Aslef strikes and OT ban called…

[Kernow_Celtic]

To those that think train drivers should accept changes to terms and conditions, I can pretty much guarantee you have never been a train driver. The job is knackering as it is, if the Government got its way there would be dangerous issues with fatigue and potentially serious safety consequences. The TOCs realise this, hence why they stay quiet on the subject.



As others have pointed out, every other sector has beaten the Government eventually, no reason to think train drivers will be any different.

 

[harz99]

As a general rule of thumb Hidden is no more than:-

12 hours per day
12 hours rest between booking off & booking on again
No more than 72 hours worked in any 7 day period
No more than 13 consecutive days worked

Thanks for that, i couldn't remember the exact detail, it's a very long time since i was in Employee Relations.

Suffice to say then, that if you're required to take a day off after every 13 consecutive days of duty, you can't work every available rest day in a roster.

 

[whoosh]

The bit I find baffling is that it all seems so digital. How about members asking ASLEF to explore options with employers to find what is possible to end the strike? Or do we just go on like this for another year?

The individual employers have been ordered not to negotiate pay.
It's all going through the Rail Delivery Group. This is the organisation that stated, "We are doing everything we can to resolve this dispute," whilst waiting a whole month from making RMT an offer in December '22, and making ASLEF their first offer at the end of Jan '23, during which time there were ASLEF strikes. Pretty much an identical offer to the RMT offer.

Obviously the intent was to have ASLEF on strike. Otherwise, what were they doing for the month? What were they doing for the whole year beforehand (as there had been no talks with ASLEF despite them asking)?


ASLEF have already done as you've suggested, and put forward that talks for the second year go to individual TOCs for negotiation. This has now been done for the RMT, so there is no reason it can't be for ASLEF.

Unless the Government want to prove to the country that's it's awesome by actually putting it's Minimum Service Bill into action.

As well as affecting Rail Staff, the Minimum Service Bill actually affects Teachers, Bus Drivers, Firefighters, Hospital Staff, and Paramedics as well. Maybe Lorry Drivers. Maybe other groups like Supermarket Workers can be classed as essential. It's the thin end of a wedge.

But whipped up into a state of outrage by the media, train drivers are the ideal target to get everyone to think that this bill is great news.

The Government will make trains run on an ASLEF strike day. That is the intent.

 

[bwlv9]

I‘m not bitter about it at all (I don’t do bitter)

Your posts throughout this dispute suggest otherwise.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Is the Rail Delivery Group owned/run by its members or by Government quangos? You would think, if the former, this dispute would have been solved ages ago

 

[Stephen42]

Is the Rail Delivery Group owned/run by its members or by Government quangos? You would think, if the former, this dispute would have been solved ages ago

It doesn't matter who runs it, neither would have a blank cheque to sign off on additional spending. They'd need to either reach a deal that is cost neutral or have agreement for the level of additional spending.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It doesn't matter who runs it, neither would have a blank cheque to sign off on additional spending. They'd need to either reach a deal that is cost neutral or have agreement for the level of additional spending.

I thought the RDG was made up of the former association of train operating companies (ATOC) and Network Rail...? If that were the case, you'd think they would have their members' interests at heart and stand up to the paymasters (DfT) ...? It would seem not

 

[Krokodil]

The bit I find baffling is that it all seems so digital. How about members asking ASLEF to explore options with employers to find what is possible to end the strike? Or do we just go on like this for another year?

There are no options. The employers can't so much as fart without permission from the DfT.

Thanks for that, i couldn't remember the exact detail, it's a very long time since i was in Employee Relations.

Suffice to say then, that if you're required to take a day off after every 13 consecutive days of duty, you can't work every available rest day in a roster.

No, but you could work up to 26 days out of the 28 in a pay period - so 10 rest days or Sundays, minus however many fall within the nine day overtime ban. You don't even need to work that many, how many strike days are there in a given month? For a third of strike days on average you would have been off work anyway so won't be losing pay. Most companies pay an enhanced rate for rest day so if you are on strike for one day and do one RDW shift you have gained more than you have lost.

Is the Rail Delivery Group owned/run by its members or by Government quangos? You would think, if the former, this dispute would have been solved ages ago

It's effectively a government mouthpiece.

