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Autumn refresh for GWR Class 165/166 Turbos

RPI

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Quite. Some contributors based in the west don't appear to realise the Reading - Gatwicks semi-fasts are well patronised all day and can often be full to bursting.
Agreed, but the same can be said for those within the M25 that seem to think trains in Devon just carry farmer Palmer and his sheep dog, when in reality some of the biggest passenger growth over the past 20 years has been regional routes in the West.

As I've no doubt said before and I make no apology for doing so again, the "Devon Metro" routes are generally busy from start of service to the end, Peak or Off-Peak!
 
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fgwrich

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I imagine the non-slip properties of the flooring were considered of more importance than easy cleanability - you can't have both.

It’s the materials used for the refresh that is the problem - they are not up to the job.

But don’t even think of stopping the programme now or trying to enlarge the scope. That will just get it cancelled by the DfT, who had to be really persuaded to do it in the first place, despite the state of the units (thanks to the DfT refusing any refurbs on two previous occasions).

But I'm sure you can. With enough will and money, better materials could be used. Treadmaster manufacture many different types of flooring and have done for years - indeed the previous incarnation for FGW was both non slip and easy to clean*, and being a darker colour at least did a better job at attempting to hide the dirt better. Sadly, as @Clarence Yard eludes to, a more expensive better wearing flooring probably was available but with the DfT allowing funding for a more more restrained refresh, a cheaper version was no doubt selected instead. It's certainly not holding up so well in the 150/2s which often look dirtier than they should be.

*Funny enough I actually have some in our garage left over from one of the various refurbishment projects over the years.
 

Techniquest

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Clarence Yard makes an interesting point on previous refurbishment attempts being made but rejected. I have to say I was not aware of this, when were the two previous attempts?
 

Clarence Yard

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At the time the various Direct Award(s) discussions were going on. FG has always put up the state of the Turbos as something that needed addressing. The DfT thought otherwise.

It’s a similar thing with the 166 air conditioning and DA3. In a DA you can only offer what the DfT ‘requires” you to offer. The DfT made it plain that it “did not require” FG to propose moving to the Chiltern air cooling system for the 166 units.
 

Snow1964

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At the time the various Direct Award(s) discussions were going on. FG has always put up the state of the Turbos as something that needed addressing. The DfT thought otherwise.

It’s a similar thing with the 166 air conditioning and DA3. In a DA you can only offer what the DfT ‘requires” you to offer. The DfT made it plain that it “did not require” FG to propose moving to the Chiltern air cooling system for the 166 units.

It’s one of those between a rock and a hard place situations, if First felt strongly enough, they wouldn’t sign the contract in that form, however they accepted the DfT preference because they wanted the overall contract.

The cynics would probably phrase it as beggars can’t be choosers, basically if you want the management fee, do it the DfT way.

The realists would see a different part of the contract, the part that says must make every endeavour to provide sufficient seats for all off peak users for their whole journey. So regardless what happens with the turbos, GWR are expected to source extra trains quickly because they currently have crush loads on multiple trains in the west, so they are not really complying with that part of the contract.

Those who look at it from contractual view, will realise the turbos need to stay for at least 6 years, so in practical terms, do nothing means wont survive that long. But they will also have spotted the clauses that allow them to ask Secretary of State for variations. (Note contract says SoS, not DfT)
 

Clarence Yard

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No, they are not expected to source extra trains quickly to cope with any overcrowding. They are expected to use “reasonable endeavours” in operating their service with the stock they can use but obtaining extra stock (or indeed altering the details of any ROSCO contract they already have) is always subject to DfT scrutiny and approval. It’s a “straight red card offence” if you don’t.
 

Snow1964

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No, they are not expected to source extra trains quickly to cope with any overcrowding. They are expected to use “reasonable endeavours” in operating their service with the stock they can use but obtaining extra stock (or indeed altering the details of any ROSCO contract they already have) is always subject to DfT scrutiny and approval. It’s a “straight red card offence” if you don’t.
I was quite surprised the lawyers put in reasonable endeavours, as that means can't ignore the problem, or try once and give up, its a continuous process
 

Clarence Yard

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I would suggest you read the contract throughly - it allows them a lot of leeway, especially if the DfT doesn’t agree to the extra resources.
 

Snow1964

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I would suggest you read the contract throughly - it allows them a lot of leeway, especially if the DfT doesn’t agree to the extra resources.

