Arriva Rail North DOO

[driver_m]

I wouldn't, but a train[1] is more similar to a bus than to a plane, so I don't agree with your rejection of the comparison.

The key differences are:
- Two pilots rather than one because a plane can't just whack the brakes on if the pilot goes unconscious
- Evacuation has to be completed in the event of a crash within minutes otherwise everybody dies (this is where the small plane differs as it's more like a car in terms of getting out)

Neither of those are true of a train. If the driver, as the only member of staff, goes unconscious, the train automatically stops and everyone is safe remaining on board until evacuated. (It's no fun, but they are safe). And regarding evacuation, in almost no case on the railway does this need to be rushed - almost always it is *less* safe.

They simply are not comparable.

[1] OK, not a 12 car London commuter train, but a Class 153 has a similar capacity to a large coach or double decker bus, and in London the same number of doors, too.

Slight flaw in your bus comparison seeing it can't derail and therefore doesn't need to put down emergency protection. Keep attempting, I'll keep laughing off your bus comparison. Plus, I'm not going to insult anyone's intelligence about brakes and stuff, my comparison .was more to do with the behaviour of people in the cabin of both train and plane. Imagine a DOO inter city service on a football day with no staff, they're bad enough WITH staff, imagine the carnage without any. Then imagine a Ryanair going to Prague for instance with stag and hen do's on board and pilots only. I'll leave that lovely thought with you all.

 

[driver_m]

Given Wingly has taken off (excuse the pun) it suggests the public have no issue with pilot only aircraft on very small aircraft.

Don't worry the train drivers will have plenty of time to do the guards duties when automated trains are introduced and they will only have to step in and drive the train in an emergency.

We will both be worm food by the time that comes round to Knutsford.

 

[CN75]

So where do you draw the line? What % of Northern passengers on a daily basis require a ramp to assist them on and off the train ?

The Equality Act requires reasonable adjustments. It would be up to Northern to have data to show what was reasonable and justified their decision on a case by case basis.

Slight flaw in your bus comparison seeing it can't derail and therefore doesn't need to put down emergency protection. Keep attempting, I'll keep laughing off your bus comparison. Plus, I'm not going to insult anyone's intelligence about brakes and stuff, my comparison .was more to do with the behaviour of people in the cabin of both train and plane. Imagine a DOO inter city service on a football day with no staff, they're bad enough WITH staff, imagine the carnage without any. Then imagine a Ryanair going to Prague for instance with stag and hen do's on board and pilots only. I'll leave that lovely thought with you all.

Happens every day on 12 car trains in the South East.

 

[driver_m]

Northern attempt to negotiate DOO(P) on specific routes with the new stock. ASLEF decline any extension of DOO(P). Northern sends ASLEF drivers for DOO(P) training as it can send drivers on any training it wants to. Drivers ask their union if they should go, ASLEF tell them to attend the training as to not go would be illegal unofficial action. At the same time ASLEF call a dispute over extending DOO against existing agreements. The ballot has a huge majority for action. Northern takes ASLEF to court, but fails to invalidate the result. The DOO(P) training and all the planning for DOO however continues. ASLEF members have an overtime ban. Northern responds by cutting the timetable. ASLEF hold strikes. Northern gets government support to face them off. It all gets political, but the Conservatives are in government and bankroll Northern. The press plays up to the nationalist trends of a war against dinosaur unions holding the country to ransom. The Labour Party pressure the government who dig in even further. However, Brexit dominates the news.

Some younger ASLEF members start to realise they are losing a lot of money and can’t keep it up. ASLEF’s leadership realises that there could be a disastrous breakdown in union discipline and suspends the strikes. A negotiation process with Northern starts on a resolution. The process drags on for months. The DOO(P) training is completed for all affected drivers, the stations are ready and the new trains and their routes are set. Northern driver managers start driving some of the new trains DOO(P) on the routes. ASLEF accept that their agreements and contracts can be amended by the employer if negotiation has been attempted. The risk of striking indefinitely to ASLEF is realised and the battle changes to getting the best for their members. They write to drivers with a deal which looks great because of the pay rise and other strings attached to it but contains some DOO(P), and recommend it because the alternative is Northern executing their threat to give drivers 12 weeks notice of contract change. The ballot is tight but the deal is accepted. The RMT claim ASLEF sold them out.

Just by taking driver managers away from their job, you then get drivers losing competency on routes, traction, rules,medicals etc. It works both ways. Plus, this part of the world isnt as beholden to the Mail and the Sun. Especially on Merseyside where people will do the opposite of what 'the sun says' as there is big public support for keeping the guards up here. Your points make the assumption that Arriva are totally on top of their game and the local politicians will support them, Andy Burnham is the key politician to this and he won't blindly support Arriva. There's as likely a chance that Arriva will cave in.

 

[driver_m]

The Equality Act requires reasonable adjustments. It would be up to Northern to have data to show what was reasonable and justified their decision on a case by case basis.


Happens every day on 12 car trains in the South East.

We've thankfully not had a major incident with a 12 car yet. We also have 12 cars that dont run DOO (LNWR) which seem to feature a lot less in the news than Southern, Thameslink etc. Why could that be?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And what about the driver?

