darylyates17
Member
Does anyone know whats happening with ATWs Pacer replacements as they need to be gone by 2019 and the Franchise ends in 2018 so sorting out replacements might be a problem
Does anyone know whats happening with ATWs Pacer replacements as they need to be gone by 2019 and the Franchise ends in 2018 so sorting out replacements might be a problem
There's still the possibility that the 143s could be upgraded and retained. This is probably more likely if a workable plan for electrification is settled on. A completion date for wiring in around 2026 may make upgrading the better Pacers (with 144s replacing the 142s) worthwhile.
It's a possibility, but bear in mind that the current Valleys stock needs supplication as well as replacement, and that's before you consider the fact that ePacers have less capacity. You might need to swap in all 30-odd upgraded 144s for the current 15 142s, and upgrade all the 143s to keep pace.
There are only 23 144s, though 10 have a centre car. Upgrading all Alexander Pacers would still leave a shortfall admittedly, but there are also 153s and 156s from GA which could help out either directly or by releasing 150s elsewhere.
The 142's I think will be history however I can see the WG trying to get their hands on some extra dmu's such as 153's etc to provide some extra capacity.
I'm not sure how 23 units consisting of 56 carriages replacing 15 units consisting of 30 carriages can be considered a shortfall. The ePacer has fourteen fixed seats fewer than a standard ATW 143 (though also 9 fewer tip-up seats), so if it were possible to operate 5-car ePacer formations (3-car 144 + 2-car 143/144), which remains slightly shorter than a 4-car class 150 formation, you wouldn't see a reduction in seats compared to current 4-car Pacer workings.There are only 23 144s, though 10 have a centre car. Upgrading all Alexander Pacers would still leave a shortfall admittedly...
Would a 6-car Pacer "lash-up" be possible within existing platform lengths on the Valley lines, given that such a formation would be less than a carriage longer than a 4-car class 150 formation? If so, even in ePacer configuration that would offer more seats than existing 4-car Pacer formations.
The future for the valley lines network is light rail/tram-train with the exception of the Maesteg and Ebbw Vale branches which will remain heavy rail
There are only 23 144s, though 10 have a centre car. Upgrading all Alexander Pacers would still leave a shortfall admittedly, but there are also 153s and 156s from GA which could help out either directly or by releasing 150s elsewhere.
Thank you for the correction. I think 30 got stuck in my head as the number of pacers (142/143) curently operated by ATW.
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The 153s also have post-2019 issues, including accesibility, toilet/seating capacity, and rumoured bodyshell sagging. The owners haven't said anything about what they intend to do with them, according to [thread=134987]this thread[/thread].
WHAT SHORTFALL
Arriva currently have 30 pacers 15 Class 142 and 15 Class 143.
Replace 15 Class 142 with 23 Class 144, 10 of which are 3 car and can operate with 2 car pacers to run as 5 car pacers, no platforms need to be lengthened as no longer than a 4 car Class 150
Add in the 8 Class 143 from GWR and that is 46 trains, 16 more than currently operated so where is the shortfall?
I'd assumed a shortfall based on the capacity loss in making the Pacers compliant, and not knowing the exact fleet size of the ATW/GWR 143 fleet- I know that unlike the 144s, at least 2 143s have self-combusted. As someone mentioned upthread, platform extensions have gone unused due to a shortage of stock so even the small gains from the 144s may not meet the latent demand.
As I said in the Northern Refurbishment thread, I finally got to sample 144012 yesterday and was very impressed with it. Bear in mind that this was from Huddersfield to Mirfield which even on stopping services includes some fairly fast running through the Heaton Lodge dive-under (My GPS speed app showed around 60 to 65mph from the Mamas & Papas factory through to the Mirfield Kingdom Hall overbridge).
WHAT SHORTFALL
Arriva currently have 30 pacers 15 Class 142 and 15 Class 143.
Replace 15 Class 142 with 23 Class 144, 10 of which are 3 car and can operate with 2 car pacers to run as 5 car pacers, no platforms need to be lengthened as no longer than a 4 car Class 150
Add in the 8 Class 143 from GWR and that is 46 trains, 16 more than currently operated so where is the shortfall?
"Three-quarters of ATW's fleet does not comply with the PRM TSI (accessibility standards) and no plan has been announced to modify any of the rolling stock for continued operation after the 1 January 2020 deadline. The Welsh Government is not seeking a derogation and expects that compliant cascaded vehicles will be available to help the ODP to sustain services until new trains are delivered, Modern Railways understands."
