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Avanti WC down the pan again

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6Gman

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I agree - but you have to resource it, and I suspect running a Carlisle shuttle with Preston crews at no notice would require cancelling most of their London turns, which would mess up rather more passengers.

It ought to be done if it can be planned and resourced, but I am not an insider nor even a diagrammer so have no idea if that is a realistic possibility.
There should be a contingency plan in place which allows for some coverage north of Preston though this might indeed impact on the southbound service.

It might also require a degree of management-staff flexibility that would once have been taken for granted but which may not be so readily given given the current state of industrial relations.
 
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Dr Hoo

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Can't help but think that the gradual demanning of Railway Stations doesn't help at all with incidences of Suicide / Foul Play / Crime / Safety of passengers etc. A well trained member of staff picks up on things that CCTV Cameras and Notices cannot change or influence. CCTV Cameras are great for determining what happened after the incident has occured but that is a fat lot of good to the person affected.
Have LUL/London Overground now de-staffed Wembley Central, Kenton, etc.? There always used to be ‘continuous’ staff at these locations.
 

6Gman

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You would have thought as someone in public life who presumably has some awareness of emergency services and traumatic situations - she would be aware it’s not quite a simple as this tweet implies, and that getting appropriate support to the driver and the team on the ground is perhaps even more important than her hunger.

Generally given the lack of alternative routes into London, and the personal tragedy for both the family of the person involved and the railway family unwillingly involved, I think this is one scenario (sadly very much a peak season for it) the railways can be said to deal with consistently and compassionately well.
The lady in question is no stranger to simple answers to complex issues ...

I once attended an Any Questions where she wanted better trains and cheaper fares (quite how she expected to pair up reduced income against increased expenditure was by no means clear).
 

yorkie

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Have LUL/London Overground now de-staffed Wembley Central, Kenton, etc.? There always used to be ‘continuous’ staff at these locations.
My understanding is that the contract requires stations to be staffed; @parkender102 do you have any evidence staff have been removed at these station?
 

Mojo

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Have LUL/London Overground now de-staffed Wembley Central, Kenton, etc.? There always used to be ‘continuous’ staff at these locations.
No they haven’t. The stations still have staff rostered 24/7, except for Christmas Day and short periods where the staff may wish to take a meal break. In the instance of Wembley Central this is staffed at all times trains are running, as it is considered a sub-surface station and has minimum staffing numbers in accordance with the law and London Underground standards.
 

boyaloud

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The good news though is that new coffee machines are being fitted very very soon.

This should help with the unreliable machines, also around the card machines the previous Zonal system is being ripped out currently (a product that was very much not suited to being on a train!) and an ECR mobile unit being fitted for the shop in addition to 1st.
Will they use real milk not powdered? I find this unbelievable in this day and age!
 

Andy Pacer

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BTP were the ones who refused to allow any train movements in the area, even 2O41 which was stuck behind the incident train and clear of the incident was being held by BTP. Internal information reveals that multiple attempts to get this train back to HRW were made including escalation to the BTP SDO and the London NOC but nothing. An evacuation to ballast was the only alternative and resources were sent to action this though I don’t know if this actually happened or not. Either way, it’s a sad day for those involved. The incident train moving could easily ruin any forensic evidence.
What is "SDO" and "NOC" please?
 

VauxhallandI

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My parents left my our hotel on the outskirts of Glasgow at 9:30am the day before yesterda, they got to Euston last night at 9:30pm.

They both use the disabled assistance service however this falls apart when you are detrained at Preston. I wish there was a way where they are looked after in these circumstance. I’m awaiting the full debrief from them later but my Mum ended up in a shouting match with someone regarding a seat.

We flew to Glasgow and boy am I glad we did. I need to convince them to do so in future years.
 

Deafdoggie

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The lady in question is no stranger to simple answers to complex issues ...

I once attended an Any Questions where she wanted better trains and cheaper fares (quite how she expected to pair up reduced income against increased expenditure was by no means clear).
Fairly standard business practice "pile it high, sell it cheap" If trains were cheaper, more people would use them, so they'd get more money.
In theory, this is what advance tickets are for. Sell off otherwise empty seats cheaply and that's all extra money for virtually no extra cost.
 

Jamesrob637

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It's why I, and so many others, buy a car. The rail service is abysmal and no one cares. There's lots of excuses, but no actual desire to do anything about it, just more blaming other people for it.

That's why, when in London for work, I travel down the night before. It doesn't make a difference being away 1 more night for the few times in the year it takes place. Were it weekly or even monthly, I'd cherish my time at home, but for quarterly at best I'll always go down the night before.
 

