Avanti explains oxenholme incident

[joebassman]

Is the executive director's response valid that passangers should have reboarded the train for Pentrith for replacement transport or were the passangers justified for staying at Oxenholme?

This was the main comments of the CE Natasha Grice

The train manager said that the train would continue to Penrith, where the passengers could arrange transport home. This caused anger until a National Rail worker arrived with a key.

"There should have been a 'not to stop' order issued for Oxenholme, but unfortunately the Train Manager and Driver were not made aware of this instruction. This is an extremely rare situation.

"The Train Manager requested the passengers to reboard the train for travel onto the next station - Penrith - for rail replacement transport.

"Unfortunately, only some of the customers adhered to the Train Manager's instruction. While the majority complied - a minority of people refused to reboard the service and instead looked to exit the station by their own means."

A 'minority' of passengers left station at their intended stop

AVANTI West Coast (AWC) has responded to the incident at Oxenholme station where the passengers were locked in.

www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk

 

[zwk500]

Is the executive director's response valid that passangers should have reboarded the train for Pentrith for replacement transport or were the passangers justified for staying at Oxenholme?

It's a bit of both. From the railway's perspective, it would have been better for them to have reboarded the train however from a passenger's perspective I can completely understand why they refused to do so.

Also of note is that Avanti accepted that the ultimate problem here was the failure to communicate the Not-to-Stop order. They do downplay it a bit in their letter, and the nnwspaper doesn't directly quote an apology which is a bit poor (although it's entirely possible the letter does have one).

 

[Ibex]

Why do they lock the station up when it's unstaffed? There are hundreds of unstaffed stations across the country and trains call there without issue? I'm sure Avanti call at Lichfield Trent Valley and Tamworth outside of the staffing hours (maybe Sandwell & Dudley too?), what's different at Oxenholme?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why do they lock the station up when it's unstaffed? There are hundreds of unstaffed stations across the country and trains call there without issue? I'm sure Avanti call at Lichfield Trent Valley and Tamworth outside of the staffing hours (maybe Sandwell & Dudley too?), what's different at Oxenholme?

Probably just convention, but (unlike Lancaster if that wasn't locked up) I really can't see a crime issue developing, it's literally in the middle of a field.

 

[Horizon22]

Control communications ultimately broke down then regarding the not to call order, which is not the first time (and indeed is often the case) communications (or lack thereof) have been critical to the development of a larger incident.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Trouble is, depending upon how bad the disruption is, it can be very difficult for communications to be passed. If a member of station staff forgets to pass a message on for example

 

[Horizon22]

Trouble is, depending upon how bad the disruption is, it can be very difficult for communications to be passed. If a member of station staff forgets to pass a message on for example

You pass it directly to a guard via phone or even driver via GSMR, in extremis if you can't reach the station. It is never impossible; tricky at times yes, but there are ways to do it.

I would agree stations are the normal way and it seems this was missed, although no information in the comment above about how or why.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I didn't even think Pendolinos could run without dispatch due to their length, so I'm surprised Oxenholme was even unstaffed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't even think Pendolinos could run without dispatch due to their length, so I'm surprised Oxenholme was even unstaffed.

There's always the fallback option of the guard walking down the train closing each door, then locking, then walking down the train again to check nothing is trapped. Not as easy without porter buttons (as most South East stock has but not others) but possible.

The train wasn't meant to have stopped.

 

[Bevan Price]

It's a bit of both. From the railway's perspective, it would have been better for them to have reboarded the train however from a passenger's perspective I can completely understand why they refused to do so.

Also of note is that Avanti accepted that the ultimate problem here was the failure to communicate the Not-to-Stop order. They do downplay it a bit in their letter, and the nnwspaper doesn't directly quote an apology which is a bit poor (although it's entirely possible the letter does have one).

Yes - if you were a passenger, wpuld you trust the railway to ensure that - after midnight - there would be enough taxis at Penrith to take them all back to Oxenholme ?

 

[Peter Sarf]

It would take a lot of persuasion to get me back on the train. My approach is I am where I want to be and it cannot be that hard to get out. My first thoughts would be to perceive the risk of failure being greater relying on alternative transport back from Penrith. I would even expect to be greeted with incredulity or indifference at Penrith. Better have my fate in my own hands and have more chance of getting home on time. Given time I am not sure I would re-consider but if I did by then the train is long gone.

 

[Jimini]

If I'd have been in that situation -- having arrived at my intended destination -- I'm far from sure that I could be coerced to get back on a train that will take me 31 miles further north, and hope for road transport to be laid on. Sod that!