Let's actually assess what might be available (although, of course, EMT is up for renewal first and might grab the lot).NO cascaded, fully compliant 2020 ready DMU's heading Wales' way.
That would help, but ATW do not have enough 150s to replace all their Pacers (36x 150 versus 30 Pacers, so unless only 6 of their 150s are currently diagrammed on ValleyLines work that wouldn't work). Also, there is still the problem that you have to throw £££s at the 150s to make them compliant and once the valleys are electrified 36 class 150s will be too many for the franchise. Given the investment required, will the ROSCO(s) allow a short-enough lease on 150s?Initailly it will probably be a case of cascaded 153's which will get converted back in to 155's to displace enough sprinters to make the valley lines go all 150 until any electrifacation is confirmed. That seems like the only viable option at the moment.
Great Western are struggling to find enough 165s and 166s for their own internal cascade at the moment, due to the electrification delays. I had overlooked the London Overground 172s though; thanks for pointing that out. My previous post has now been updated to include them. Anything else I've missed?The only other sensible options for extra capacity are e143/144's or pehaps getting FGW to cascade enough 165's to Chiltern to release their 172's along with the LROL 172's down for the valley's.
That would help, but ATW do not have enough 150s to replace all their Pacers (36x 150 versus 30 Pacers, so unless only 6 of their 150s are currently diagrammed on ValleyLines work that wouldn't work). Also, there is still the problem that you have to throw £££s at the 150s to make them compliant and once the valleys are electrified 36 class 150s will be too many for the franchise. Given the investment required, will the ROSCO(s) allow a short-enough lease on 150s?
Great Western are struggling to find enough 165s and 166s for their own internal cascade at the moment, due to the electrification delays. I had overlooked the London Overground 172s though; thanks for pointing that out. My previous post has now been updated to include them. Anything else I've missed?
Good spot. They would be useful (the Manchester-Swansea route could do with longer trains, and the mrk3s are not TSI-PRM compliant) but wouldn't really help much in replacing Pacers. However, I thought Grand Central had already called dibs on the entire class 180 fleet, so I won't point them on the list unless somebody knows otherwise.There's 4 180s coming from Hull Trains once they get the 802s, but I don't know that they'd be much use for ATW. Also don't know dates.
There's 4 180s coming from Hull Trains once they get the 802s, but I don't know that they'd be much use for ATW. Also don't know dates.
Good spot. They would be useful (the Manchester-Swansea route could do with longer trains, and the mrk3s are not TSI-PRM compliant) but wouldn't really help much in replacing Pacers. However, I thought Grand Central had already called dibs on the entire class 180 fleet, so I won't point them on the list unless somebody knows otherwise.
I've seen a rumour elsewhere that suggested if Arriva win the new Wales and Borders franchise, and if enough money changed hands, Arriva could well divert some 150s from Northern to Wales. Not sure how this would work though as obviously Northern would then need extra cascaded DMUs from elsewhere, or more new DMUs ordered to make up the shortfall.
Does anyone know exactly how many 150s are diagrammed to work on the valleys Mon-Sat?
If enough long distance stock can be found to displace all of Wales' 150s to the valleys, along with 153s permanently in multiple/155s working Penarth-Rhymney services, would that be enough to withdraw Pacers without a significant capacity reduction?
Replacing 30 Pacers with 36 150s plus whatever 153s/155s can be found to work Rhymney.
And ironically, if after Oct 2018 there's a mad rush to get Wales' 150s compliant, we could see more Pacers transferred from Northern temporarily working the Valleys in 2019 to allow 150s to be taken out of service and undergo mods.
Northern are due to receive GWRs & LMs 150/1s and also the CAF new build.
I don't think the 153s will ever go back to 155s as it could be too expensive to put them back to what they were. They are better single as now as it would provide more flexibility by working either singly or as a pair
As I said, it was just a rumour. I don't believe it, but it would make more sense to send those 150/1s to Wales to see out their days until valleys electrification and Northern have extra CAF new builds instead.
Do we have a full understanding of what stock (if any) Scotrail will be releasing in the next few years and what the plans for it are? Surely electrification of Edinburgh-Glasgow, Stirling, Shotts, etc will release more than a handful of 156s and a couple of Turbostars?