Avanti West Coast cancellations

[91108]

So when are people expecting the RDW issue to "resolve" itself based on previous years? September when children are back at school?

You can’t judge it based on previous years, it hasn’t ever been this bad. Summer weather, school holidays etc always played a part in making things difficult to organise, but there was enough staff goodwill for people to work some rest days and a willingness of the franchised tocs to pay for it, otherwise the dft fined them for cancellations.
I would say based on this year, maybe when energy bills actually hit the predicted heights then staff will be forced to start volunteering.
Just like the good old days, “we“ voted to go back too…..

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What, exactly, is stopping Avanti train crew working rest days as they have for many years with Virgin?
Is it related to the wider issues of pay and DfT-imposed contract terms, or is it a localised dispute?

 

[Moonshot]

You can’t judge it based on previous years, it hasn’t ever been this bad. Summer weather, school holidays etc always played a part in making things difficult to organise, but there was enough staff goodwill for people to work some rest days and a willingness of the franchised tocs to pay for it, otherwise the dft fined them for cancellations.
I would say based on this year, maybe when energy bills actually hit the predicted heights then staff will be forced to start volunteering.
Just like the good old days, “we“ voted to go back too…..

Not so sure myself, I haven't actually worked a rest day in nearly 6 month now. I'm not actually missing them either, I'm more inclined to enjoy the time off. Imo there are a lot of staff thinking like that as well. Maybe it's the beginning of the end for the so called overtime culture which has been so embedded in the industry for years?

 

[Bald Rick]

How many turns would driver managers be able to cover, not many I would suggest.

See LNER’s strike service for an example.

So when are people expecting the RDW issue to "resolve" itself based on previous years? September when children are back at school?

another couple of years, I guess.

It's worth pointing out that drivers links are structured in such a way that once every 5 weeks they get a full week off as rest days. That's a weeks holiday in other industries. I'm not surprised that drivers are not working there rest days tbh

in some TOCs but not all by any means.

What, exactly, is stopping Avanti train crew working rest days as they have for many years with Virgin?
Is it related to the wider issues of pay and DfT-imposed contract terms, or is it a localised dispute?

DfT haven’t imposed any contract terms.

 

[ivanhoe]

The basic problem of lack of sufficient number of drivers is still there

There are 2 potential fixes :
1) got to employ more, but by time taken on and trained this isn’t a quick fix
2) Short term could incentivise the drivers to volunteer for overtime (by offering extra money, bonuses etc)

But not clear who would fund it, so solution can only be achieved by funding it

Clearly the current Business Plan is not viable in the current and near future. Avanti have resorted to overt disinformation to hide the predicament of its failings or indeed the failings of the DFT Contract.
I suspect that most of the passengers who use the service are not au fait with the operational side of things and depending on where they obtain their news, will see the problem as solely a Management/Union issue.
Couple this with an ongoing Leadership contest, major issues with Energy and cost of living, there appears to be little room or desire in solving the problems. It’s going to need resourcing , in order to get to a position which allows more than 4 tph . I suspect that Government led by a new PM in September will have greater issues to deal with. What a mess!

 

[SJN]

What, exactly, is stopping Avanti train crew working rest days as they have for many years with Virgin?
Is it related to the wider issues of pay and DfT-imposed contract terms, or is it a localised dispute?

It seems that people have decided they don’t want to. Probably as it’s the main holiday season and the weather is good and they have better things to do than go to work.

 

[Moonshot]

It seems that people have decided they don’t want to. Probably as it’s the main holiday season and the weather is good and they have better things to do than go to work.

A point I have just made. RDW is of increasingly little interest....have the time off when entitled to.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Exactly this. How the management thought they were going run that level of service during the summer holiday and school break period with the level of RDW that they were incurring beforehand is completely beyond me.

Then they go and antagonise a workforce that is already under pressure and they get surprised that RDW volunteers are now thin on the ground. Amazing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly this. How the management thought they were going run that level of service during the summer holiday and school break period with the level of RDW that they were incurring beforehand is completely beyond me.

Then they go and antagonise a workforce that is already under pressure and they get surprised that RDW volunteers are now thin on the ground. Amazing.

And that, not an awkward staffing situation inherited partly from VTWC, exascerbated by COVID etc, is the reason why Avanti deserve so much criticism.