 

[Brooke]

As a passenger, I absolutely would not trust a railway that has already significantly delayed me, and then shown it’s lack of organization by accidentally stopping the train in a closed station, to do anything reliably further up the track.

Furthermore, considering that the railway has delayed me, why would I volunteer yet more of my valuable time to go up to Penrith for their convenience, when I’m now close to home.

Blaming the passengers even in part is not a particularly credible response.

 

[Paul_10]

As I mentioned in the original thread. If they are not planning to stop at Oxenholme, why is Penrith a better idea to arrange taxis instead of Lancaster? Lancaster is a shorter distance, the passengers would arrive sooner than staying on the train to Penrith and then making the road journey back down south from where they came from.

Plus this was just before midnight, why in disruption was that too late for the staff at Oxenholme to stay around but not late enough for the staff at Penrith to stick around.

 

[Surreytraveller]

You pass it directly to a guard via phone or even driver via GSMR, in extremis if you can't reach the station. It is never impossible; tricky at times yes, but there are ways to do it.

I would agree stations are the normal way and it seems this was missed, although no information in the comment above about how or why.

Indeed, but if control are under a belief the message is passed, they are not to know any different

 

[Bantamzen]

And to think all of this could have been avoided with one simple phone call....

"Evening, just to let you know the last service out of Euston could be a couple of hours late by the time it gets to you. And chance someone could hang on until it gets there?"

"Sorry mate, gotta get off at my rostered time, the missus will kill me if I'm late!"

"Not a problem, do me a favour and leave the gates open so the punters can get home please"

"Sure thing"

Taa-daa!! Problem solved....

 

[The exile]

Or - how simple it is for that to go wrong: First three elements as before, then:

"Well, I book off half an hour before Freda - but I'll tell her."

"Thanks"

"Freda. The last down's going to be very late - so don't lock up when you leave. I'm off now" (As heavy freight thunders through)

Half an hour later...

(Freda) "Don't know why Joe doesn't trust me to lock up. He always thinks I'm going to forget. I never do. Last time it happened it was him.... At least I think that's what he said. No-one I can ask now. Ah well.... "

 

[TUC]

This does seem to highlight a lack of understanding about human nature. Even allowing for the lack of communication of the 'not to stop' order, would anyone already on a platform in the town they are travelling to choose to get back on a train and travel 31 miles to get transport back to the same place where they now are?

 

[ValleyLines142]

As I mentioned in the original thread. If they are not planning to stop at Oxenholme, why is Penrith a better idea to arrange taxis instead of Lancaster? Lancaster is a shorter distance, the passengers would arrive sooner than staying on the train to Penrith and then making the road journey back down south from where they came from.

Plus this was just before midnight, why in disruption was that too late for the staff at Oxenholme to stay around but not late enough for the staff at Penrith to stick around.

I guess, because of how late it was at this point, that there may not have been any more departures south, hence the option to continue north.

However, in spite of that, surely the train would have just departed Oxenholme and it would have been too late to have re-joined the train northbound to Penrith to arrange road transport back down south? I haven't read the article so I'm unsure.

 

[Adoarable]

I guess, because of how late it was at this point, that there may not have been any more departures south, hence the option to continue north.

However, in spite of that, surely the train would have just departed Oxenholme and it would have been too late to have re-joined the train northbound to Penrith to arrange road transport back down south? I haven't read the article so I'm unsure.

In the previous thread on this matter it was discussed that the train was delayed at the station for some time while the situation was sorted out. With the station closed there was no dispatch staff so the train couldn’t have just left without the guard finding out what was going on. Indeed, the guard was the one asking the passengers to re-board the train.

 

[DanNCL]

If control aren’t sure who has passed on a message then they should pass it on themselves. Better for multiple people to have ended up passing on the same message than the message not reaching who it needs to.

 

[MotCO]

Why did the station staff go home if they knew that the last passenger train had not called? Or had they received the Not to Stop order, but not the train?

 

[AlterEgo]

This does seem to highlight a lack of understanding about human nature. Even allowing for the lack of communication of the 'not to stop' order, would anyone already on a platform in the town they are travelling to choose to get back on a train and travel 31 miles to get transport back to the same place where they now are?

I certainly wouldn't. I'd just break out of the station. I'm not going 31 miles north to travel 31 miles south to travel 9 inches between one side of a gate and another. Stupid, and the letter to the newspaper having a dig at those customers is bad too.

 

[zwk500]

Why did the station staff go home if they knew that the last passenger train had not called? Or had they received the Not to Stop order, but not the train?

We're retracing a lot of ground from the old thread and getting no closer to an answer.

