Arriva Rail North DOO

[Gareth Marston]

Excellent point was made on the wnxx forum the other day. You can't have DOO in Absolute block areas. So have a guess at what services are unable to use it......... (On the west side, it's rather a lot) But for a kickstart, absolutely nothing through Stockport.

Don't suppose DafT realise this then!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it had been DOO then there wouldn't have been any 'confrontation' if the matter arose from any revenue issue !

It did occur to me that if the person concerned was a regular nuisance (as it turns out he might have been) it might actually have been better that he walked past the TVM 9 times out of 10, but on the 10th he was met with a revenue squad and prosecution.

While I certainly couldn't criticise the traincrew for the way they acted in any way, it did occur to me that a lone guard wasn't really a whole lot of use in terms of protecting passengers from any attack had he decided to go for passengers - once he himself had been attacked he (quite rightly) protected himself by shutting himself in the cab pending Police arrival. Though TBH I was actually quite surprised the errant passenger, once he'd realised that was going to happen, didn't use the egress.

 

[driver_m]

Don't suppose DafT realise this then!

Probably not, but wouldn't be surprised if this rule got very quickly altered!

 

[Moonshot]

Excellent point was made on the wnxx forum the other day. You can't have DOO in Absolute block areas. So have a guess at what services are unable to use it......... (On the west side, it's rather a lot) But for a kickstart, absolutely nothing through Stockport.

Northern drivers already drive trains DOO through absolute block areas, it just so happens they are ECS moves. But in any event, as things progress, absolute block will slowly disappear.

 

[scrapy]

Excellent point was made on the wnxx forum the other day. You can't have DOO in Absolute block areas. So have a guess at what services are unable to use it......... (On the west side, it's rather a lot) But for a kickstart, absolutely nothing through Stockport.

Since GSMR came in I don't think that's the case now. In fact Northern told the RMT last year that every line is capable of being driver operated except for the Cumbrian coast and the Whitby line.

 

[Robertj21a]

Should me make train travel free in rural areas then?

I don't see why, I thought the idea was to have better controls at stations ?. Presumably, random revenue checks would continue. It's quite probable that the staff so employed could be more suited than some guards for that particular role.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see why, I thought the idea was to have better controls at stations ?. Presumably, random revenue checks would continue. It's quite probable that the staff so employed could be more suited than some guards for that particular role.

FWIW I'm not saying it is a genuine argument for rural DOO (there are plenty of things that could happen on a line like that where a guard would be invaluable)...it was just a thought I had.

 

[Moonshot]

FWIW I'm not saying it is a genuine argument for rural DOO (there are plenty of things that could happen on a line like that where a guard would be invaluable)...it was just a thought I had.

Surely that should be a commercial decision for Northern to make and not the DFT? There is some significant mileage of Northern trains out in the sticks miles away from anywhere.

 

[driver_m]

Northern drivers already drive trains DOO through absolute block areas, it just so happens they are ECS moves. But in any event, as things progress, absolute block will slowly disappear.

That's not DOO-P though is it? I drive through AB with ECS. Given how you can't rely on GSM-R to connect you to the correct box even in TCB areas. I.e. getting Slough on the WCML when near Wembley and to say AB will disappear is optimistic at best. Frodsham is still an AB box and it's just been linked to the ROC at Manchester.

 

[Moonshot]

That's not DOO-P though is it? I drive through AB with ECS. Given how you can't rely on GSM-R to connect you to the correct box even in TCB areas. I.e. getting Slough on the WCML when near Wembley and to say AB will disappear is optimistic at best. Frodsham is still an AB box and it's just been linked to the ROC at Manchester.

Not optimistic at all, the overall plan from Network Rail is to have all signalling controlled from ROCs. Boxes in Northern land have been closing down on a regular basis. Clearly we are still some years away from that. Absolute block restricts capacity, and its in everyones interest to quash it and move on.

 

[Bromley boy]

Not optimistic at all, the overall plan from Network Rail is to have all signalling controlled from ROCs. Boxes in Northern land have been closing down on a regular basis. Clearly we are still some years away from that. Absolute block restricts capacity, and its in everyones interest to quash it and move on.

If you had typed “still some decades” I would agree with you.

 

[Dave1987]

Not optimistic at all, the overall plan from Network Rail is to have all signalling controlled from ROCs. Boxes in Northern land have been closing down on a regular basis. Clearly we are still some years away from that. Absolute block restricts capacity, and its in everyones interest to quash it and move on.

