Avanti explains oxenholme incident

[northwichcat]

I think Tim Farron is the MP for Oxenholme. If one of his constituents complains, I'm sure he'll respond.

 

[DelW]

I think Tim Farron is the MP for Oxenholme. If one of his constituents complains, I'm sure he'll respond.

He's involved already - the letter in post 1 was reported as being sent to him, and the earlier thread on the incident referred to his being involved in getting the passengers released from the station.

 

[jfollows]

Constituency boundary (includes Oxenholme indeed) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westmorland_and_Lonsdale_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#/map/0):

 

[Clarence Yard]

It's classic WorstGroup - they never, ever take responsibility for their own shortcomings. It's always someone else to blame - the staff (e.g. comments on Avanti rest day working), the passengers (as in this case), or something/someone else (the old "dog ate my homework" excuses).

Nothing to do with FirstGroup and everything to do with an arrogant operator who has lost it on a number of fronts.

If a punter off your service gets locked in at a station it’s your fault, not the punters. You have a duty of care to get that punter from A to B, which includes getting them safely on and off railway premises. There can be no excuses.

One hopes a new MD can sort out some of the culture in that TOC.

 

[jfollows]

If I'd been one of the Oxenholme Thirty I'd be absolutely furious at the tone of that letter.

I agree.
To me, running a business is complex but not hard.
When I ran my own business I had two mantras:

1. Things go wrong, that's life, it's not about stopping things from going wrong but about how mistakes and problems are handled when they do.
2. Under-promise and over-deliver.

I had previously worked for an organisation which over-promised and under-delivered consistently, and it was frustrating and embarrassing.

Avanti has failed on (2) for a while now, but the response to this incident is a failing on (1) as well I think.

Not good.

 

[northwichcat]

I agree.
To me, running a business is complex but not hard.
When I ran my own business I had two mantras:

1. Things go wrong, that's life, it's not about stopping things from going wrong but about how mistakes and problems are handled when they do.
2. Under-promise and over-deliver.

I had previously worked for an organisation which over-promised and under-delivered consistently, and it was frustrating and embarrassing.

Avanti has failed on (2) for a while now, but the response to this incident is a failing on (1) as well I think.

Not good.

Avanti also need to remember they rely on business travellers for revenue and businesses rely on them to transport employees to meetings and other events in some of the biggest cities in the UK - London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow.

 

[DelW]

Just to capture this in case it hasn't been done elsewhere: (94 minutes late arriving in Oxenholme; 109 minutes late leaving).

Those times in the RTT table are interesting. When Avanti decided not to stop the service at Oxenholme (ignoring that they forgot to tell the train crew that), why were Oxenholme passengers not advised to get off at Lancaster? Surely it would be easier to get taxis in a medium sized city at 23:15 than in a small town after midnight?

According to Google maps, Lancaster to Oxenholme station is 20 miles and around 28 minutes driving time, compared with 32 miles and 34 minutes from Penrith. So passengers could theoretically have been back at Oxenholme station well before midnight, instead of an hour later at best, and with a lower taxi fare.

None of what Avanti did that night makes much sense, which makes it even worse that Ms Grice still blames the mess on the unfortunate passengers rather than her own organisation.

 

[jfollows]

Those times in the RTT table are interesting. When Avanti decided not to stop the service at Oxenholme (ignoring that they forgot to tell the train crew that), why were Oxenholme passengers not advised to get off at Lancaster? Surely it would be easier to get taxis in a medium sized city at 23:15 than in a small town after midnight?

According to Google maps, Lancaster to Oxenholme station is 20 miles and around 28 minutes driving time, compared with 32 miles and 34 minutes from Penrith. So passengers could theoretically have been back at Oxenholme station well before midnight, instead of an hour later at best, and with a lower taxi fare.

None of what Avanti did that night makes much sense, which makes it even worse that Ms Grice still blames the mess on the unfortunate passengers rather than her own organisation.

I don't think you're wrong, but I also think this was discussed in the original thread at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...t-night-16-08-22-passengers-locked-in.235892/, however this is now locked so if I'm wrong I apologise. I posted the RTT table here because I don't think it was in the original thread and - as a web link - it will expire and no longer be valid at some point soon.

