Avanti First Class 'sold out'

[Essexman]

On Saturday 25th November I tried to book a First Class ticket off peak return ticket (London to Stourbridge Town) using the 10.49 Avanti Euston – Glasgow (via Birmingham) Sunday 26th.

Avanti (and other websites) said that first class was sold out on this (and a number of other Avanti trains from Euston).

I booked on a later Manchester train with change at Nuneaton but boarded the 10.49 anyway. There were about five people in the (half) First Class coach.

Is this just a computer glitch or are Avanti limiting First Class ticket sales, maybe because they allocate so few seats to this at weekends?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this just a computer glitch or are Avanti limiting First Class ticket sales, maybe because they allocate so few seats to this at weekends?

Avanti are presently, like LNER, running with "fake compulsory reservations", so it's a combination of this and the very small number of first class seats.

The reason for the low occupancy will be a combination of unreservable seats (as some will just buy tickets at a non planner TVM like all WMT ones) and people just randomly picking a train as they don't know. The effect of this in Standard is minimal as there's so much of it.

 

[Llanigraham]

I had exactly the same last week trying to book tickets for a friend to Aberdeen when Avanti said there was nothing available in First.
Ended up booking via the TfW website with no problems, and got a seat reservation in First.

 

[Essexman]

Thanks
It's quite ridiculous. Avanti could have lost my first class ticket sale if I had believed that it was really sold out and not just booked on another train.
It's hard to book an open ticket that's not for a specific train now.

 

[ScotTrains]

A couple of months ago I noticed there weren't any first class tickets available for certain services originating from Glasgow (The 1840 and a few others) and Edinburgh (1852 and possibly a few others) on any day on any month.

I messaged Avanti a few weeks later and they replied thanking me of bringing this to their attention. Apparently the 1st class tickets hadn't been made available due to an 'IT issue'. They all appeared a day or two later.

I do wonder how many thousands Avanti lost because of this. Surely the 1st class catering staff must have wondered why their (normally busy) train was suddenly always empty in 1st!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm no fan of this fake compulsory reservations nonsense, but Avanti are beyond incompetent in how they are doing it. By contrast LNER at least seem to be doing it vaguely professionally.

 

[Haywain]

I do wonder how many thousands Avanti lost because of this.

Nothing at all - revenue goes directly to the Treasury.

 

[Trackman]

I'm no fan of this fake compulsory reservations nonsense, but Avanti are beyond incompetent in how they are doing it. By contrast LNER at least seem to be doing it vaguely professionally.

I think that sums it up very well!
I don't travel First with Avanti anymore unless it's paid for - when I do again I stumble across this problem when booking now and again. The whole thing should be a 2-minute job.

 

[Essexman]

I asked Avanti and got the following response -

'It is indeed the case that a limited amount of First Class tickets are available to buy for any service. Some are always reserved for walk-up passengers, and some are sold by Seatfrog and can be bid on for last-minute upgrades.'

So they are only selling a handful of first class tickets on many trains. What sort of business turns away premium customers?

 

[DelW]

Nothing at all - revenue goes directly to the Treasury.

And therein lies the reason why TOCs can't be bothered to sort out annoyances like this.

I asked Avanti and got the following response -

'It is indeed the case that a limited amount of First Class tickets are available to buy for any service. Some are always reserved for walk-up passengers, and some are sold by Seatfrog and can be bid on for last-minute upgrades.'

So they are only selling a handful of first class tickets on many trains. What sort of business turns away premium customers?

Erm, probably the sort of business that is funded entirely by taxpayers regardless of how badly it treats its customers?

 

[Brissle Girl]

So to paraphrase, “we keep a few tickets back to sell cheaply on Seatfrog rather than allowing passengers to pay the full price for them in advance”.

