Badly laid out road junctions discussion.

[Bletchleyite]

If you are being cut up on a roundabout then you are clearly in the wrong lane

mods note - split from here.

I'm not talking about being cut up, I am talking about the risk of someone moving sideways onto me, possibly because they are in fact in the wrong lane.

Though there do exist wrongly marked roundabouts. There was one in MK (A5/Grafton St) until it caused multiple accidents. I narrowly avoided one by way of this sensible approach - because I ensured the errant car was just in front of me I was able to see his wheels begin to turn.

 

[AlterEgo]

On the other hand I find driving on Autobahnen far safer than on UK motorways, therefore perhaps derestriction should come back to the UK.

Might even be a traffic driver to the railways!

Germany has more road deaths per 1000km of motorway than the UK.

I'm not talking about being cut up, I am talking about the risk of someone moving sideways onto me, possibly because they are in fact in the wrong lane.

Though there do exist wrongly marked roundabouts. There was one in MK (A5/Grafton St) until it caused multiple accidents. I narrowly avoided one by way of this sensible approach - because I ensured the errant car was just in front of me I was able to see his wheels begin to turn.

Kelly’s Kitchen Roundabout in south MK has the same issue. It’s wrongly marked heading south off the A5 heading for the A4146, and has been for many years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Kelly’s Kitchen Roundabout in south MK has the same issue. It’s wrongly marked heading south off the A5 heading for the A4146, and has been for many years.

It is indeed, noticed that one last week! Less dangerous than the one I mentioned, though, which had a situation where you had the left two lanes approaching Grafton Street both marked left and straight on, creating an obvious conflict that caused loads of crashes. That is, car on the left goes straight on, car on the right goes left into the side of them.

Fairly obviously, in roundabout marking 101, if you have two lanes they can only have one direction in common (usually on a dual carriageway it's straight on). If they have more than one you create a conflict.

They fixed it by removing the straight on arrow on the left hand lane, though it's still not optimally marked.

 

[AM9]

It is indeed, noticed that one last week! Less dangerous than the one I mentioned, though, which had a situation where you had the left two lanes approaching Grafton Street both marked left and straight on, creating an obvious conflict that caused loads of crashes. That is, car on the left goes straight on, car on the right goes left into the side of them.

Fairly obviously, in roundabout marking 101, if you have two lanes they can only have one direction in common (usually on a dual carriageway it's straight on). If they have more than one you create a conflict.

They fixed it by removing the straight on arrow on the left hand lane, though it's still not optimally marked.

But then even when the roundabout is correctly marked there's those that are regularly abused, partly because of the alignment of exits. The London Colney roundabout (A1082/A414) SE of St Albans is a frequent scrape location. The worst part is exiting onto the A414w where the exit lane start curving at the sharper end of the roundabout which is an oval shape. The two outer lanes are correctly marked for the A414w/Hemel and the inner lanes for A1081/A414e St Albans/Hatfield, but plenty of drivers the inner lanes lane to the right of them and cut in at the exit where that is a straighter line than the correct route.

 

[The exile]

While your car is clearly designed for and capable of that, it only takes a second's distraction for those speed differentials to become deadly. That's the issue and is why the Autobahnen are so dangerous.

You clearly find it fun. I find it terrifying - in Germany it's rail or rail for me. It is also awful for CO2 emissions.

130km/h is quite fast enough for anyone to be driving unless they've booked a track day or are on the Nuerburgring. If you want to travel at 240km/h, go to the station and take the ICE.

When I learnt to drive in Germany (which includes lessons on the motorway) it was pointed out that exceeding the advisory 130kmh limit would not go down well with your insurers if you were involved in an accident (even if it was being rear-ended by someone going faster). Was always academic for me anyway - my Golf developed an alarming rattle at about 125!

 

[Bald Rick]

The M1 however is awful, full of middle lane morons and undertaker's.
Very difficult to overtake as everyone is doing the same speed.

Moving left after overtaking on the M1 south of J11 is almost non existent. I’ve just driven southbound on it, and got all the way from J11 to J10 on the active hardshoulder without seeing a single other car in that lane. I reckon I went past about 100 vehicles, including several HGVs in lane 3 (Of 4).

Kelly’s Kitchen Roundabout in south MK has the same issue. It’s wrongly marked heading south off the A5 heading for the A4146, and has been for many years.

I’ve just experienced that, and whilst I knew exactly where I was going, the lane marking were a right mess.

But then even when the roundabout is correctrly there's those that are regularly abused, partly because of the alignment of exits. The London Colney roundabout (A1082/A414) SE of St Albans is a frequent scrape location. The worst part is exiting onto the A414w where the exit lane start curving at the sharper end of the roundabout which is an oval shape. The two outer lanes are correctly marked for the A414w/Hemel and the inner lanes for A1081/A414e St Albans/Hatfield, but plenty of drivers the inner lanes lane to the right of them and cut in at the exit where that is a straighter line than the correct route.

yes I’ve seen several incidents there. Funny thing is you can always tell when someone is going to drift into your lane.

