Autumn refresh for GWR Class 165/166 Turbos

[Nammer]

Has the refreshed 166 unit had any work done on its small toilet? The majority of time I travel on 166s these seem to be out of use. I recall someone saying it's due to availability of parts? One unit I travelled on recently seems to have had an updated toilet fitted (207 I think)?

 

[RPI]

Has the refreshed 166 unit had any work done on its small toilet? The majority of time I travel on 166s these seem to be out of use. I recall someone saying it's due to availability of parts? One unit I travelled on recently seems to have had an updated toilet fitted (207 I think)?

There was a period where literally every 166 seemed to have the small toilet locked out, but lately I've noticed several of them have been fixed and usable

 

[Mike Machin]

Whatever is done to the 165 and 166 fleet, they are still entirely unsuitable for long-distance regional express services.
Nearly 60 years ago the Portsmouth to Cardiff route was operated by new purpose-built inter-city dmus, followed by loco-hauled stock with a buffet car.
Back then it would have been inconceivable that the route would one day be operated by clapped-out suburban trains, with 2+3 seating.

 

[Snow1964]

Whatever is done to the 165 and 166 fleet, they are still entirely unsuitable for long-distance regional express services.
Nearly 60 years ago the Portsmouth to Cardiff route was operated by new purpose-built inter-city dmus, followed by loco-hauled stock with a buffet car.
Back then it would have been inconceivable that the route would one day be operated by clapped-out suburban trains, with 2+3 seating.

There was about 4 years where pairs of 3H DEMUs were used, although class 31 loco hauled trains replaced them.

But I totally agree that neither 165 or 166 was designed to used on regional services of over 3 hour. And the so called facelift is more of a minor spruce up

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Whatever is done to the 165 and 166 fleet, they are still entirely unsuitable for long-distance regional express services.
Nearly 60 years ago the Portsmouth to Cardiff route was operated by new purpose-built inter-city dmus, followed by loco-hauled stock with a buffet car.
Back then it would have been inconceivable that the route would one day be operated by clapped-out suburban trains, with 2+3 seating.

I mean I travel the route in its entirety each way every month, and I honestly think it’s pretty luxurious in the former first class section, which is far from always full as some may think.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Whatever is done to the 165 and 166 fleet, they are still entirely unsuitable for long-distance regional express services.
Nearly 60 years ago the Portsmouth to Cardiff route was operated by new purpose-built inter-city dmus, followed by loco-hauled stock with a buffet car.
Back then it would have been inconceivable that the route would one day be operated by clapped-out suburban trains, with 2+3 seating.

You’re conveniently missing out the years when this route was run by 3H thumper DMUs with 3+2 seating and non corridor so most of the train didn’t have access to a toilet then?

It’s also worth pointing out 50% of services on the route are booked for class 158s.

 

[Class172]

I mean I travel the route in its entirety each way every month, and I honestly think it’s pretty luxurious in the former first class section, which is far from always full as some may think.

Agreed, the declassified first class section is a pleasant place to sit.

For those that dislike 165/166s, the Cardiff-Portsmouth route that they operate on may be relatively long distance but it also caters for significant short flows along the Bristol-Bath-Westbury axis, where the layout of the Turbos deals well with the churn at stations.

 

[GWVillager]

I mean I travel the route in its entirety each way every month, and I honestly think it’s pretty luxurious in the former first class section, which is far from always full as some may think.

It’s hardly luxurious, I still vastly prefer a 158. But I think this is missing the point. The vast majority of people do not sit there, and thus have to put up with a truly unacceptable travelling environment.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

truly unacceptable travelling environment.

Hyperbole :P Try the Northern 150 in the adjacent platform on a 5 hour Carmarthen Manchester service.

I’ll add that 50% of Portsmouths are now booked 158 again.

 

[GWVillager]

Hyperbole :P Try the Northern 150 in the adjacent platform on a 5 hour Carmarthen Manchester service.

I’ll add that 50% of Portsmouths are now booked 158 again.

I’ll have to confirm this, but I was reading in the latest issue of Today’s Railways that only 43% of services are run as 158s.

I’m certainly not denying that the TfW 150 situation is horrendous, I have to contend with it regularly, but at least there’s a plan to sort it out. Portsmouth to Cardiff Turbos really are unacceptable, I’ve spent far too many journeys standing in sweltering heat amongst luggage strewn across the gangway, with passengers clearly in an uncomfortable position. It’s not hyperbole (at least for me!), it’s one of the few routes I actively avoid, which is a shame as, like you, I have to travel the full length semi-frequently. The refresh has done nothing in this regard, if anything I think the travelling environment is less pleasant.

 

[Phillipimo]

I’ll add that 50% of Portsmouths are now booked 158 again.

Looking at Realtimetrains today for Portsmouth to Bristol.
6 3-car services
8 4-car services
2 5-car services

Considering for many years all trains were 3 cars this does seem to be an improvement.