For sure, I feel that Avanti made several mistakes here and their latest "explanation" appears to want to blame people other than themselves, which does not look good to me. I agree that, perhaps with the wisdom of hindsight to some extent, what was done at the time was not sensible.

 

[joebassman]

I don't understand why they couldn't have just held their hands up, admitted they had made a mistake and that they have learned lessons to prevent a similar incident.

Seems a common thing to me now days. Rather than just admit that we are all humans and can make mistakes just blame someone else.

A classic example being the BJ pepper pig incident. He didn't blame someone else but also woupd not admit to making a mistake.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't understand why they couldn't have just held their hands up, admitted they had made a mistake and that they have learned lessons to prevent a similar incident.

Seems a common thing to me now days. Rather than just admit that we are all humans and can make mistakes just blame someone else.

A classic example being the BJ pepper pig incident. He didn't blame someone else but also woupd not admit to making a mistake.

That is the telling thing. Avanti are not going to improve until they can accept their own shortcomings.

 

[Kendalian]

The train was held at Preston for 50 min (awaiting driver/TM?). I was keeping an eye on Avanti at the time (still am) and can confirm 100% that at the time the train was held at Preston it was on their website that the train would NOT be stopping at Oxenholme due to the late running. No mention of Penrith.
Big regret that I didn't screen save it at the exact time....
The station staff have had a lot of stick locally and wider for locking up and going home. They were told the train wasn't stopping. Not their fault.
Passengers/customers/inconveniences had already long missed the Windermere connection so why should they be expected to travel to Penrith? Think that was the TM trying to sort something on the hoof.
Even though it was on their own website that the train would not be stopping at Oxy, they managed not to inform the crew it seems. What a shambolic outfit they are.
Next question if I'd been a "customer" that night booked to Oxenholme, then why can't the train still stop? If no staff member can stay on (for a bonus/overtime) then tell them to leave the gates unlocked and the TM can self dispatch, time consuming as that is, as others have said.

MP's (including Mr F) are back tomorrow so let's watch and see....

 

[Taunton]

Ask yourself this: would Virgin have sent a letter than in effect blamed the passengers?

Having had a bit of contact with other branches of their brand, Branson is touchy-feely public persona, but razor-sharp on business matters. A "customer services director" writing a letter like that, in a high profile situation like this one, and which then got out into the public arena, would be out on their ear the next morning.

 

[AlterEgo]

Having had a bit of contact with other branches of their brand, Branson is touchy-feely public persona, but razor-sharp on business matters. A "customer services director" writing a letter like that which got out into the public arena would be out on their ear the next morning.

No they wouldn’t. I used to work for Virgin’s customer relations and that isn’t how things actually worked at Virgin.

 

[Taunton]

No they wouldn’t. I used to work for Virgin’s customer relations and that isn’t how things actually worked at Virgin.

Then things were not getting up to Branson. This one, with the national press and the MP onto it, would.

 

[AlterEgo]

Then things were not getting up to Branson. This one, with the national press and the MP onto it, would.

Virgin had truly excellent PR and loved to cultivate the myth that Branson would intervene in everything directly. They got a lot of mileage from that Virgin Atlantic “bad airline meal” complaint about 10-15 years ago, but the reality is VTWC was mostly a Stagecoach company when it came to the nuts and bolts and Branson had almost zero input or dealing with the train company.

The cultural issues on VTWC go a lot further back than the current incumbent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Virgin had truly excellent PR and loved to cultivate the myth that Branson would intervene in everything directly. They got a lot of mileage from that Virgin Atlantic “bad airline meal” complaint about 10-15 years ago, but the reality is VTWC was mostly a Stagecoach company when it came to the nuts and bolts and Branson had almost zero input or dealing with the train company.

The cultural issues on VTWC go a lot further back than the current incumbent.

The Coach K "messroom" was a fine example of one staff attitude problem they seemed unwilling to put the effort into fixing. I must admit I thought of Nelson from the Simpsons going "ha-ha" when Avanti turned that into the only 1st coach so they could no longer hog it to chat about how they hate their managers when they should be doing their job serving customers. (I am aware they are entitled to a break, but it should be one at a time so that the service can be provided consistently).

 

[thealexweb]

Reads as blaming the passengers for on the day mistakes/poor working practices. Absolutely tone deaf from Avanti.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reads as blaming the passengers for on the day mistakes/poor working practices. Absolutely tone deaf from Avanti.