Have The Apprentice candidates been let loose in Avanti’s commercial department by any chance? Surely Seatfrog should only have any leftovers, and even then make sure some are held back for walk up sales.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I was waiting for a southbound Avanti (to get to Preston) at Lancaster on Monday (27th). The platform announcement said something to the effect of:

"you can only board this service if you have a reservation"

Bonkers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was waiting for a southbound Avanti (to get to Preston) at Lancaster on Monday (27th). The platform announcement said something to the effect of:

"you can only board this service if you have a reservation"

Bonkers.

You are probably missing the word "bicycle" from that. That announcement is made for any Avanti service announced by Anne.

 

[RAPC]

So to paraphrase, “we keep a few tickets back to sell cheaply on Seatfrog rather than allowing passengers to pay the full price for them in advance”.

Have The Apprentice candidates been let loose in Avanti’s commercial department by any chance? Surely Seatfrog should only have any leftovers, and even then make sure some are held back for walk up sales.

Ironically, Seatfrog get guaranteed seats on every service that Avanti open 1st Class ticketing for.

Avanti have fallen in to the trap that many of the hotel chains did about 10-15 years ago, by actively trying to maintain a premium price in their own direct sales, whilst undercutting themselves via opaque channels. Eventually they worked out that it was costing them money and most of the chains switched strategy to direct channels first, underpinned by best price guarantees.

As others have mentioned, with revenue going to the treasury, they are not trying to run the most commercially successful operation. I suspect that if senior leadership have any revenue targets, they will be focused on average revenue per seat directly sold, rather than overall by service. The whole model with Seatfrog, along with their direct pricing strategy is definitely trying to create some counter-intuitive behaviour.

 

[Grumpy Git]

You are probably missing the word "bicycle" from that. That announcement is made for any Avanti service announced by Anne.

This makes sense. The PA was awful.

 

[Essexman]

Another response from Avanti.

'I have taken note of your comments so that they can be considered by the relevant business areas when changes to ticket allocation are relevant. We currently feel that it is important to hold some tickets for walk-up passengers and those who want to upgrade at the station, and the Seatfrog upgrades are a great option to those who want to travel in First Class for a lower price. We believe most of our customers would agree having cheaper options for First Class travel is a positive rather than a negative.'

 

[voyagerdude220]

Another response from Avanti.

'I have taken note of your comments so that they can be considered by the relevant business areas when changes to ticket allocation are relevant. We currently feel that it is important to hold some tickets for walk-up passengers and those who want to upgrade at the station, and the Seatfrog upgrades are a great option to those who want to travel in First Class for a lower price. We believe most of our customers would agree having cheaper options for First Class travel is a positive rather than a negative.'

I've no idea if I'm right, but I'd be very surprised if many people decide to upgrade to First Class spontaneously on the day of travel. Even Standard Premium isn't that cheap in my opinion.
I'd agree if Avanti still offered Weekend First, as I always found it to be popular. I remember being on a Saturday afternoon Pendolino between Preston and London a few years ago and noticed that the Train Manager sold upgrades to most people in the carriage.

 

[JamesT]

Ironically, Seatfrog get guaranteed seats on every service that Avanti open 1st Class ticketing for.

Avanti have fallen in to the trap that many of the hotel chains did about 10-15 years ago, by actively trying to maintain a premium price in their own direct sales, whilst undercutting themselves via opaque channels. Eventually they worked out that it was costing them money and most of the chains switched strategy to direct channels first, underpinned by best price guarantees.

As others have mentioned, with revenue going to the treasury, they are not trying to run the most commercially successful operation. I suspect that if senior leadership have any revenue targets, they will be focused on average revenue per seat directly sold, rather than overall by service. The whole model with Seatfrog, along with their direct pricing strategy is definitely trying to create some counter-intuitive behaviour.

Aren’t there usually only a couple of Seatfrog seats available? That’s not going to have a massive effect on availability of First Class.

 

[Starmill]

Aren’t there usually only a couple of Seatfrog seats available? That’s not going to have a massive effect on availability of First Class.