Having been involved in International Trading for over 20 years, seen many contracts, and claims of millions for compensation where clauses are only partially implemented.

However for a contract of over 500 pages, there are some quite loose terms that allow leeway, I agree with you on that. It is actually quite weak from providing a minimum standard for the passengers (even though the whole reason for the contract is to provide a passenger service), especially where doing so might cost money.

The contract is actually badly skewed, it seems more weight is given to continuing (not cutting) current service (even where trains are running almost empty), or more precisely appears easier under the contract not to change things, than to switching resources to services that are struggling from busyness and lack of stock.

But before we go off topic, the turbos seem to need to continue until 2028 but doesn’t explain much about any changes (except the clauses to do with adding automatic passenger counting equipment)
 

Kite159

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I noticed the lack of 1st class signage on 109 last Friday.

Maybe GWR are hoping that the DfT will give them permission to simply do away with 1st class on the North Downs Line if they know the sales of 1st class tickets on that line are minimal
 

Deepgreen

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I noticed the lack of 1st class signage on 109 last Friday.

Maybe GWR are hoping that the DfT will give them permission to simply do away with 1st class on the North Downs Line if they know the sales of 1st class tickets on that line are minimal
Tail wagging the dog. In the meantime I imagine they are in breach of contract by failing to provide appropriate first class accommodation (marked as such) when advertised in the timetable, and still charging passengers first class fares. The problem is that there is no pride in the job today - it's all scraping along with what they can get away with, legally/contractually and financially.
 
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3973EXL

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Snow1964

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Just came across some interesting clauses in the new GWR contract with DfT

Chapter 4.3 The Rolling stock
2.1 The Operator shall maintain the composition of the Train Fleet during the Contract Period, unless the Secretary of State otherwise agrees or otherwise directs the Operator pursuant to paragraph 2.4, such that there are no changes to the Train Fleet, including changes:
(a) to the classes or types;
(b) to the interior configurations; or
(c) which may reduce the journey time capabilities,
of any rolling stock vehicles specified in the Train Fleet.
So cannot change seating capacity (including classes), cannot reduce journey time capabilities (eg isolating an engine), doesn’t even appear to be allowed temporarily anymore. It also kills off any temporary declassification of first class.

Chapter 4.3 The Rolling stock
2.2 During the Contract Period, the Operator shall advise the Secretary of State of any rolling stock vehicles damaged beyond economic repair or likely to be unavailable for service for a period of three (3) consecutive Reporting Periods or more.
Any unit not available for 3 reporting periods has to be advised to Secretary of State, presumably so can’t have unrepaired units that DfT doesn’t know about, and therefore can’t decide if they need a replacement.

Chapter 4.3 The Rolling stock
2.4 The Secretary of State may (by Variation or Business Plan Revision) require the Operator to:
(a) change the composition of the Train Fleet during the term of this Contract;
(b) sub-let some of its Train Fleet to another Train Operator or to sub-lease a Train Fleet from another Train Operator;
(c) procure modifications to the Train Fleet and to manage any modification programme subject to payment of the Operator’s reasonable costs by the Secretary of State or a relevant third party; and/or
(d) work in collaboration with the Secretary of State to identify and secure additional or replacement rolling stock vehicles during the term of this Contract in which case the Secretary of State may require the Operator to set the specification of such rolling stock, subject to the Secretary of State’s prior written consent.
Trains can be modified, an by agreement additional trains can be sourced, so those who have said can’t have extra rolling stock are wrong, just means the GWR team are feeble at negotiating.

 
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Benjwri

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So cannot change seating capacity (including classes), cannot reduce journey time capabilities (eg isolating an engine), doesn’t even appear to be allowed temporarily anymore. It also kills off any temporary declassification of first class.
They can. they just can't do it without asking. You latter go on to argue the exact same wording means they can do something.
so those who have said can’t have extra rolling stock are wrong, just means the GWR team are feeble at negotiating.
No one every said they were blocked in the contract from getting extra rolling stock, but as you yourself have said they require permission to do so, and it has been made very clear that they will not be getting that. It has been mentioned numerous times TOCs have been given almost unrealistic targets on budgets to cut, and we have heard some TOCs have had to propose entire lines being cut. That GWR has managed to get away with persuading the government to let them drop the Class 769s to make make up a fairly significant amount of the cuts they need to make is pretty good negotiating I'd say. With the current political climate you could have the best negotiating team on the planet and you wouldn't be getting new rolling stock.
 

