ATW's Pacer Replacements: Any news?

[darylyates17]

Does anyone know whats happening with ATWs Pacer replacements as they need to be gone by 2019 and the Franchise ends in 2018 so sorting out replacements might be a problem

 

[PHILIPE]

Does anyone know whats happening with ATWs Pacer replacements as they need to be gone by 2019 and the Franchise ends in 2018 so sorting out replacements might be a problem

There are numerous threads and speculation on the Forum on this topic regarding cascading of units. No. There is nothing yet been decided with WTW Pacers yet and probably won't be until the details of the new franchise are announced.

 

[387star]

maybe build some new diesels and cascade them to northern etc once the valleys are wired up to enable some 150s to have an early retirement or be cascaded elsewhere

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There's still the possibility that the 143s could be upgraded and retained. This is probably more likely if a workable plan for electrification is settled on. A completion date for wiring in around 2026 may make upgrading the better Pacers (with 144s replacing the 142s) worthwhile.

 

[krus_aragon]

There's still the possibility that the 143s could be upgraded and retained. This is probably more likely if a workable plan for electrification is settled on. A completion date for wiring in around 2026 may make upgrading the better Pacers (with 144s replacing the 142s) worthwhile.

It's a possibility, but bear in mind that the current Valleys stock needs supplication as well as replacement, and that's before you consider the fact that ePacers have less capacity. You might need to swap in all 30-odd upgraded 144s for the current 15 142s, and upgrade all the 143s to keep pace.

 

[47802]

I think the point is if your going to get rid of them fairly soon due to electrification just do the bare minimum rather than a full e pacer upgrade and if they end up choosing a light rail solution for the valley lines then that's a good excuse to ditch the Toilets rather than replace them on the Pacers.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's a possibility, but bear in mind that the current Valleys stock needs supplication as well as replacement, and that's before you consider the fact that ePacers have less capacity. You might need to swap in all 30-odd upgraded 144s for the current 15 142s, and upgrade all the 143s to keep pace.

There are only 23 144s, though 10 have a centre car. Upgrading all Alexander Pacers would still leave a shortfall admittedly, but there are also 153s and 156s from GA which could help out either directly or by releasing 150s elsewhere.

 

[anthony263]

I suspect we may seen eth class 144's as well as the GWR class 143's coming to the valleys with eth atw 143's also being retained and given some sort of refurbishment.

The 142's I think will be history however I can see the WG trying to get their hands on some extra dmu's such as 153's etc to provide some extra capacity.

The future for the valley lines network is light rail/tram-train with the exception of the Maesteg and Ebbw Vale branches which will remain heavy rail

 

[krus_aragon]

There are only 23 144s, though 10 have a centre car. Upgrading all Alexander Pacers would still leave a shortfall admittedly, but there are also 153s and 156s from GA which could help out either directly or by releasing 150s elsewhere.

Thank you for the correction. I think 30 got stuck in my head as the number of pacers (142/143) curently operated by ATW.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 142's I think will be history however I can see the WG trying to get their hands on some extra dmu's such as 153's etc to provide some extra capacity.

The 153s also have post-2019 issues, including accesibility, toilet/seating capacity, and rumoured bodyshell sagging. The owners haven't said anything about what they intend to do with them, according to [thread=134987]this thread[/thread].

 

[sprinterguy]

There are only 23 144s, though 10 have a centre car. Upgrading all Alexander Pacers would still leave a shortfall admittedly...

I'm not sure how 23 units consisting of 56 carriages replacing 15 units consisting of 30 carriages can be considered a shortfall. The ePacer has fourteen fixed seats fewer than a standard ATW 143 (though also 9 fewer tip-up seats), so if it were possible to operate 5-car ePacer formations (3-car 144 + 2-car 143/144), which remains slightly shorter than a 4-car class 150 formation, you wouldn't see a reduction in seats compared to current 4-car Pacer workings.

