bus service that says "lookie here, I'm worth using" - be that branded Green Line, Arriva Express, Traws Herts, Eight Towns Explorer or Airport By Bus - or one that suffers "death by journey-specific profit margins". If the budget pot can allow for a few purple vinyls advertising WiFi, why could it not splash to some bigger vinyls on some different panels? It doesn't have to be a Best Impressions extraordinaire to achieve the "there's something different about this bus" factor.

The problem is when you have a "dedicated" branded fleet it firstly limits the ability to use those vehicles elsewhere and secondly when the inevitable substitute happens customers don't recognise "their bus" - because they've got used to a bus of a certain colour turning up.

As I’ve said more than once in my comments, it’s not about the Greenline network - that’s long gone. It’s the brand, which was a decent well known brand, and people referred to the 724 as ‘the green line’. It was a waste to get rid of that brand, from a marketing point of view

It's only worth having a brand IF it has a value or USP which leads to people using it as any marketeer will tell you. And that's not the case here because most people would just board the 310, 301, 302 or 321 depending on which bit of the route it was.

 

[Llandudno]

The problem is when you have a "dedicated" branded fleet it firstly limits the ability to use those vehicles elsewhere and secondly when the inevitable substitute happens customers don't recognise "their bus" - because they've got used to a bus of a certain colour turning up.

Transdev, Nottingham City Transport and TrentBarton seem to manage putting the correct branded buses on the right routes more often than not…

It's only worth having a brand IF it has a value or USP which leads to people using it as any marketeer will tell you. And that's not the case here because most people would just board the 310, 301, 302 or 321 depending on which bit of the route it was.

 

[cnjb8]

Transdev, Nottingham City Transport and TrentBarton seem to manage putting the correct branded buses on the right routes more often than not…

That's because they are strict with branded buses being allocated to the correct route, and have a decent amount of buses in a spare livery to cover for branded buses. Arriva seem to lack this

 

[markymark2000]

or one that suffers "death by journey-specific profit margins"

Is that genuienely the case? Always led to believe itt was but didn't know if it was confirmed.

I was told it was down to revenue taken on each trip and so returns and their own day weekly (etc) passes aren't included. (Multi operator passes and such like I am unsure as they pay per ticket accepted.
All this is hence why Arriva tend not to run evenings because demand is one way and would mean a dead or loss making trip inbound to cover the busy trips back or its people making use of existing tickets

 

[Man of Kent]

The fact that buses that were previously in Sapphire livery are being painted into standard livery confirms that.
What used to be a novelty on Sapphire buses (USB, wi-fi etc) is now standard spec so the brand is rather redundant.

Sapphire was also touted as offering a better standard of seating with more leg space, plus next stop announcements, that are still not standard features. I seem to recall originally there was also extra staff training, and possibly even a money back guarantee of some kind. And by referring to the Arriva website, I had forgotten that originally Sapphire was supposed to denote "a punctual, reliable, frequent and direct service". So a bit more than just USB and wifi.

​

 

[Andy Pacer]

Sapphire was also touted as offering a better standard of seating with more leg space, plus next stop announcements, that are still not standard features. I seem to recall originally there was also extra staff training, and possibly even a money back guarantee of some kind. And by referring to the Arriva website, I had forgotten that originally Sapphire was supposed to denote "a punctual, reliable, frequent and direct service". So a bit more than just USB and wifi.

​

Were there any routes other than the Chester to Wrexham service that had more leg room?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Were there any routes other than the Chester to Wrexham service that had more leg room?

Think the new Pulsars for the 7 Darlington to Durham were slightly lower capacity but I think that was it. I don't know how/if leg room was ever really marketed.

 

[Simon75]

As I’ve said more than once in my comments, it’s not about the Greenline network - that’s long gone. It’s the brand, which was a decent well known brand, and people referred to the 724 as ‘the green line’. It was a waste to get rid of that brand, from a marketing point of view

Reading buses seem to do well with branding for the Greenline 702/703, even though its used under licence from Arriva.

Arriva were going to introduce a new Greenline (725 ??) From London to Stansted, but then Covid stopped it being launched (although not sure where the buses were being garaged?)

 

[cnjb8]

Reading buses seem to do well with branding for the Greenline 702/703, even though its used under licence from Arriva.

Arriva were going to introduce a new Greenline (725 ??) From London to Stansted, but then Covid stopped it being launched (although not sure where the buses were being garaged?)

They were going to open an outstation at Stansted but that was shelved too