Clarence Yard

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(GWR) FG have the reputation of being very good when it comes to rolling stock contracts and employ one of the best legal firms (Burges Salmon) in the commercial contract field.

But, because of the issue of continuing cost liability on the Secretary of State, the DfT always have had a tight rein on rolling stock matters. If you further on in the NRC, on pages 355 to 358, you can see how they like to control the TOCs.

In practise, you need to keep them onside when you go to a ROSCO for more stock. They have the final say so you don’t want to waste time with the ROSCO if you are not going to get authorisation. The ROSCO will usually ask you if you have DfT approval to negotiate, anyway.

Quite often you also find out that the DfT hold separate meetings with the ROSCO to discuss the contract you have negotiated. Those usually revolves around price and specification matters.
 

py_megapixel

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Had a refurbished unit - 165111 - today.

The whole thing feels a lot brighter and less dated now that FirstGroup's brand colours aren't splattered everywhere.

The new flat-cloth seat colours look nice (and I do quite like GWR's colour scheme) but if Northern's are anything to go by, moquette would have been better for longevity.

The old flooring is just getting nasty by this point and I am extremely glad they're replacing it, though they will also have to clean it properly - especially since they've gone for a light colour!

First Class was marked clearly on the outside. I didn't check on the inside

TrainFX was working, but only barely. It missed several announcements and the displays weren't updating properly. (I'm assuming this wasn't touched during the refurb though).

The Wi-Fi didn't work.

Overall a vast improvement in my opinion, but with some minor issues that need to be ironed out if possible.
 

FGW_DID

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Deepgreen

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I travelled on a couple of 165s yesterday to and from Gatwick. Both unrefurbished and in a terrible state. First class had markings and anti-macassars but was full of 'standards' (students, etc.) without the guard bothering. Can't blame the crews as they must be fed up with the appalling failure of GWR to provide signage in the refurbished units, making it impossible to know what is going on with first class for them and the passengers. I have complained to GWR - there's no excuse for proper signage not being applied, but they have a lot of form in this regard. They should have taken the opportunity with the refurbs to apply bold yelllow external stripes as well, along the lines of the 769s in GWR livery, but haven't bothered with that either. A real mess. When I receive the usual pointless stock reply from GWR I'll be writing to Mark Hopwood personally. I used to think Southern's attitude to its first class provision was the worst I could expect to encounter, but this is far, far worse. By wilfully putting newly-refurbished units into service without any marked first class (i.e. not actually providing the facility in any meaningful sense) while advertising it, and charging the relevant fares, they are surely in breach of trading standards/contract.


BTW, while at Gatwick, this huge illuminated sign caught my eye - where exactly is 'Gatwick South' station, I wonder?! Very misleading and I imagine some passengers unfamiliar with the airport will be searching for a non-existent station - shame on GX.

But I'm sure you can. With enough will and money, better materials could be used. Treadmaster manufacture many different types of flooring and have done for years - indeed the previous incarnation for FGW was both non slip and easy to clean*, and being a darker colour at least did a better job at attempting to hide the dirt better. Sadly, as @Clarence Yard eludes to, a more expensive better wearing flooring probably was available but with the DfT allowing funding for a more more restrained refresh, a cheaper version was no doubt selected instead. It's certainly not holding up so well in the 150/2s which often look dirtier than they should be.

*Funny enough I actually have some in our garage left over from one of the various refurbishment projects over the years.
Yes, obviously dark colours show less (dark) dirt, but the fact is that anti-slip properties require indentations (roughness) by definition and, also by definition, rough surfaces are harder to clean. I'm not saying they can't be cleaned; it's just harder/more time-consuming.
 

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RailWonderer

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BTW, while at Gatwick, this huge illuminated sign caught my eye - where exactly is 'Gatwick South' station, I wonder?! Very misleading and I imagine some passengers unfamiliar with the airport will be searching for a non-existent station - shame on GX.
The station is adjacent to the south terminal though since there is north station it is not proper to call it the south station.
I travelled on a couple of 165s yesterday to and from Gatwick. Both unrefurbished and in a terrible state. First class had markings and anti-macassars but was full of 'standards' (students, etc.) without the guard bothering.
I've been on the North Downs a few times this past year and I've never had a refurbed 165.
By wilfully putting newly-refurbished units into service without any marked first class (i.e. not actually providing the facility in any meaningful sense) while advertising it, and charging the relevant fares, they are surely in breach of trading standards/contract.
Other operators sell first class tickets even on a route where stock may turn up without first class. You would be able to get a refund of the difference and tell GWR that first was declassified or not provided on the unit you travelled on. If they say it was refurbished with first class you can say the guard did not enforce it and that you want a refund but my problem with GWR is it's too ambiguous and there is a chance they can be petty about it if they aren't willing.