Would a 6-car Pacer "lash-up" be possible within existing platform lengths on the Valley lines, given that such a formation would be less than a carriage longer than a 4-car class 150 formation? If so, even in ePacer configuration that would offer more seats than existing 4-car Pacer formations.

 

[krus_aragon]

Would a 6-car Pacer "lash-up" be possible within existing platform lengths on the Valley lines, given that such a formation would be less than a carriage longer than a 4-car class 150 formation? If so, even in ePacer configuration that would offer more seats than existing 4-car Pacer formations.

On some lines (Rhondda and Rhymney IIRC) platform lengthening work has been done for this already, ~10 years ago. It's only lack of stock that has prevented its implementation.

 

[daikilo]

The future for the valley lines network is light rail/tram-train with the exception of the Maesteg and Ebbw Vale branches which will remain heavy rail

What would be the value of just converting heavy rail to light unless new routes are added including e.g. street running? Unless all platforms are rebuilt they will be high-floor similar to the Manchester examples, which is not state of the art.

That said, a fleet of purpose-designed light-weight and/or hybrid-drive units could make sense given the geography of the routes. However, no-way can they relax crash requirements given the mixed running on certain parts of the network.

 

[1179_Clee2]

There are only 23 144s, though 10 have a centre car. Upgrading all Alexander Pacers would still leave a shortfall admittedly, but there are also 153s and 156s from GA which could help out either directly or by releasing 150s elsewhere.

WHAT SHORTFALL

Arriva currently have 30 pacers 15 Class 142 and 15 Class 143.
Replace 15 Class 142 with 23 Class 144, 10 of which are 3 car and can operate with 2 car pacers to run as 5 car pacers, no platforms need to be lengthened as no longer than a 4 car Class 150
Add in the 8 Class 143 from GWR and that is 46 trains, 16 more than currently operated so where is the shortfall?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thank you for the correction. I think 30 got stuck in my head as the number of pacers (142/143) curently operated by ATW.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The 153s also have post-2019 issues, including accesibility, toilet/seating capacity, and rumoured bodyshell sagging. The owners haven't said anything about what they intend to do with them, according to [thread=134987]this thread[/thread].

People keep bringing up this "body sag" issue with the Leyland Sprinters. I can't see it and I've not heard it mentioned outside of this forum though, so it may well be one of the many "railway enthusiast myths" (Though if it was a problem the ROSCOs would no doubt want to keep it out of the public domain!). If it was a major problem surely Northern wouldn't be retaining the 155s? What has been said of the 153s is that they're unlikely to be made 2020-proof as single cars. The 155 currently at Brodies Kilmarnock for Northern may give an idea of what may be required to make a 2/3-car unit up from the 153s.

WHAT SHORTFALL

Arriva currently have 30 pacers 15 Class 142 and 15 Class 143.
Replace 15 Class 142 with 23 Class 144, 10 of which are 3 car and can operate with 2 car pacers to run as 5 car pacers, no platforms need to be lengthened as no longer than a 4 car Class 150
Add in the 8 Class 143 from GWR and that is 46 trains, 16 more than currently operated so where is the shortfall?

I'd assumed a shortfall based on the capacity loss in making the Pacers compliant, and not knowing the exact fleet size of the ATW/GWR 143 fleet- I know that unlike the 144s, at least 2 143s have self-combusted. As someone mentioned upthread, platform extensions have gone unused due to a shortage of stock so even the small gains from the 144s may not meet the latent demand.

As I said in the Northern Refurbishment thread, I finally got to sample 144012 yesterday and was very impressed with it. Bear in mind that this was from Huddersfield to Mirfield which even on stopping services includes some fairly fast running through the Heaton Lodge dive-under (My GPS speed app showed around 60 to 65mph from the Mamas & Papas factory through to the Mirfield Kingdom Hall overbridge).