Boodiggy

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What is "SDO" and "NOC" please?
NOC is the National Operations Centre. It is based is MK but has a office in London too. The SDO is the senior BTO officer based in London, which is in the same building as TfL and the London NOC which allows for better communication.
Apologies I can’t remember the actual SDO acronym but when I comes to me I will update this post.
 

Bletchleyite

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That's why, when in London for work, I travel down the night before. It doesn't make a difference being away 1 more night for the few times in the year it takes place. Were it weekly or even monthly, I'd cherish my time at home, but for quarterly at best I'll always go down the night before.

This often saves businesses money anyway as an off peak plus a hotel costs less than an Anytime. It should bother Avanti though as it's losing them lucrative Anytime fares.
 

Jamesrob637

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This often saves businesses money anyway as an off peak plus a hotel costs less than an Anytime. It should bother Avanti though as it's losing them lucrative Anytime fares.

True. The point being that, if the lines are screwed the previous evening, there's always the option to go down the next morning when they're sorted, but not have to pay the exorbitant morning fares!
 

cactustwirly

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This often saves businesses money anyway as an off peak plus a hotel costs less than an Anytime. It should bother Avanti though as it's losing them lucrative Anytime fares.
Does it really? Hotels in London are £150 per night, plus the lost productivity the day before
 

Jamesrob637

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Does it really? Hotels in London are £150 per night, plus the lost productivity the day before

I get travel agency rates - I've found a fare plus hotel for (just) sub-£100 next month. Maybe touching £100 if I add the "tap tap" fare from Euston to the hotel in Zone 3, however £2-3 is neither here nor there!
 

Bletchleyite

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Does it really? Hotels in London are £150 per night, plus the lost productivity the day before

Yes, for Manchester to London money is still saved doing that.

In many if not most private businesses, the journey would be in the person's own time or they would work from the train, they'd typically agree that as it's better than a crack of dawn start. Don't get fixated with how the public sector works.

As I said this should really concern Avanti as those fares are very profitable.
 

jumble

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BTP were the ones who refused to allow any train movements in the area, even 2O41 which was stuck behind the incident train and clear of the incident was being held by BTP. Internal information reveals that multiple attempts to get this train back to HRW were made including escalation to the BTP SDO and the London NOC but nothing. An evacuation to ballast was the only alternative and resources were sent to action this though I don’t know if this actually happened or not. Either way, it’s a sad day for those involved. The incident train moving could easily ruin any forensic evidence.
I happened to be there at the time
As you say 2O41 could easily have been sent back to Harrow as it was of course on its own lines

There was an Avanti train surprisingly little distance south of Kenton Station and what I assume was 2O41 Just north of the station on the other side of the railway bridge from the Station
There was a large emergency service presence
Approx. 6 police cars MET and BTP , 2 ambulances, Police helicopter, LUL Emergency Response unit at Northwick park Underground
 

RailWonderer

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It's why I, and so many others, buy a car. The rail service is abysmal and no one cares. There's lots of excuses, but no actual desire to do anything about it, just more blaming other people for it.
There are many people that care, but the ones with the purse strings unfortunately do not
Having to stand long distance is the worst advertisement for the railways there is. If the government wants to be green and environmental, increasing railway subsidy is the best way of doing it. Even increased travel on diesel trains is better for the air as more people are in one coach than in one roadcar. As usual though, short termism rules all decision making in government.

As I said this should really concern Avanti as those fares are very profitable.
Well they aren't if very few are paying them. That makes them uncompetitive.
 

northwichcat

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Does it really? Hotels in London are £150 per night, plus the lost productivity the day before

With Avanti an Off Peak Return can be just over £100, while an Anytime Return can be getting on for £400.

I'm not sure what you mean about lost productivity. The trains accepting Off Peak tickets take the same amount of time to reach London as the ones that don't accept them. Unless you're expecting people to travel down so that they arrive by 9am and not receive any overtime pay or TOIL?
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm not sure what you mean about lost productivity. The trains accepting Off Peak tickets take the same amount of time to reach London as the ones that don't accept them. Unless you're expecting people to travel down so that they arrive by 9am and not receive any overtime pay or TOIL?

10am would be more typical (these mythical 9am meetings don't really exist in my experience of business travel) but yes, in the salaried private sector there would typically be no overtime pay nor formal TOIL for such travel, though there may be an informal arrangement with individual managers saying "just knock off a couple of hours early tomorrow, nobody's watching" or such.
 