Well, that and the ludicrously antagonistic attitude to industrial relations, which is going to make things worse in many ways, and I expect cost the MD his job.

 

[Goldfish62]

A point I have just made. RDW is of increasingly little interest....have the time off when entitled to.

Whereas I would have agreed with you until recently surely many people are going to want to work as much as possible given the deepening financial crisis they are going to find themselves in by the winter.

 

[Statto]

To ask a silly question, what is RDW?

 

[Trainbike46]

Rest Day Working, so overtime working on a day when you are not rostered to normally work

 

[Statto]

Rest Day Working, so overtime working on a day when you are not rostered to normally work

I see, cheers.

 

[DelW]

So when are people expecting the RDW issue to "resolve" itself based on previous years? September when children are back at school?

another couple of years, I guess.

If the current frequency of strikes and cancellations really *does* continue for the next two years, there won't be much of a railway system left. Passengers will have switched to other modes or simply given up, and the current level of taxpayer funding will be unsupportable.

Fortunately for me, I have a car and a driving licence. Travelling may get much more difficult for anyone who doesn't.

 

[Moonshot]

Whereas I would have agreed with you until recently surely many people are going to want to work as much as possible given the deepening financial crisis they are going to find themselves in by the winter.

An actual pay rise would help that. In any event, as is so often repeated on here, you cannot run a service which is reliant on staff making a choice as to work overtime or not.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It seems that people have decided they don’t want to. Probably as it’s the main holiday season and the weather is good and they have better things to do than go to work.

But as a result damaging their employer's and taxpayers' business by more than 50%, and yet called "not industrial action"?

 

[Statto]

An actual pay rise would help that. In any event, as is so often repeated on here, you cannot run a service which is reliant on staff making a choice as to work overtime or not.

Indeed, AWC situation seems more to do with general relations between staff & management, RDW, how can you take unofficial strike, when your working to a contract which stipulates the amount of rest days you can have, & you decide not to work on a rest day. Feels more management trying to divert blame from there own incompetent handling of the situation.

 

[GordonT]

I follow the logic of implementing a level of service which can be resourced. Is there a distinct possibility, though, of loads of pax being severely delayed because of the one train per hour which is available to them in theory is actually full up to the extent that they are unable to board it?

 

[Clarence Yard]

It’s an individual choice thing, not “industrial action”. If I was a Avanti driver and wanted to spend more time with my family because the weather is good, I could do with a holiday doing the things that I enjoy, my family deserve (& expect) more of my time during the summer, the childcare costs during the school holidays aren’t exactly cheap and also I may be a bit knackered after doing so much RDW (and my bank balance reflects that), I’m obviously going to say no.

Then my MD says publicly that I am talking industrial action! So am I going to continue to help him out? He can do one.

For example, any TOC management that expected it’s Glasgow based crews to work all that RDW during “Fairs Fortnight” need their heads examining.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't know if this link will work, but there's an interesting twitter thread by Graham Eccles on Roger Ford's twitter account.
Graham co-chaired VTWC in the early years, and later SWT.

https://twitter.com/gceccles/status/1557014629326458887

The mess that Avanti have got themselves into over Rest Day working and rostered Sundays makes me smile.
The whole thing is about Management (and the DfT) not heeding the lessons of history.

 

[mrmartin]

You can’t judge it based on previous years, it hasn’t ever been this bad. Summer weather, school holidays etc always played a part in making things difficult to organise, but there was enough staff goodwill for people to work some rest days and a willingness of the franchised tocs to pay for it, otherwise the dft fined them for cancellations.
I would say based on this year, maybe when energy bills actually hit the predicted heights then staff will be forced to start volunteering.
Just like the good old days, “we“ voted to go back too…..

No I get that, but there may be enough staff in Sept/Oct to restore more services? Even if it is not a full restoration?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Then my MD says publicly that I am talking industrial action! So am I going to continue to help him out? He can do one.

What I don't understand is that said MD worked for VTWC since 1999, and became their MD in January 2015, almost five years before Avanti took over. He surely understands all this. Is it just a case of DfT saying "you are going to spin it this way"?

 

[Goldfish62]

An actual pay rise would help that. In any event, as is so often repeated on here, you cannot run a service which is reliant on staff making a choice as to work overtime or not.