 

[Stephen42]

I thought the RDG was made up of the former association of train operating companies (ATOC) and Network Rail...? If that were the case, you'd think they would have their members' interests at heart and stand up to the paymasters (DfT) ...? It would seem not

Yes, but the train companies are paid based on their performance which includes how well they raise revenue and reduce cost. Pay rises are now more likely to be assessed over longer terms compared to the franchised era. While they can make the case for pay increases and the high upfront cost of not settling, settling early leads to the same predicament once the deals expire and most of the arguments in high percentage deals in other industries aren't as applicable here.

 

[RHolmes]

a question with no ulterior motive, if a driver/T/M stops his train because he's run out of hours how then does he get back home? or does his job take this into account ie if due to a tech. fault or weather?

They’re provided with a taxi to their home depot. In some extreme cases this may be to their home address (if they rely on public transport which is no longer running) or hotel accommodation and board

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Yes, but the train companies are paid based on their performance which includes how well they raise revenue and reduce cost. Pay rises are now more likely to be assessed over longer terms compared to the franchised era. While they can make the case for pay increases and the high upfront cost of not settling, settling early leads to the same predicament once the deals expire and most of the arguments in high percentage deals in other industries aren't as applicable here.

I guess a separate thread is required here but if the train companies are not performing well and their payments are reduced (i.e. payment by results), then isn't there less money in the system to pay its staff over the contracted rate?

 

[kw12]

ASLEF have already done as you've suggested, and put forward that talks for the second year go to individual TOCs for negotiation. This has now been done for the RMT, so there is no reason it can't be for ASLEF.

The RMT resumed its talks with RDG around three months ago, leading to the revised offer that RMT members accepted last week.

Friday's press release by ASLEF states that "we haven't heard from the employers, the private sector companies for whom we work, since April". It makes no mention of seeking any talks with RDG since April.

This suggests therefore that either ASLEF's press release was incorrect or it has not yet held (or even sought) any talks with RDG to request an approach similar to that accepted by RMT.

 

[Facing Back]

I guess a separate thread is required here but if the train companies are not performing well and their payments are reduced (i.e. payment by results), then isn't there less money in the system to pay its staff over the contracted rate?

Unless things have moved on, the TOC's contracts currently provide for a guaranteed revenue which covers basic costs including payroll. There are a few percent available on top of this as performance bonuses and some penalties which may (I really can't recall this properly) require the parent to dip into their pockets. This will all presumably change if there is a move back to a more normal franchise model?

 

[6Gman]

It‘s about reality. Many, many people - including many on the railway - have had to face it and have had changed Ts&Cs, etc in the past decade and more. I‘m not bitter about it at all (I don’t do bitter), but I do wish that there was room for discussion and compromise.

There is. It's called the negotiating procedure. And it's worked (generally pretty well) for decades. And the Ts & Cs of footplate staff have changed hugely over the years.

I've sat on both sides of the table - as a staff rep (albeit TSSA, not ASLEF), and a management rep (facing ASLEF reps). As I say, it generally works well.

It's not helped when politicians and wet behind the ears managers start talking about things like PNBs being a left over from steam days when firemen needed a rest!

 

[Seehof]

What are the proposed changes to T&Cs that are making the drivers so angry?

 

[Facing Back]

Unless the Government want to prove to the country that's it's awesome by actually putting it's Minimum Service Bill into action.

As well as affecting Rail Staff, the Minimum Service Bill actually affects Teachers, Bus Drivers, Firefighters, Hospital Staff, and Paramedics as well. Maybe Lorry Drivers. Maybe other groups like Supermarket Workers can be classed as essential. It's the thin end of a wedge.

But whipped up into a state of outrage by the media, train drivers are the ideal target to get everyone to think that this bill is great news.

The Government will make trains run on an ASLEF strike day. That is the intent.

It could potentially affect lorry drivers but that seems unlikely to me. It really can't affect supermarket workers but you missed border guards and people involved in radioactive waste from your list.

I haven't seen much whipping up to a stage of outrage by the media. Rail strikes appear to be business as usual at the moment - there is a general level of irritation but little outrage (that I see).

The government making trains run on ASLEF strike days seems to be absolutely one of the intents of the bill.

 

[greyman42]

In return for which you have to sacrifice your family life.

There are many jobs which require some "sacrifice" to family life.

 

[Oxfordblues]

At least today the Avanti Delay-Repay office will have a brief respite from the tsunami of claims it's had to deal with in recent weeks.

 

[northwichcat]

A lot of deleted Avanti services tomorrow. For example, no London departures from Manchester between 08:35 and 10:15!

Realtime Trains | Departures from Manchester Piccadilly between 0200 and 0159 on 04/12/2023

Train information at Manchester Piccadilly between 0200 and 0159 on 04/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[dk1]

Thanks for that, i couldn't remember the exact detail, it's a very long time since i was in Employee Relations.