 

[1179_Clee2]

I'd assumed a shortfall based on the capacity loss in making the Pacers compliant, and not knowing the exact fleet size of the ATW/GWR 143 fleet- I know that unlike the 144s, at least 2 143s have self-combusted. As someone mentioned upthread, platform extensions have gone unused due to a shortage of stock so even the small gains from the 144s may not meet the latent demand.

As I said in the Northern Refurbishment thread, I finally got to sample 144012 yesterday and was very impressed with it. Bear in mind that this was from Huddersfield to Mirfield which even on stopping services includes some fairly fast running through the Heaton Lodge dive-under (My GPS speed app showed around 60 to 65mph from the Mamas & Papas factory through to the Mirfield Kingdom Hall overbridge).

It is not just Arriva Trains Wales that have to make trains 2020 compliant but every franchise in the country.
It is not a excuse not to have trains just because they have less seats than they had prior to be made 2020 compliant.
It is up to every franchise to work out how they are going to cope with less seats in the same trains.
The welsh assembly with the new train operator are going to have to work what they are doing with the valley lines, if heavy rail is retained a interim solution needs to be found prior to electric trains running.

 

[PHILIPE]

WHAT SHORTFALL

Arriva currently have 30 pacers 15 Class 142 and 15 Class 143.
Replace 15 Class 142 with 23 Class 144, 10 of which are 3 car and can operate with 2 car pacers to run as 5 car pacers, no platforms need to be lengthened as no longer than a 4 car Class 150
Add in the 8 Class 143 from GWR and that is 46 trains, 16 more than currently operated so where is the shortfall?

In reality, many more units are required to tackle the chronic overcrowding.

 

[gareth950]

If this post from another forum is to be believed, it seems that the WG will keep the ATW Pacers going until they all end up self combusting, Caerphilly style.

"Three-quarters of ATW's fleet does not comply with the PRM TSI (accessibility standards) and no plan has been announced to modify any of the rolling stock for continued operation after the 1 January 2020 deadline. The Welsh Government is not seeking a derogation and expects that compliant cascaded vehicles will be available to help the ODP to sustain services until new trains are delivered, Modern Railways understands."

So mass derogations for the Welsh fleet will be needed come 2019 to save the valleys especially from mass stock withdrawals and bustitution, when the penny drops at the WG that are are NO cascaded, fully compliant 2020 ready DMU's heading Wales' way.

If that's the attitude the WG is taking then they might as well tell Angel they will take all of Northern's 142s, and tell Porterbrook they want their 143s and 144s, and give the valleys a proper rolling stock boost. No need for mods - they'll just take them no matter what state they're in. Imagine 6 - 8 car Pacers on every service up and down the Valleys!

You'll have people flocking to Wales to get the proper 1980s rail experience!

Sarcasm over - I'm speechless.

 

[Rhydgaled]

NO cascaded, fully compliant 2020 ready DMU's heading Wales' way.

Let's actually assess what might be available (although, of course, EMT is up for renewal first and might grab the lot).

Diesel stock released from other franchises (excluding 142s, because they won't be made compliant, and IC125s, because there's no guarantee there'll be time to modify any more than already planned):

• Northern: 22x 144 NOT COMPLIANT Sept 2018 - March 2019
• Northern: 18x 153 NOT COMPLIANT May-November 2019
• Greater Anglia: 5x 153 NOT COMPLIANT release date unknown
• Northern: 1x 144 COMPLIANT Sept 2018 - Jan 2019
• TPE: 22x 185 COMPLIANT Nov 2019 - March 2020
• Greater Anglia: 9x 156 COMPLIANT release date unknown
• East Coast ?x mrk4 coaches COMPLIANT release date unknown
• Greater Anglia: 12x 170 COMPLIANT release date unknown
• ScotRail/Southern 5x 170 COMPLIANT May not actually be being released
• London Overground 8x 172 COMPLIANT but NO TOILETS release date unknown (Jan 2019?)
• ScotRail 5x 156 compliance not known release date not known

Can anyone fill in the blanks above? And am I missing any units that will be released?