That's not the point I was trying to make. During Covid people were re-evaluating their lives and deciding that time off was of more importance than earning a bit extra. Now, with soaring inflation and energy bills that's going into reverse. I doubt if the railway bubble is exempt from this.

It seems to me that AWC are weaponising this situation to deprive staff of extra income when they need it both to supplement basic income and to make up for loss of earnings on strike days.

 

[duncanp]

Whereas I would have agreed with you until recently surely many people are going to want to work as much as possible given the deepening financial crisis they are going to find themselves in by the winter.

This may prove to be a turning point in this dispute, and probably all the others that are going on at the moment.

Every time you go on strike, or don't work overtime or on a rest day, you lose money that would otherwise have been in your pay packet.

When the higher energy bills start to bite on October/November each individual who is currently on strike and/or refusing to work rest days will have to consider whether they can afford to continue doing so.

The longer the industrial action goes on, the less chance there is that a potential improved pay offer will make up for the money lost due to the dispute.

 

[SJN]

But as a result damaging their employer's and taxpayers' business by more than 50%, and yet called "not industrial action"?

Well it’s not industrial action is it? It’s people having their days off which they’re entitled to and it’s on the roster as their day off. Why is it the staffs problem that Avanti rely on so many people to work their days off without the timetable collapsing?

 

[geoffk]

It is much cheaper for the TOC to employ (say) 500 drivers who work 40 hours per week than 570 who work 35 hours per week. The same number of working hours are achieved, but overhead/training costs are reduced massively. Hence why rest day working has dominated in this industry where training and overheads are hugely expensive compared to others. It is the cheapest solution, until industrial relations turn sour.

As is also the case at least at Northern, TPE and XC (but obviously TPE still cannot deliver their reduced timetable). The DfT seem very content prolonging the reduced timetables there. Whether the London influence may change this course on Avanti remains unknown.

A recent article in "Today's Railways UK" on planned WCML timetable changes refers to a second Euston - Liverpool train being phased in during 2023. There must be zero likelihood of this happening.

 

[Clarence Yard]

What I don't understand is that said MD worked for VTWC since 1999, and became their MD in January 2015, almost five years before Avanti took over. He surely understands all this. Is it just a case of DfT saying "you are going to spin it this way"?

I think he actually believes it is industrial action. His experience of the management of staff at the ground level and what happens when it all goes wrong appears to be very limited.

Some of us who have had long industry careers have seen this kind of thing before. It usually doesn’t end well for any manager who “loses the messroom”.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well it’s not industrial action is it? It’s people having their days off which they’re entitled to and it’s on the roster as their day off. Why is it the staffs problem that Avanti rely on so many people to work their days off without the timetable collapsing?

Well both sides seem to have been happy with the arrangement over many years.
You'd expect a gradual reduction of overtime working if the establishment is increasing, which seems to be the policy.
And in the real world, damaging your employer's business is not healthy, for either side.
As the taxpayer is picking up all the railway tab it's at no cost to the industry (until the money runs out).

Maybe you can tell I spent my working life in a non-unionised industry (IT), where large amounts of (unpaid) overtime were willingly worked for business and career improvement.
I'd also like to know how airlines manage this type of problem.
They are not in a good place either at the moment, with cancellations and capacity caps, and threatened industrial action.

 

[D1537]

It's fairly clear that Shapps and his poodle Whittingham would *really* like to go down the route of fire and rehire.

 

[the sniper]

What I don't understand is that said MD worked for VTWC since 1999, and became their MD in January 2015, almost five years before Avanti took over. He surely understands all this. Is it just a case of DfT saying "you are going to spin it this way"?

I can only presume there's some job lined up for him in the DfT or GBR, as otherwise I can't really believe the approach he's taken.

Let us not forget what Peter Wilkinson, DfT Passenger Services Managing Director, said back in 2016:

He is said to have added: "I'm furious about it and it has got to change - we have got to break them. They have all borrowed money to buy cars and got credit cards. They can't afford to spend too long on strike and I will push them into that place.

"They will have to decide if they want to give a good service or get the hell out of my industry."

Rail official apologises over 'punch-ups with train drivers' comment

A Government rail official has apologised after reportedly saying drivers who resist changes to their working hours can "get the hell out of my…

www.heraldscotland.com

So it probably worked for the intended audience.