There's only half a carriage of First Class at the weekend and some of that is non-reservable by anyone. So yes Seatfrog does have a significant effect.

Thanks
It's quite ridiculous. Avanti could have lost my first class ticket sale if I had believed that it was really sold out and not just booked on another train.
It's hard to book an open ticket that's not for a specific train now.

It's true that Avanti are clueless here, but also they do specifically say in their message some seats are for walk up passengers. If you have this again why not just book the ticket when you get to the station? Why did you want to book in advance anyway given you couldn't reserve a seat?

Nothing at all - revenue goes directly to the Treasury.

I think the post was questioning why such lost sales are being incurred in the first place though, and that's still very relevant regardless of what happens to the money after it gets to Avanti West Coast's account.

 

[Haywain]

I think the post was questioning why such lost sales are being incurred in the first place though, and that's still very relevant regardless of what happens to the money after it gets to Avanti West Coast's account.

Indeed, and it is not unfair to question this but it needs to be understood that this is not a company managing their own income and potential profit

 

[Deafdoggie]

I'm confused as to why they are saving seats for walk-up passengers, but set reservations to compulsory to make it appear that there's no room for walk-up passengers

 

[DarloRich]

So they are only selling a handful of first class tickets on many trains. What sort of business turns away premium customers?

Avanti aren't turning away premium customers. They have one/two first class carriages so few seats to sell but charge an enhanced rate for those seats. The problem is thier reservation arrangements for those places.

That aside, my question is why would you bother paying the enhanced price when you can upgrade to standard premium and enjoy most of the luxuries of FC travel for less money?

is a snack box really worth the extra cost?

 

[Crossover]

There's only half a carriage of First Class at the weekend and some of that is non-reservable by anyone. So yes Seatfrog does have a significant effect.

Why only half? (I am a bit out of touch with things - didn't realise they had done away with Weekend First, either!)

 

[Starmill]

Why only half? (I am a bit out of touch with things - didn't realise they had done away with Weekend First, either!)

On most Pendolino trains, the rest of what is sometimes First Class is now given over to Standard Premium at the weekend, except for coach K with the kitchen.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I'm confused as to why they are saving seats for walk-up passengers, but set reservations to compulsory to make it appear that there's no room for walk-up passengers

Because they are told to.

 

[Crossover]

On most Pendolino trains, the rest of what is sometimes First Class is now given over to Standard Premium at the weekend, except for coach K with the kitchen.

I did wonder if that was the set up. Thanks for the info

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because they are told to.

The DaFT are telling them to do the fake compulsory reservation thing? I doubt it, as not all IC TOCs are doing it, GWR isn't for instance.

 

[tspaul26]

I've no idea if I'm right, but I'd be very surprised if many people decide to upgrade to First Class spontaneously on the day of travel.

My colleagues and I often do so, especially when travelling between Birmingham and London where the difference between Standard and First Anytime Singles is only £35 or so. This falls within our expenses cap for meals when travelling on business so we are able to recover the cost as an exception to the normal ‘no first class unless cheaper’ rule.

I’ve seen plenty of other passengers upgrade on the day as well during the week. For example, last week there was a lady on the table over from me who upgraded with the guard all the way from Edinburgh to Manchester and on another recent journey a group of five who all upgraded between Edinburgh and York.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The DaFT are telling them to do the fake compulsory reservation thing? I doubt it, as not all IC TOCs are doing it, GWR isn't for instance.

Various parties are insistent on leaving seats available for last minute customers.

 

[AlterEgo]

So to paraphrase, “we keep a few tickets back to sell cheaply on Seatfrog rather than allowing passengers to pay the full price for them in advance”.

Have The Apprentice candidates been let loose in Avanti’s commercial department by any chance? Surely Seatfrog should only have any leftovers, and even then make sure some are held back for walk up sales.

Indeed it is mad. Seatfrog should be selling distressed inventory, not getting a quota on every train for first dibs.