D1537

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10am would be more typical (these mythical 9am meetings don't really exist in my experience of business travel) but yes, in the salaried private sector there would typically be no overtime pay nor formal TOIL for such travel, though there may be an informal arrangement with individual managers saying "just knock off a couple of hours early tomorrow, nobody's watching" or such.
I can assure you that, certainly in my part of the public sector, there would be no pay or TOIL either. After all, we are not paid for the time it takes us to commute to work in normal circumstances.

The last time I had a meeting in London (and this was an arrive by 9am, starts at 9.30 sharp job) I travelled down after work, arriving in Euston at around 8.30pm. For me that was the lesser of two evils as the alternative was to be up at around 5.30am AND rely on Avanti not to stuff up by more than an hour, which let's face it ...

I suspected the hotel might be a bit flaky as well for £120 in London but it was actually really good - I can recommend the Ibis Styles near Gloucester Road tube!
 

jimjim

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There should be a contingency plan in place which allows for some coverage north of Preston though this might indeed impact on the southbound service.

It might also require a degree of management-staff flexibility that would once have been taken for granted but which may not be so readily given given the current state of industrial relations.

In the past with Virgin, drivers had an agreement where they don't go over the same route twice. So your Glasgow drivers who are stuck at Preston wouldn't do a shuttle to Carlisle as they would break this agreement coming back to Preston.
Any Preston drivers who would be going to Euston which I'm guessing with a layover at Euston would be closer to 5hrs round trip could only do one shuttle but you would then lose any further work from them.

I'm not 100% sure this is still the case but I wouldn't have thought it would have changed.
 

hexabyte

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I happened to be there at the time
As you say 2O41 could easily have been sent back to Harrow as it was of course on its own lines

There was an Avanti train surprisingly little distance south of Kenton Station and what I assume was 2O41 Just north of the station on the other side of the railway bridge from the Station
There was a large emergency service presence
Approx. 6 police cars MET and BTP , 2 ambulances, Police helicopter, LUL Emergency Response unit at Northwick park Underground
You would be correct there. Though wasn’t that the response at Kenton station? I know that Kenton was the designated access point and all resources were sent there with Harrow being the other end to be restricted to keep the scene sterile I suppose. I know that they followed standard procedure including with 2O41 and i suppose it was all on forensics probably so they could work how the person got on the tracks in the first place though they also had information that none of us did and didn’t release it.
 

Falcon1200

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Any Preston drivers who would be going to Euston which I'm guessing with a layover at Euston would be closer to 5hrs round trip could only do one shuttle but you would then lose any further work from them.

In which case agreements should be changed so that, during severe disruption only, that restrictive clause no longer applies and Traincrew could for example work two Preston/Carlisle round trips. Which would of course depend on good industrial relations between Avanti and the Trade Unions.....
 

jimjim

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In which case agreements should be changed so that, during severe disruption only, that restrictive clause no longer applies and Traincrew could for example work two Preston/Carlisle round trips. Which would of course depend on good industrial relations between Avanti and the Trade Unions.....
I believe it was introduced as a safety thing and I guess if Virgin didn't change it then Avanti have got no chance. Maybe I was misinformed but that's what I've always been told.

We had big disruption at International once with a big event on. Virgin had a set and a crew at New St going nowhere. It was asked if they could put in an International shuttle but declined as they could only work once.
 

Falcon1200

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I believe it was introduced as a safety thing and I guess if Virgin didn't change it then Avanti have got no chance.

Interesting, thanks. I wonder what drove this restriction, considering that other Drivers can work multiple times over the same route during their shift - Perhaps the speed at which Avanti run? Although other TOCs also have 125mph trains as well of course, would a similar restriction apply elsewhere?
 

Deafdoggie

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Having to stand long distance is the worst advertisement for the railways there is.
Really? Worse than charging £400 for a ticket then cancelling two consecutive trains and cancelling the last train back and making no alternative provision and making people, who have already paid £400, pay more to sort themselves out? Standing is a problem many train travellers dream of.
 

PyrahnaRanger

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Does it really? Hotels in London are £150 per night, plus the lost productivity the day before
I’m due to do a meeting in London next month. An advanced single there and back is less than £150 and a travelodge is around £80. An anytime return is just shy of £400, so my attitude is that if I go down the day before and have a night in a hotel, I arrive fresh and relaxed and ready to go, not frazzled from using the British transport system and I’ve still saved the company nearly £170. I can’t do Teams calls or phone calls from the train, but I can’t do teams in the car either. I can do email, research, training or various other tasks, so productivity wise, the train edges the car out. Hence, I only travel in work time, unless there’s a chance of getting home at a reasonable time!
 

45669

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Was the 'incident' on the main line, or the Euston - Watford d.c. line? If it was on the main line, why was the d.c. line also affected - and vice versa?
 
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