Suffice to say then, that if you're required to take a day off after every 13 consecutive days of duty, you can't work every available rest day in a roster.

Yes that’s correct. I was in rostering when the Hidden recommendations were implemented. Boy did it cause some arguments and headaches and yes we cocked up on many occasions. Most railway staff working shifts (traincrew excluded on less than 12 hrs between turns as they already had this well before at the depots I was involved in) simply couldn’t understand why they couldn’t finish for example at 22:00 and come back at 06:00 the next day or work 06:00-14:00 then a finish off 18:00-22:00 the same day. We had so many claims we obviously had to decline then get accused of taking money out of their pockets.

What are the proposed changes to T&Cs that are making the drivers so angry?

There are several but most important to me has been my movement off spare from 3hrs to as much as 8hrs. That is never going to be accepted in a million years. All add up to awful working conditions taking us back into the dark ages and the DfT have the cheek to think that should be accepted for a paltry increase in basic pay.

 

[class 9]

What are the proposed changes to T&Cs that are making the drivers so angry?

There are many proposals that include lower salary for new starters, reduced sick pay, extended notice periods, alterations to Driver training(presumably reduced), complete rewriting of working arrangements, compulsory Sundays as overtime( not in the working week), unlimited movement from spare, moving of rest days, reduced annual leave.
This is what I can remember off the top of my head, bear in mind all the 16 TOCs will have differing versions of the above agreements, so a one size fits all can't work.
So all these substantial proposed changes, for a below inflation offer after nearly 5 years without a payrise as well, its no surprise it was quickly rejected.

 

[Silverlinky]

It was in another thread but here is a copy of the letter which contained the RDG April offer.....

PAY & REFORMS PROPOSAL
I refer to our meeting yesterday and I am setting out in this letter a pay and reforms proposal.
This proposal seeks to reflect the discussions that have taken place at industry‐wide level since mid‐February between representatives of the passenger train operators (TOCs) and the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineman and Fireman (ASLEF) arising from the dispute on pay between the TOCs & ASLEF.
This proposal seeks to balance a fair pay deal for employees with the need for workforce reforms to help put the industry finances on a sustainable footing for the future, recognising that whilst off peak leisure travel has recovered to above pre‐Covid levels overall passenger revenue has plateaued at circa 80% of pre‐covid levels due to lower demand for peak and business travel.
This proposal seeks to resolve the current disputes that exist between ASLEF and TOCs on pay and the associated cessation of further industrial action in this dispute.
PAY OFFER
The proposal comprises a two‐year pay offer which provides for a 4% increase in year one (including retrospective pay) and a further increase of 4% in year two to be based on the successful outcome of reform discussions.
Year one will apply from the respective 2022 TOC pay anniversary date and year two will apply from the respective 2023 TOC pay anniversary date. The exceptions to this are C2C and South‐ West Railway who will receive the year two increase only from 2023 TOC pay anniversary date to reflect they have both received a 2022 pay increase under previously agreed multi‐year deals.
Annual TOC pay negotiations will resume in 2024 reflecting the respective TOC anniversary dates.
Rail Delivery Group Limited Registered Office, 2nd Floor, 200 Aldersgate Street, London EC1A 4HD www.raildeliverygroup.com 020 7841 8000 Registered in England and Wales No. 08176197

YEAR ONE ‐ 2022
Year one will become payable on ASLEF endorsing this proposal through a referendum of its members and subsequent receipt of formal acceptance under the respective TOC collective bargaining arrangements. This proposal includes the industry‐wide reform elements set out below: ‐
o Driver Training Competence Review & Driver Training Complimentary Certificate (Part B) *
o Rolling Stock Procurement*
o Train Driver Career Progression
o New Entrants Driver Salary Progression
o New Improving Attendance Policy
o Rolling Sick Pay Year and New Entrants Sick Pay Qualification Periods o Notice Periods
Each of these elements will be brought forward for discussion in accordance with the respective recognised TOC collective bargaining procedures.
* Driver Training Competence Review & Complimentary Certificate and Rolling Stock Procurement elements will continue to have industry‐wide oversight which will include the setting up of an Industry Joint Committee for Rolling Stock Procurement.
YEAR TWO ‐ 2023
Year two will be payable upon successful conclusion of meaningful discussions on reform elements contained within individual TOC proposals which will be held in accordance with the respective recognised TOC collective bargaining procedural arrangements.
The scope of these TOC level discussions is to be based on the Bespoke Framework Reform Elements listed below. This will require each TOC to undertake a scoping exercise to determine which elements are appropriate, recognising these will vary by each TOC.
o Working Arrangements Principles
o Sunday Working (7‐Day Railway) Arrangements
o Diagramming and Rostering Including Leave Arrangements o Spare Turns & Utilisation Arrangements
o Annual Leave Entitlement Arrangements
o New SMART Technology Equipment
TOCs will bring forward proposals based upon the outcome of the scoping exercise for discussion under the respective collective bargaining procedures. These discussions are on the understanding that progress is concluded in each TOC within an expected three‐month period following any endorsement of this proposal.