Hmmmm you seem to forget the amount of boxes that were supposed to have closed years ago and transferred to ROC's but are still not even at risk. I know of several absolute block areas where its not even on the horizon to resignal it. I agree with @Bromley boy if you had said decades I would have agreed.

 

[driver_m]

Not optimistic at all, the overall plan from Network Rail is to have all signalling controlled from ROCs. Boxes in Northern land have been closing down on a regular basis. Clearly we are still some years away from that. Absolute block restricts capacity, and its in everyones interest to quash it and move on.

You've clearly never worked on that side then, and clearly believe that all NRs big plans and schemes are not "fantasy island' schemes that never come to fruition. They couldn't even get rid of St Helens Station box at the same time as Huyton. Ditton and Edge Hill are still in use despite big renewal projects meant to be removing them.. The rest of the North Wales boxes were meant to be going imminently. They're still there.........

 

[Moonshot]

You've clearly never worked on that side then, and clearly believe that all NRs big plans and schemes are not "fantasy island' schemes that never come to fruition. They couldn't even get rid of St Helens Station box at the same time as Huyton. Ditton and Edge Hill are still in use despite big renewal projects meant to be removing them.. The rest of the North Wales boxes were meant to be going imminently. They're still there.........

So what.....they will close eventually. So according to you, DOO cannot operate in absolute block areas, and we are some way off from completely abolishing that......so why should guards have to worry if its light years away?

 

[Eccles1983]

Nonsense again.

Have a good look at slade lane, the previous attempt to get rid of the boxes, the ultimate failure of said scheme as it's a) very complicated and b) astronomically expensive.


Definately an eastern guard. No doubt about it.

 

[Tomnick]

On a pedantic point, I thought it was the lack of continuous train detection that was the problem, not Absolute Block as a method of working. On that basis, Stockport would be okay in that respect at least. I can’t agree for a minute that it’d be acceptable on lines without continuous train detection either!

 

[driver_m]

On a pedantic point, I thought it was the lack of continuous train detection that was the problem, not Absolute Block as a method of working. On that basis, Stockport would be okay in that respect at least. I can’t agree for a minute that it’d be acceptable on lines without continuous train detection either!

Stockport if anything, would be worse, because of the very high chance of the GSM going to the wrong box, which could be critical in an emergency situation. Even where boxes are a distance apart, say Beeston Castle, pressing the GSM will invariably connect you to Chester PSB, and I dare say this is common across the country. Just look at the number of signals now with number plates to contact the box because pressing 'SG' doesn't work there. (Pressing SG alerts the box to your presence at a signal when you've stopped at it)

 

[Tomnick]

Stockport if anything, would be worse, because of the very high chance of the GSM going to the wrong box, which could be critical in an emergency situation. Even where boxes are a distance apart, say Beeston Castle, pressing the GSM will invariably connect you to Chester PSB, and I dare say this is common across the country. Just look at the number of signals now with number plates to contact the box because pressing 'SG' doesn't work there. (Pressing SG alerts the box to your presence at a signal when you've stopped at it)

It certainly highlights the fallibility of GSM-R, which is what all the hopes of DOO(P) on proper rural Absolute Block lines are being pinned upon! That’s assuming that it still works after the impact...

In that respect, still, though, Stockport shouldn’t be any worse than a TCB line. The train describer *should* ensure that calls are routed correctly, and the signalman will almost certainly see what’s occurred in an emergency anyway. It doesn’t mean that DOO is right, of course, just that those aren’t the most convincing grounds to oppose it!

 

[Bromley boy]

Stockport if anything, would be worse, because of the very high chance of the GSM going to the wrong box, which could be critical in an emergency situation. Even where boxes are a distance apart, sat Beeston Castle, pressing the GSM will invariably connect you to Chester PSB, and I dare say this is common across the country.

Indeed.

There’s nothing like trying to bell Charing + workstation at TBROC only to end up talking to Wimbledon box.

It’s easier just to use the SPT tbh.

 

[LowLevel]

Trying to use it at Liverpool South Parkway during the blockade was quite good. Hunts Cross, Ditton, even Edge Hill but never Allerton Junction

 

[driver_m]

Trying to use it at Liverpool South Parkway during the blockade was quite good. Hunts Cross, Ditton, even Edge Hill but never Allerton Junction

Same with Speke. Always get the others you mentioned! That's why they have plates now .