 

[Snow1964]

It’s also worth pointing out 50% of services on the route are booked for class 158s.

I’ll add that 50% of Portsmouths are now booked 158 again.

What happens on paper (50%) is not always the reality

As an example, todays service is 5 trains of 165 or 166 and 3 of 158

I’ll have to confirm this, but I was reading in the latest issue of Today’s Railways that only 43% of services are run as 158s.

Personal observation suggests nearer 40% than 50%, which fits in with their 43%

So need to get away from myth that half are 158s, (even if that is official view). But even if they were, also means 50% aren't.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

So need to get away from myth that half are 158s, (even if that is official view). But even if they were, also means 50% aren't.

Good. The route would be full and standing.

 

[GWVillager]

Looking at Realtimetrains today for Portsmouth to Bristol.
6 3-car services
8 4-car services
2 5-car services

Considering for many years all trains were 3 cars this does seem to be an improvement.

Are there any route specific passenger statistics? Trains certainly feel busier post pandemic, in my experience at least.

Good. The route would be full and standing.

It already is full and standing. 4 coach 158s can deal with crowds better than 3 coach 166s, after all the middle seats see very little use. However, we’re drifting off topic.


Is the refresh seeing the carpet replaced or is it remaining as the new type installed a few years ago?

 

[The exile]

Are there any route specific passenger statistics? Trains certainly feel busier post pandemic, in my experience at least.


It already is full and standing. 4 coach 158s can deal with crowds better than 3 coach 166s, after all the middle seats see very little use. However, we’re drifting off topic.


Is the refresh seeing the carpet replaced or is it remaining as the new type installed a few years ago?

Given the state of the carpet in some of the unrefurbished ones, I hope they’re being replaced - even if it is by the same design!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I’ll have to confirm this, but I was reading in the latest issue of Today’s Railways that only 43% of services are run as 158s.

43% is incorrect.

Here is the booked Mon - Fri allocations on this route, as you will see it is an exact 50:50 split between 158 and 16X (which isn’t surprising as there is 8 diagrams on this route of which 4 are 158s and 4 are 16Xs.

Cardiff / Bristol - Portsmouth:

158: 1F03, 1F05, 1F09, 1F15, 1F19, 1F21, 1F25, 1D91, 1F35 (9)

166: 1F01, 1F07, 1F11, 1F13, 1F17, 1F23, 1F27, 1F29, 1F23 (9)

Portsmouth - Bristol / Cardiff:

158: 1F02, 1F08, 1F12, 1F14, 1F18, 1F24, 1F28, 1F30, 1F34 (9)

166: 1F04, 1F06, 1F10, 1F16, 1F20, 1F22, 1F26, 1F32, 2M95 (9)

 

[GWVillager]

43% is incorrect.

Here is the booked Mon - Fri allocations on this route, as you will see it is an exact 50:50 split between 158 and 16X (which isn’t surprising as there is 8 diagrams on this route of which 4 are 158s and 4 are 16Xs.

Cardiff / Bristol - Portsmouth:

158: 1F03, 1F05, 1F09, 1F15, 1F19, 1F21, 1F25, 1D91, 1F35 (9)

166: 1F01, 1F07, 1F11, 1F13, 1F17, 1F23, 1F27, 1F29, 1F23 (9)

Portsmouth - Bristol / Cardiff:

158: 1F02, 1F08, 1F12, 1F14, 1F18, 1F24, 1F28, 1F30, 1F34 (9)

166: 1F04, 1F06, 1F10, 1F16, 1F20, 1F22, 1F26, 1F32, 2M95 (9)

Indeed it's a 50:50 split when booked, but I believe the 43% figure is taken from what actually ran, which matters a lot more than what theoretically should run.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So need to get away from myth that half are 158s, (even if that is official view). But even if they were, also means 50% aren't.

It isn’t a myth, see above.

 

[REVUpminster]

Reading all the above I think I would take the 3 car 158s from Exeter and replace them with 3 car 165s for the Devon Metro routes clearing them as far as Axminster.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Indeed it's a 50:50 split when booked, but I believe the 43% figure is taken from what actually ran.

It depends which day you look at. If you look at it today on RTT it’s an exact split.

Reading all the above I think I would take the 3 car 158s from Exeter and replace them with 3 car 165s for the Devon Metro routes clearing them as far as Axminster.

Why? A 3 car 158 is not a suitable replacement for a 3 car turbo on Cardiff - Portsmouth, there’s insufficient capacity which is why they were replaced in the first place!

Exeter depot doesn’t do turbo maintenance, but it’s home to the 158s 3 cars.

Also you’d need to clear 16x all the way to Cornwall as some of the Exeter 158 workings go all the way to Penzance…

 

[GWVillager]

It depends which day you look at. If you look at it today on RTT it’s an exact split.