Looking at the dates in Modern Railways for delivery of current train orders, it looks like the only new-built non-EMU fleet which could perhaps be delivered by 2020 is a follow-on order of mrk5 coaches of a similar size to TPE's batch.

The other options which might be a solution for the ValleyLines are the D-Train (although the fire-related delay might scupper that option, and would a short lease (until electrification) be enough for Vivarail to throw money at the project?) and the 319 with diesel engine. I know very little about the latter; how many could be available by 2020 and would they have sufficient performance when running on diesel power to essentially run as a DMU for the first few years if they came to Wales? And could you fit a decent outer-suburban interior (sufficient legroom for 2hr journeys with good window alignment) to keep them busy on Wales & Borders services once the currently promissed electrification is fully installed?

 

[Great_Western]

Initailly it will probably be a case of cascaded 153's which will get converted back in to 155's to displace enough sprinters to make the valley lines go all 150 until any electrifacation is confirmed. That seems like the only viable option at the moment. The only other sensible options for extra capacity are e143/144's or pehaps getting FGW to cascade enough 165's to Chiltern to release their 172's along with the LROL 172's down for the valley's.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Initailly it will probably be a case of cascaded 153's which will get converted back in to 155's to displace enough sprinters to make the valley lines go all 150 until any electrifacation is confirmed. That seems like the only viable option at the moment.

That would help, but ATW do not have enough 150s to replace all their Pacers (36x 150 versus 30 Pacers, so unless only 6 of their 150s are currently diagrammed on ValleyLines work that wouldn't work). Also, there is still the problem that you have to throw £££s at the 150s to make them compliant and once the valleys are electrified 36 class 150s will be too many for the franchise. Given the investment required, will the ROSCO(s) allow a short-enough lease on 150s?

The only other sensible options for extra capacity are e143/144's or pehaps getting FGW to cascade enough 165's to Chiltern to release their 172's along with the LROL 172's down for the valley's.

Great Western are struggling to find enough 165s and 166s for their own internal cascade at the moment, due to the electrification delays. I had overlooked the London Overground 172s though; thanks for pointing that out. My previous post has now been updated to include them. Anything else I've missed?

 

[Mordac]

That would help, but ATW do not have enough 150s to replace all their Pacers (36x 150 versus 30 Pacers, so unless only 6 of their 150s are currently diagrammed on ValleyLines work that wouldn't work). Also, there is still the problem that you have to throw £££s at the 150s to make them compliant and once the valleys are electrified 36 class 150s will be too many for the franchise. Given the investment required, will the ROSCO(s) allow a short-enough lease on 150s?

Great Western are struggling to find enough 165s and 166s for their own internal cascade at the moment, due to the electrification delays. I had overlooked the London Overground 172s though; thanks for pointing that out. My previous post has now been updated to include them. Anything else I've missed?

There's 4 180s coming from Hull Trains once they get the 802s, but I don't know that they'd be much use for ATW. Also don't know dates.

EDIT: Greater Anglia's MK3 coaches will also become available.

 

[Rhydgaled]

There's 4 180s coming from Hull Trains once they get the 802s, but I don't know that they'd be much use for ATW. Also don't know dates.

Good spot. They would be useful (the Manchester-Swansea route could do with longer trains, and the mrk3s are not TSI-PRM compliant) but wouldn't really help much in replacing Pacers. However, I thought Grand Central had already called dibs on the entire class 180 fleet, so I won't point them on the list unless somebody knows otherwise.

 

[PHILIPE]

There's 4 180s coming from Hull Trains once they get the 802s, but I don't know that they'd be much use for ATW. Also don't know dates.

They wouldn't maintain a small fleet of 4. I think the real answer to the topic question is frankly no news because nobody knows

 

[Mordac]

Good spot. They would be useful (the Manchester-Swansea route could do with longer trains, and the mrk3s are not TSI-PRM compliant) but wouldn't really help much in replacing Pacers. However, I thought Grand Central had already called dibs on the entire class 180 fleet, so I won't point them on the list unless somebody knows otherwise.