Passenger assistance. Given that rail staff are not mandatory First Aid trained (something I personally believe to be scandalous), it is highly likely that a passenger will be in a far better position to assist than a guard.

Is it the case that a deadman operation on a DOO train will automatically make an emergency CSR call, requesting assistance? If not, why not?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Imagine a DOO inter city service on a football day with no staff, they're bad enough WITH staff, imagine the carnage without any

That's precisely the kind of service where the guard hides in the back cab to ensure his safety.

 

[bahnause]

Passenger assistance. Given that rail staff are not mandatory First Aid trained (something I personally believe to be scandalous), it is highly likely that a passenger will be in a far better position to assist than a guard.

In the time a passanger gets to the driver for first aid, the only tool he will need is a shovel... (Yes, it happened)

Is it the case that a deadman operation on a DOO train will automatically make an emergency CSR call, requesting assistance? If not, why not?

Why wasn't the PTI improved for DOO? Why does DOO still needs staff (=the driver) to check the doors? Why do the doors not provide enough protection from someone being dragged along the platform?

Because the system isn't ready for DOO. DOO is possible, but someone has to do the homework first. I experienced the introduction of DOO in switzerland, and it wasn't as simple as some might imagine. Some major drawbacks are still hunting us after years.

 

[Moonshot]

In the time a passanger gets to the driver for first aid, the only tool he will need is a shovel... (Yes, it happened)

Why wasn't the PTI improved for DOO? Why does DOO still needs staff (=the driver) to check the doors? Why do the doors not provide enough protection from someone being dragged along the platform?

Because the system isn't ready for DOO. DOO is possible, but someone has to do the homework first. I experienced the introduction of DOO in switzerland, and it wasn't as simple as some might imagine. Some major drawbacks are still hunting us after years.

The drawbacks being?

 

[bahnause]

The drawbacks being?

SPADs due to the distraction of the driver when despatching the train, no second pair of eyes to check the signal aspect. Big investments in safety systems had to be made and new procedures had to be introduced. And in our case, the driver doesn't even has to check every door.

 

[Dave1987]

Don't worry the train drivers will have plenty of time to do the guards duties when automated trains are introduced and they will only have to step in and drive the train in an emergency.

Give me a bell when that actually happens but until then..... yawn......

 

[Robertj21a]

Slight flaw in your bus comparison seeing it can't derail and therefore doesn't need to put down emergency protection. Keep attempting, I'll keep laughing off your bus comparison. Plus, I'm not going to insult anyone's intelligence about brakes and stuff, my comparison .was more to do with the behaviour of people in the cabin of both train and plane. Imagine a DOO inter city service on a football day with no staff, they're bad enough WITH staff, imagine the carnage without any. Then imagine a Ryanair going to Prague for instance with stag and hen do's on board and pilots only. I'll leave that lovely thought with you all.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding but, to me, a bus is quite a good comparison - possibly about 70-80 people on board, with just a driver. Most bus services have been DOO for decades and I don't recall much in the way of the problems that you seem to be suggesting.
If you can run 12 coach trains through the centre of London with just a driver then it's difficult to see what the problem is elsewhere (provided that appropriate equipment is in place).

 

[Dave1987]

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding but, to me, a bus is quite a good comparison - possibly about 70-80 people on board, with just a driver. Most bus services have been DOO for decades and I don't recall much in the way of the problems that you seem to be suggesting.
If you can run 12 coach trains through the centre of London with just a driver then it's difficult to see what the problem is elsewhere (provided that appropriate equipment is in place).

Are you really comparing a train in the centre of London to one out in the middle of nowhere? Dear oh dear we do have some uninformed opinions on here!

 

[Robertj21a]

Are you really comparing a train in the centre of London to one out in the middle of nowhere? Dear oh dear we do have some uninformed opinions on here!

Yes. If the appropriate equipment is in place then it really is quite difficult to see what the difference is (other than, on average, the London trains will usually be even busier). What do you see as the big problem ?

 

[Moonshot]

SPADs due to the distraction of the driver when despatching the train, no second pair of eyes to check the signal aspect. Big investments in safety systems had to be made and new procedures had to be introduced. And in our case, the driver doesn't even has to check every door.

Are SPADS common in the UK on lines that already run DOO? No they are not. And a guard checking the signal aspect can sometimes get it wrong. UK already has the safest railway in the world.

 

[bahnause]

Are SPADS common in the UK on lines that already run DOO? No they are not

Have I used the word "common"?

https://www.rssb.co.uk/Pages/research-catalogue/PB009807.aspx

The data has also shown a slightly higher risk of SPAD with the dispatch of driver-only trains from unstaffed platforms. This might be indicative of the higher levels of mental workload that drivers experience as a result of having to carry out all dispatch-related actions and safety checks in addition to driving the train under such circumstances.

 

[northwichcat]

Give me a bell when that actually happens but until then..... yawn......

It was a sarcastic port (as indicated by an emoji) in response to what can only be described as a sarcastic post, despite not having an emoji.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are SPADS common in the UK on lines that already run DOO? No they are not. And a guard checking the signal aspect can sometimes get it wrong. UK already has the safest railway in the world.