 

[Moonshot]

Moonshot is a turkey who is very much in favour of Xmas - I wouldn’t waste my time arguing with him/her.

He/she is apparently retiring in the not to distant future so couldn’t give two toots about anyone else apart from themselves.

Substitute turkey for realist and then you will get it.

Will DOO be introduced on Northern?

Yes.

Will guards still be around for some considerable time?

Yes

Will a second ballot be a good idea ?

Yes

So your opinion is totally irrelevant. The reality is that guards are losing money , some of whom can ill afford to do that. Guards are also still being taken on by Northern. Some of those who originally voted have now either gone driving, or have left the business.

 

[northernchris]

Some of those who originally voted have now either gone driving, or have left the business.

That's quite an important fact as there could be a sizeable percentage of guards who are striking but who haven't had a chance for a vote. If there was a strong feeling for strike action then a second ballot should be no problem for the RMT, and could potentially give them a stronger result. The law was wrong in the first place to allow one ballot to be valid indefinitely though, and whilst we should respect the right for industrial action I think those who join the company after a ballot has been held should be entitled to their own vote

 

[Killingworth]

That's quite an important fact as there could be a sizeable percentage of guards who are striking but who haven't had a chance for a vote. If there was a strong feeling for strike action then a second ballot should be no problem for the RMT, and could potentially give them a stronger result. The law was wrong in the first place to allow one ballot to be valid indefinitely though, and whilst we should respect the right for industrial action I think those who join the company after a ballot has been held should be entitled to their own vote

Both sides might be reluctant to have a new ballot. We don't know what local, national or unconnected issues might come up to distort the result either way.

 

[Moonshot]

Both sides might be reluctant to have a new ballot. We don't know what local, national or unconnected issues might come up to distort the result either way.

Its a very simple yes/no vote. A second ballot will either return continued strike action, or an end to the strikes. It really is that simple.

Strikes are costing guards money and making life difficult for passengers.

 

[scrapy]

Its a very simple yes/no vote. A second ballot will either return continued strike action, or an end to the strikes. It really is that simple.

Strikes are costing guards money and making life difficult for passengers.

Surely if the majority of people didn't want to strike they'd just turn up for work on a strike day and be backed by their colleagues?

 

[Moonshot]

Surely if the majority of people didn't want to strike they'd just turn up for work on a strike day and be backed by their colleagues?

Possibly, and you may well see that if this continues. Its what brought an end to the miners strike years ago. But right now a second ballot would be sensible as no one has anything to lose.

 

[Killingworth]

Its a very simple yes/no vote. A second ballot will either return continued strike action, or an end to the strikes. It really is that simple.

Strikes are costing guards money and making life difficult for passengers.

As a former trades union national committee member, not rail related, I've seen this sort of situation. A lot is bluff and counter bluff. In some ways it is simple, but it's not.

The union won't want another ballot in case it gives a majority to return to normal working. Neither does it want to see a weakening of the previous vote. On the other hand the employer is aware that a new vote might actually result in a stonger vote for continued action, and one validated by being up to date.

In some areas there will be strongly held pockets in favour of abandoning strikes. They may be counterbalanced, maybe overwhelmingly, by bigger groups eleswhere strongly in favour of carrying on. It just needs one manager somewhere to make a rash decision to unite the feelings of waverers in favour of striking. Of course a rash union action can send it the other way. Anything can happen in the time from declaring a new ballot to the date it is completed

I recall a long running dispute, banning overtime and working to rule. We tried to inconvenience customers as little as possible, and mostly did - except in a few highly militant areas. The union won, probably on the backs of those militants in a very few places. A few years later my job had been slowly deskilled, I was offered early retirement and my successor was paid less than 2/3 my salary. The job no longer exists - but we won! Or did we?

I'd love to get back into the details of the dispute, but at present both sides are losing.

Ultimately passengers are the ones justifying the jobs. Hack them off enough and they'll find other ways to travel, or stop travelling. Do we really need railways at all?

 

[JamesT]

Surely if the majority of people didn't want to strike they'd just turn up for work on a strike day and be backed by their colleagues?

Given some of the previous comments in this forum about the opprobrium those viewed as breaking a strike suffer, I think staff would have to be very sure they had a overwhelming majority before turning up for work on a strike day. Far safer to wait for an official end to the strike.

 

[PR1Berske]

Do we really need railways at all?

If this thread has got to this point we really are in trouble!!