I don't think GC is taking the Hull Trains 180s, just the Great Western ones. What would they even do with them?

 

[gareth950]

I've seen a rumour elsewhere that suggested if Arriva win the new Wales and Borders franchise, and if enough money changed hands, Arriva could well divert some 150s from Northern to Wales. Not sure how this would work though as obviously Northern would then need extra cascaded DMUs from elsewhere, or more new DMUs ordered to make up the shortfall.

Does anyone know exactly how many 150s are diagrammed to work on the valleys Mon-Sat?
If enough long distance stock can be found to displace all of Wales' 150s to the valleys, along with 153s permanently in multiple/155s working Penarth-Rhymney services, would that be enough to withdraw Pacers without a significant capacity reduction?
Replacing 30 Pacers with 36 150s plus whatever 153s/155s can be found to work Rhymney.

And ironically, if after Oct 2018 there's a mad rush to get Wales' 150s compliant, we could see more Pacers transferred from Northern temporarily working the Valleys in 2019 to allow 150s to be taken out of service and undergo mods.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Do we have a full understanding of what stock (if any) Scotrail will be releasing in the next few years and what the plans for it are? Surely electrification of Edinburgh-Glasgow, Stirling, Shotts, etc will release more than a handful of 156s and a couple of Turbostars?

 

[PHILIPE]

I've seen a rumour elsewhere that suggested if Arriva win the new Wales and Borders franchise, and if enough money changed hands, Arriva could well divert some 150s from Northern to Wales. Not sure how this would work though as obviously Northern would then need extra cascaded DMUs from elsewhere, or more new DMUs ordered to make up the shortfall.

Does anyone know exactly how many 150s are diagrammed to work on the valleys Mon-Sat?
If enough long distance stock can be found to displace all of Wales' 150s to the valleys, along with 153s permanently in multiple/155s working Penarth-Rhymney services, would that be enough to withdraw Pacers without a significant capacity reduction?
Replacing 30 Pacers with 36 150s plus whatever 153s/155s can be found to work Rhymney.



And ironically, if after Oct 2018 there's a mad rush to get Wales' 150s compliant, we could see more Pacers transferred from Northern temporarily working the Valleys in 2019 to allow 150s to be taken out of service and undergo mods.

Northern are due to receive GWRs & LMs 150/1s and also the CAF new build.
I don't think the 153s will ever go back to 155s as it could be too expensive to put them back to what they were. They are better single as now as it would provide more flexibility by working either singly or as a pair

 

[gareth950]

Northern are due to receive GWRs & LMs 150/1s and also the CAF new build.
I don't think the 153s will ever go back to 155s as it could be too expensive to put them back to what they were. They are better single as now as it would provide more flexibility by working either singly or as a pair

As I said, it was just a rumour. I don't believe it, but it would make more sense to send those 150/1s to Wales to see out their days until valleys electrification and Northern have extra CAF new builds instead.

 

[PHILIPE]

As I said, it was just a rumour. I don't believe it, but it would make more sense to send those 150/1s to Wales to see out their days until valleys electrification and Northern have extra CAF new builds instead.

We don't want the scruffy interior of 150/1s with their 3+2 seating in our neck of the woods. Any extra CAFs would cost money.

 

[47802]

Do we have a full understanding of what stock (if any) Scotrail will be releasing in the next few years and what the plans for it are? Surely electrification of Edinburgh-Glasgow, Stirling, Shotts, etc will release more than a handful of 156s and a couple of Turbostars?

Most cascaded Scotrail DMU's are going to Northern, there are supposedly 5 156's spare, and Southern have not taken all 9 170's they were supposed to be getting, don't forget Scotrail are keeping 13 more 170's than originally intended.