And - I'm going to be controversial here - the disparity between this and road safety suggests to me that there would actually be an overall reduction in KSI (killed/seriously injured) stats on transport generally if the entire network was made DOO and the money saved spent on road safety and on reducing fares to get people out of cars.

The railway is very safe, yes, and that's great - but we really are reaching diminishing returns now.

 

[Moonshot]

Have I used the word "common"?

https://www.rssb.co.uk/Pages/research-catalogue/PB009807.aspx

And how are SPADS mitigated in the UK?

 

[Moonshot]

And - I'm going to be controversial here - the disparity between this and road safety suggests to me that there would actually be an overall reduction in KSI (killed/seriously injured) stats on transport generally if the entire network was made DOO and the money saved spent on road safety and on reducing fares to get people out of cars.

The railway is very safe, yes, and that's great - but we really are reaching diminishing returns now.

We are indeed. So if DOO was inherently unsafe, then no driver would actually take a train out under those conditions.

 

[bahnause]

We are indeed. So if DOO was inherently unsafe, then no driver would actually take a train out under those conditions.

No they wouldn't. But no one said its inherently unsafe except you. But there is a higher risk.

 

[driver_m]

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding but, to me, a bus is quite a good comparison - possibly about 70-80 people on board, with just a driver. Most bus services have been DOO for decades and I don't recall much in the way of the problems that you seem to be suggesting.
If you can run 12 coach trains through the centre of London with just a driver then it's difficult to see what the problem is elsewhere (provided that appropriate equipment is in place).

Why were clippies on board? Revenue perchance? If so they were the equivalent of an rpi. Not a guard.

 

[driver_m]

We are indeed. So if DOO was inherently unsafe, then no driver would actually take a train out under those conditions.

I remember a driver doing exactly that during the southern debacle over the introduction of 12 car DOO. So drivers did and do think that it is unsafe. If I had my way I would immediately stop 12 car DOO as it's only a matter of time before a major incident happens on one IMO, but seeing as the subject is Northern then that's for another thread.

 

[AndyHA]

Why were clippies on board? Revenue perchance? If so they were the equivalent of an rpi. Not a guard.

What I do not understand is , if the alleged “safety” card is now being played in these disputes by the RMT .

Why was it never mentioned when that union agreed to firstly DOO on the St Pancras to Bedford line back in the 1980s . And subsequent DOO routes since .

On my local Abellio Greater Anglia Trains , it’s DOO on the 8 or 12 Car Stansted Express workings , often where non English speakers out number people who speak the mother tonge .

 

[bahnause]

If I had my way I would immediately stop 12 car DOO as it's only a matter of time before a major incident happens on one IMO, but seeing as the subject is Northern then that's for another thread.

You don't need a 12 car train for this to happen. We had a trap and drag on a 100m train in 2016.

 

[Moonshot]

You don't need a 12 car train for this to happen. We had a trap and drag on a 100m train in 2016.

There have also been trap and drag incidents on trains with guards.

There is no such beast as a 100% safe risk free environment. Time and time again I see people post about incidents which are so rare and then try to big them up as if it was very common.

 

[driver_m]

What I do not understand is , if the alleged “safety” card is now being played in these disputes by the RMT .

Why was it never mentioned when that union agreed to firstly DOO on the St Pancras to Bedford line back in the 1980s . And subsequent DOO routes since .

On my local Abellio Greater Anglia Trains , it’s DOO on the 8 or 12 Car Stansted Express workings , often where non English speakers out number people who speak the mother tonge .

No idea. I was a kid back then doing kid things. Secondly I'm not in the RMT so I can't speak for their actions back then .I presume it's because they weren't the RMT back then. All I can say is that people want drivers to be at 100% performance all the time 24/7 and for that we are well paid, yet now you increasingly want to distract us even more than we already face, with what's going on behind us when there are people quite capable of doing that, my line has proven it many times over that having a safety trained guard saves lives .

 

[driver_m]

There have also been trap and drag incidents on trains with guards.

There is no such beast as a 100% safe risk free environment. Time and time again I see people post about incidents which are so rare and then try to big them up as if it was very common.

You're a guard arent you? Why are you trying to effectively downgrade or sack yourself?

Other things are rare too, but we try and protect ourselves against them. Should we mention them while we're at it?

 

[Moonshot]

You're a guard arent you? Why are you trying to effectively downgrade or sack yourself?

Other things are rare too, but we try and protect ourselves against them. Should we mention them while we're at it?

Im simply taking the objective view. Whether I like it or not, our role is changing and becoming far more customer focused.

 

[Moonshot]

No idea. I was a kid back then doing kid things. Secondly I'm not in the RMT so I can't speak for their actions back then .I presume it's because they weren't the RMT back then. All I can say is that people want drivers to be at 100% performance all the time 24/7 and for that we are well paid, yet now you increasingly want to distract us even more than we already face, with what's going on behind us when there are people quite capable of doing that, my line has proven it many times over that having a safety trained guard saves lives .

Absolute tosh.....because if that was right, then ASLEF would never have accepted DOO.