I believe the discussions leading up to this proposal have been undertaken in good faith by both parties in order to try and seek a resolution to the current industrial dispute over pay which exists between ASLEF and TOCs. I understand this proposal will be considered by your Executive Committee at the earliest opportunity and you will advise me of the outcome after their due consideration.
Your sincerely,
Steve Montgomery
Chair of Rail Delivery Group (RDG)

 

[Krokodil]

There are many jobs which require some "sacrifice" to family life.

Yes, I'm well aware of that (working on the railway isn't some cushy 9-5 number after all). I do however value the mitigations such as predictable rest day patterns and limits on permitted movement from spare that mean that I can plan my private life. How is anyone supposed to organise childcare if you can be moved all of the way around the clock at short notice?

 

[Dieseldriver]

There are many jobs which require some "sacrifice" to family life.

There are, Train Driving being one of them.

 

[dk1]

There are, Train Driving being one of them.

And of course our shifts as train drivers are light years away from the standard 06-14, 14-22 & 22-06 that many just associate with shift working.

 

[vikingdriver]

And of course our shifts as train drivers are light years away from the standard 06-14, 14-22 & 22-06 that many just associate with shift working.

It'd be amazing to be able to have shifts like that, my body would thank me!

 

[Confused52]

There are several but most important to me has been my movement off spare from 3hrs to as much as 8hrs. That is never going to be accepted in a million years. All add up to awful working conditions taking us back into the dark ages and the DfT have the cheek to think that should be accepted for a paltry increase in basic pay.

This seems to come up regularly. What is the source of this detailed proposal?

The only thing in the public domain that I have found is the ACoP in the TSSA agreement:

"
Spare Allocation Within Rosters

Spare requirement and service protection turns should be determined in accordance with
data supplied through availability and utilisation returns to provide for business needs of
robust performance and efficiency and be proportionate to workload.

The placement of spares within rosters and their length to be in line with the parameters
provided by the company.

Lengths of individual spares may vary but the average length of the spares should reflect the
diagram average turn length of the depot.

Rosters should be produced with full weeks of spare to meet business needs."

That CoP does not give the draconian detail which you quote. So where does it come from?

Why would the CoP be different in principle for Drivers? This lack of transparency has been a problem for a long time.

 

[exbrel]

They’re provided with a taxi to their home depot. In some extreme cases this may be to their home address (if they rely on public transport which is no longer running) or hotel accommodation and board

thank you for your reply...

 

[theironroad]

And of course our shifts as train drivers are light years away from the standard 06-14, 14-22 & 22-06 that many just associate with shift working.

Exactly this.

Even on the railway, most shifts have standard start and finish times, think depots, control etc. Possibly only drivers and guards have to endure 'flexible rostering'.

Even within a base roster, earlies could be 0400 on day 1 then 0600,0350,0511,0427,0600 etc. That's even before taking into account contractual movement around spare for cancelled, amended and uncovered turns.

The regular shift 06/14 etc is well documented to have a adverse effect on long term health, the flexible rostering that can have wildly changing start times and finish times is less well documented, not only sleep patterns but eating times/habits.

I'm not too sure if flight crews/cabin crews and bus/coach drivers have exactly the same flexible rostering, but otherwise it would be interesting to hear if any other jobs have such extreme 'flexible rostering'.

 

[CastlebarKeith]

l went to a pre-Christmas party on Saturday evening

WHAT IS VERY SAD is that l bumped into an old colleague who told me that his firm have arranged for 3-day a week office working from January with 2 days a week working from home
Rail strikes and unreliability was stated to be the cause. lf true, and if this is repeated across the country, it will have an effect on revenues.
l also know of a near neighbour who has bought a new electric car because of regularly missed "connections" (LizLine) getting to his office

This is very, very sad