On GA when a 745/1 or a 755 without first class turns up in lieu of a 745/0 first class customers get a refund (though GA has made more effort to put first class stock on the Norwich IC as it was paying out a lot of customers).
 

Deepgreen

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The station is adjacent to the south terminal though since there is north station it is not proper to call it the south station.

I've been on the North Downs a few times this past year and I've never had a refurbed 165.

Other operators sell first class tickets even on a route where stock may turn up without first class. You would be able to get a refund of the difference and tell GWR that first was declassified or not provided on the unit you travelled on. If they say it was refurbished with first class you can say the guard did not enforce it and that you want a refund but my problem with GWR is it's too ambiguous and there is a chance they can be petty about it if they aren't willing.

On GA when a 745/1 or a 755 without first class turns up in lieu of a 745/0 first class customers get a refund (though GA has made more effort to put first class stock on the Norwich IC as it was paying out a lot of customers).
I think there's a big difference between an occasional train appearing without first class where it's advertised and a whole dedicated fleet being turned out from refurbishment and put back into service with no labelling, and therefore effectively no first class. The problem is that too many TOCs appear less concerned about clear signage than a 'designer' livery. GWR's green livery is good, but their design philosophy was to avoid 'spoiling' it with, for example, bold yellow stripes for first class (used universally for decades before) until they apparently saw sense with their 769s, which do have the bold yellow stripes, but which won't see service! Instead the 'Turbos' (and others) have a pointlessly-faint grey pencil line above the wndows and a '1' on a door, partially obscured by the grey vinyl on the door window. The refurbishment should have seen the "Turbos' given the class 769-style external treatment and proper, clear internal signage. The ridiculous saga of first class being advertised in one timetable then removed in the following one, and then re-instated again, has just added to the mess GWR have created.
 

RailWonderer

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I think there's a big difference between an occasional train appearing without first class where it's advertised and a whole dedicated fleet being turned out from refurbishment and put back into service with no labelling, and therefore effectively no first class. The problem is that too many TOCs appear less concerned about clear signage than a 'designer' livery. GWR's green livery is good, but their design philosophy was to avoid 'spoiling' it with, for example, bold yellow stripes for first class (used universally for decades before) until they apparently saw sense with their 769s, which do have the bold yellow stripes, but which won't see service! Instead the 'Turbos' (and others) have a pointlessly-faint grey pencil line above the wndows and a '1' on a door, partially obscured by the grey vinyl on the door window. The refurbishment should have seen the "Turbos' given the class 769-style external treatment and proper, clear internal signage. The ridiculous saga of first class being advertised in one timetable then removed in the following one, and then re-instated again, has just added to the mess GWR have created.
GWR does need to be consistent. Anything not intercity or IET operated should have no first class (or declassified) and that's that. The anomaly of the North Downs having first class as a local service is stupid unless there is a core of passengers that will pay for first on the route and it's not overcrowded.
 

Deepgreen

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GWR does need to be consistent. Anything not intercity or IET operated should have no first class (or declassified) and that's that. The anomaly of the North Downs having first class as a local service is stupid unless there is a core of passengers that will pay for first on the route and it's not overcrowded.
There is a core that will going to and from Gatwick, but there needs to be; a) a reasonable first class experience, and b) consistency in provision (i.e. not removed in one timetable, back the next, ad infinitum. It really is not hard to provide proper labelling, especially when carrying out a refurbishment. FGW/GWR have been awful at this for many years.
 
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165106 should be next candidate for refresh.

It doesn't look like 5Q74 has run and 165106 is on the Windsor branch today (according to RTT) so it appears that the moves have been postponed, perhaps due to the weather related disruption?
 

Snow1964

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Quick update on my letter to my MP about short formations (including some photos of severe crowding), on 165, 166, 158 trains. Have now received a reply from my MP that my comments are being passed to Huw Merriman.

So now know the Minister at DfT (or his staff) will know about the Wessex overcrowding. Just need to wait for a reply to my points raised, and if anything is done about it.
 

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