Classic railway, really. The industry has a proper attitude problem at times. But Avanti's management seem some of the worst - utterly arrogant in the worst possible way, against the staff too e.g. with their false allegations about industrial action.

 

[MotCO]

Virgin had truly excellent PR and loved to cultivate the myth that Branson would intervene in everything directly. They got a lot of mileage from that Virgin Atlantic “bad airline meal” complaint about 10-15 years ago, but the reality is VTWC was mostly a Stagecoach company when it came to the nuts and bolts and Branson had almost zero input or dealing with the train company.

The cultural issues on VTWC go a lot further back than the current incumbent.

I know of someone who was personally phoned by Richard Branson after a complaint about a fight.

 

[philthetube]

Does anyone know if any passengers went to Penrith and how they got on if they did.

 

[DelayRepay]

One of the things I've not seen reported is what happened to any passengers who did re-board the train as requested. Assuming that some did, I would love to know if the promised fleet of taxis was waiting to greet them on arrival at Penrith. Anyone know?

 

[sonic2009]

So if the passengers were told to stay on until Penrith, are we right to assume that Penrith staff stayed on to wait? So why couldn't staff in Oxenholme do the same?

 

[Tetchytyke]

A lovely letter, blaming the passengers for not wanting to get back on a train and travel 30 miles, then ride 30 miles back in a taxi, in order to end up six inches from where they started.

Sums up Avanti. Come back Beardy, all is forgiven. Although, as @AlterEgo says, the problems far predate them.

I'm not sure I'd have trusted Avanti. In fact, from bitter past experience, I'd have put money on no taxis and no staff being available at Penrith.

 

[357]

So if the passengers were told to stay on until Penrith, are we right to assume that Penrith staff stayed on to wait? So why couldn't staff in Oxenholme do the same?

It could be that Penrith has a night shift and Oxenholme does not.

 

[TheEdge]

After a number of incidents at my TOC with stop orders not being communicated correctly, or with paperwork not being to hand, on our GSMR we can now get the beep beep with "Contact Control" in the same way we have always been able to get "Contact Signaller".

But no one seems to want to use GSM-R for all the powerful things it can do.

In my area they seem terrified of ever using berth triggered messages, I've never seen a Contact Control message, I've never seen a text message and I've never seen the fabled "Wait" with the actual reason which it can apparently do.

It could be used to actually deal with the issue of traincrew being the last to find out in these situations but people seem so terrified of it that it just ends up being a cab mounted SPT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure I'd have trusted Avanti. In fact, from bitter past experience, I'd have put money on no taxis and no staff being available at Penrith.

I would too. Lancaster (which does have plenty of taxis) was the place to do this. An on-call manager should have got in the car and gone there to manage it if necessary.

I too bet there were no taxis at Penrith.

 

[ComUtoR]

I've never seen a text message and I've never seen the fabled "Wait" with the actual reason which it can apparently do.

There were some case studies way back when GSMR was first conceived and it was decided that the standard 'WAIT' and 'CONTACT SIGNALLER' messages should be retained as part of an ease into the change to GSMR and to keep the standards simple. Text messages etc were deemed to be too complicated and potential distractions.

When I was first trained on GSMR you could dial any number you wanted but now, ours is blocked unless its in the phone book. I've always said that the railway is bad at technology. GSMR is just another example of wasted tech and a fear of change.

 

[Clip]

In Post #40 @Elecman helpfully confirms that the gate was locked with a “standard railway padlock”. [Takes me back to ‘37s’ (the key number, not the locomotive class) on the Southern decades ago.] Is there any reason why ‘guards’ aren’t issued with these for just such a situation (including Blackburn, Knutsford, etc.)?

Wouldnt the padlock be on the outside of the gate when the station staff lock it so the guard wouldnt be able to get close to it

 

[Tetchytyke]

It could be that Penrith has a night shift and Oxenholme does not.

I'd be surprised if the staffing arrangements at Penrith are any different- certainly the ticket office has shorter opening hours than Oxenholme.

 

[357]

I'd be surprised if the staffing arrangements at Penrith are any different- certainly the ticket office has shorter opening hours than Oxenholme.

National Rail website says both have full time staff available. Maybe there was a staff shortage at Oxenholme on this occasion