Well of course, but it's an averaged figure. You can't exactly say that, for example, the situation with TPE is/has been fine because the 17:19 Lime St - Cleethorpes is running. Again, though, we are some way off topic - I do think this could warrant its own thread, shall we start one?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Looking at Realtimetrains today for Portsmouth to Bristol.
6 3-car services
8 4-car services
2 5-car services

Considering for many years all trains were 3 cars this does seem to be an improvement.

Ooh look an exact 50:50 split between 158s and 16X as booked…

 

[vicbury]

I’ll have to confirm this, but I was reading in the latest issue of Today’s Railways that only 43% of services are run as 158s.

I’m certainly not denying that the TfW 150 situation is horrendous, I have to contend with it regularly, but at least there’s a plan to sort it out. Portsmouth to Cardiff Turbos really are unacceptable, I’ve spent far too many journeys standing in sweltering heat amongst luggage strewn across the gangway, with passengers clearly in an uncomfortable position. It’s not hyperbole (at least for me!), it’s one of the few routes I actively avoid, which is a shame as, like you, I have to travel the full length semi-frequently. The refresh has done nothing in this regard, if anything I think the travelling environment is less pleasant.

The 158s are also unacceptable. Air conditioning usually broken. Absurdly slow to board and disembark. Far worse to be on when crowded and having to stand. The only better thing is the seating arrangement but I'd rather have a Turbo any day.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

43% is incorrect.

Here is the booked Mon - Fri allocations on this route, as you will see it is an exact 50:50 split between 158 and 16X (which isn’t surprising as there is 8 diagrams on this route of which 4 are 158s and 4 are 16Xs.

Cardiff / Bristol - Portsmouth:

158: 1F03, 1F05, 1F09, 1F15, 1F19, 1F21, 1F25, 1D91, 1F35 (9)

166: 1F01, 1F07, 1F11, 1F13, 1F17, 1F23, 1F27, 1F29, 1F23 (9)

Portsmouth - Bristol / Cardiff:

158: 1F02, 1F08, 1F12, 1F14, 1F18, 1F24, 1F28, 1F30, 1F34 (9)

166: 1F04, 1F06, 1F10, 1F16, 1F20, 1F22, 1F26, 1F32, 2M95 (9)

A very generous compromise considering all were planned to be 166s once upon a time.

 

[Mikey C]

The ideal train for the route would be a Turbostar. 2+2 seating, air con, wide doors.

If only they'd built a few more...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The ideal train for the route would be a Turbostar. 2+2 seating, air con, wide doors.

If only they'd built a few more...

Well, by that logic you’d be looking at getting TfW to run it and have them order more 197s. Swansea - Manchester, merged with the Swanline service, with 2+2 seating, air con, wide doors as you say.

Dangerously speculative now though, so I won’t say anymore on that myself. Any more on the return of the 2nd (3rd if you count 205) refurbished 166?

 

[Class172]

The ideal train for the route would be a Turbostar. 2+2 seating, air con, wide doors.

If only they'd built a few more...

There was a time where that may been the case, presumably in the form of 4-car 172s, as there was once a plan to procure replacement stock for the route.

(Details)

Cardiff to Portsmouth New Trains Bid
First Great Western, is putting forward a business case to the Department for Transport for re-equipping the Cardiff to Portsmouth (via Bristol and Bath) service with a new fleet of 11 four-carriage trains. These new trains, similar to Class 170 design, will add significant capacity, improve the quality and performance of services and be a major step towards delivering a ‘Greater Bristol Metro’ network.

The new trains will allow existing Class 158 units to cascade down for use on other local services. The West of England Partnership support First Great Western in their bid for new trains and a letter has been sent to the rail minister.

 

[Snow1964]

Looking at Realtimetrains today for Portsmouth to Bristol.
6 3-car services
8 4-car services
2 5-car services

Considering for many years all trains were 3 cars this does seem to be an improvement.

Ooh look an exact 50:50 split between 158s and 16X as booked…

Clearly yesterdays debate jinxed it

Today (from realtimetrains) from Portsmouth towards Bristol
8 3car, 6 4car, 2 5car.

So half trains only 3car, and average formation length of 3.6 cars

I need convincing that booked formations are far too frequently not adhered to, inevitably shortened, rarely lengthened.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I need convincing that booked formations are far too frequently not adhered to, inevitably shortened, rarely lengthened.

The issues around the GWR DMU fleet and why shortforms happen is well documented. There is no immediate solution until some other DMUs become available for lease.

 

[Snow1964]

The issues around the GWR DMU fleet and why shortforms happen is well documented. There is no immediate solution until some other DMUs become available for lease.

Totally agree, but having booked formations that they can't achieve multiple times a week, suggests need to review what is booked, if can't add to the stock.

It needs to be better explained why they insist of having booked formations at a level that depots can't match, rather than setting the formations at a consistently achievable level. The whole purpose of the 4car workings was supposed to be to avoid short formations, it has clearly failed in that objective. Having no immediate solution doesn't mean indefinite attempting to muddle through which appears to be current solution.