 

[ValleyLines142]

In the previous thread on this matter it was discussed that the train was delayed at the station for some time while the situation was sorted out. With the station closed there was no dispatch staff so the train couldn’t have just left without the guard finding out what was going on. Indeed, the guard was the one asking the passengers to re-board the train.

I see, I didn't notice that.

 

[357]

Why did the station staff go home if they knew that the last passenger train had not called? Or had they received the Not to Stop order, but not the train?

Because, despite what our government think. It's not a legal requirement to work overtime.

When I worked stations, my station and other hubs had a night shift. Other stations had staff that went home 15 minutes after the last scheduled departure (at their own expense). This could explain why some stations are still open and others are locked shut.

No member of staff is going to lock a station if they know a train will be calling, clearly the message got to the station staff but not the traincrew.

After a number of incidents at my TOC with stop orders not being communicated correctly, or with paperwork not being to hand, on our GSMR we can now get the beep beep with "Contact Control" in the same way we have always been able to get "Contact Signaller".

 

[Peter Sarf]

As a passenger, I absolutely would not trust a railway that has already significantly delayed me, and then shown it’s lack of organization by accidentally stopping the train in a closed station, to do anything reliably further up the track.

Furthermore, considering that the railway has delayed me, why would I volunteer yet more of my valuable time to go up to Penrith for their convenience, when I’m now close to home.

Blaming the passengers even in part is not a particularly credible response.

After years of commuting I too have come to that conclusion. The number of times not believing what I am told but making my own guesses has worked out better.

As I mentioned in the original thread. If they are not planning to stop at Oxenholme, why is Penrith a better idea to arrange taxis instead of Lancaster? Lancaster is a shorter distance, the passengers would arrive sooner than staying on the train to Penrith and then making the road journey back down south from where they came from.

Plus this was just before midnight, why in disruption was that too late for the staff at Oxenholme to stay around but not late enough for the staff at Penrith to stick around.

Avanti not sorting things at Lancaster immediately suggests to me a lack of knowledge/control on the part of Avanti. Penrith is a reaction to discovering the problem at Oxenholme AFTER stopping there.

And to think all of this could have been avoided with one simple phone call....

"Evening, just to let you know the last service out of Euston could be a couple of hours late by the time it gets to you. And chance someone could hang on until it gets there?"

"Sorry mate, gotta get off at my rostered time, the missus will kill me if I'm late!"

"Not a problem, do me a favour and leave the gates open so the punters can get home please"

"Sure thing"

Taa-daa!! Problem solved....

I really believe lack of communication to passengers is a deeper problem. The railway actually does not even communicate with itself. I had three repeated experiences of guess work overcoming a lack of information in my travels at three different locations. Things will always go wrong but lack of information/communication is unforgivable.

I certainly wouldn't. I'd just break out of the station. I'm not going 31 miles north to travel 31 miles south to travel 9 inches between one side of a gate and another. Stupid, and the letter to the newspaper having a dig at those customers is bad too.

Exactly what I would do. The attitude of Avanti shows how far from reality Avanti are, passengers are not all idiots.

I would add that, sadly, it is the hapless staff on the front line that get the (angry) reaction from passengers. But those higher up in Avanti (for example) that are out of immediate reach of the inconvenienced "customers" need to to "feel" the problem.

 

[trainophile]

Don't Help Points have 24 hour coverage? Presumably a station the size of Oxenholme has one? If yes to both questions, someone could have called out a key holder to unlock the gates.

 

[Bantamzen]

I really believe lack of communication to passengers is a deeper problem. The railway actually does not even communicate with itself. I had three repeated experiences of guess work overcoming a lack of information in my travels at three different locations. Things will always go wrong but lack of information/communication is unforgivable.

Without wanting to dive too deeply into the murky waters of what-iffery, this could have ended up being a very serious incident if someone had ended up under a passing train. I know in the airline industry critical decisions and changes to plans are not instigated until everyone in the loop has been given the details, and everyone confirmed by reading said decisions back. Its by no means 100% perfect, but means that as many scenarios as possible have checks built into them to so that everyone should be aware of what is happening. I don't know if there is similar in the rail industry, but if not it might be something to consider. Yes it will mean more work, but it will also help reduce confused messaging when things need to be got right first time.

 

[zwk500]

Don't Help Points have 24 hour coverage? Presumably a station the size of Oxenholme has one? If yes to both questions, someone could have called out a key holder to unlock the gates.

By the time a key holder has been located and informed, got themselves ready and driven out to the station then most people would have probably taken measures into their own hands.