 

[AM9]

yes I’ve seen several incidents there. Funny thing is you can always tell when someone is going to drift into your lane.

Sometimes it more like forcing their way in both from the J22 direction and from Hatfield.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I learnt to drive in Germany (which includes lessons on the motorway) it was pointed out that exceeding the advisory 130kmh limit would not go down well with your insurers if you were involved in an accident (even if it was being rear-ended by someone going faster). Was always academic for me anyway - my Golf developed an alarming rattle at about 125!

The "no limit" thing was being discussed further on LBC on Tom Swarbrick's programme and the context was definitely smart motorway limits, not the 70mph limit, i.e. removing the red circles and cameras from those.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Quarterbridge in Douglas is interesting. It's a double mini-roundabout dog-legged over a bridge. From the south you go in the left lane to go "straight on", which involves a right turn then a left turn. The road is marked "straight on", but if you went straight on you'd end up in the river. Locals know this and it works, but obviously non-locals don't know this and cause mayhem.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

maps.app.goo.gl

It's a simar deal at the Haddricks Mill Junction in Newcastle, which is just hateful in every way.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

maps.app.goo.gl

Germany has more road deaths per 1000km of motorway than the UK.

That's interesting, I didn't know that.

It's worth noting that the smart motorways causing hand-wringing here have existed in Germany for donkey's years.

 

[Dave W]

Moving left after overtaking on the M1 south of J11 is almost non existent. I’ve just driven southbound on it, and got all the way from J11 to J10 on the active hardshoulder without seeing a single other car in that lane. I reckon I went past about 100 vehicles, including several HGVs in lane 3 (Of 4).

It gets even worse south of the M25 which might be the most lawless road I've ever driven on. Cars doing 55mph in lane 2 (and sometimes 3!), idiots doing well over a ton. A hair-raising experience, first time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's worth noting that the smart motorways causing hand-wringing here have existed in Germany for donkey's years.

Do Germany use them to remove the hard shoulder, or do they just have variable speed limits to manage congestion? I thought it was more the latter. While I know the speeders don't like the latter, they haven't drawn much ire here, it's mostly been the loss of the hard shoulder.

I know some Autobahnen never had the hard shoulder at all, hence the "Rettungsspur" gap you are supposed to leave in congestion so an ambulance can get through, but it's a bit different removing something that was there and in doing so reducing safety vs. it never having been there e.g. UK dual carriageway A roads.

Curiously they still do that even when there is a full hard shoulder, when it'd make more sense to have the ambulance go down there as it does here.

 

[typefish]

Do Germany use them to remove the hard shoulder, or do they just have variable speed limits to manage congestion? I thought it was more the latter. While I know the speeders don't like the latter, they haven't drawn much ire here, it's mostly been the loss of the hard shoulder.

They use them to employ the hard shoulder, similar to the original (and frankly, better) managed motorway schemes originally employed on the M42 and M6

 

[Bletchleyite]

They use them to employ the hard shoulder, similar to the original (and frankly, better) managed motorway schemes originally employed on the M42 and M6

I think those are better than all lane running, as you are more consciously driving in the hard shoulder and as such you tend to think differently and almost expect a stationary vehicle, and the hard shoulder is only used when it is very congested and cannot be enabled without putting up a 60mph limit.

 

[Ken H]

Back to rubbish junctions, what about where the A43 joins the A40.
Its 2 roundabouts joined by one overbridge over the motorway. Ot helped by having a services glued on. But there are some horrid adverse cambers so trucks frequently topple.
Or have they fixed it now?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Do Germany use them to remove the hard shoulder, or do they just have variable speed limits to manage congestion?

Both. In some it's just a variable limit, e.g. in poor weather. But they do also use them to enable hard shoulder running in heavy traffic, as the original smart motorways here do.

Possibly veering off topic, but the issue in the UK isn't the hard shoulder running or even the all-lane running, it's the gap between refuges. On the older of the all-lane smart motorways the gap between refuges is about 500m, but in a cost-saving move the government extended the gap, which is now as much as 2km between refuges. Most vehicles will be able to hobble 500m to safety in most types of incident, but are far less likely to be able to hobble 2km.

 

[alxndr]

Swindon has a few problematic roundabouts (although I wouldn't class the infamous magic roundabout as one of them).

On the Greenbridge roundabout it's very common for people coming from the east to try and access the retail park from the middle lane, when it should be the inside lane. The markings are correct, but it feels wrong due to the layout.

51°34'18.1"N 1°45'00.4"W · 30-64 Slade Dr, Swindon SN3 4DN

30-64 Slade Dr, Swindon SN3 4DN

maps.app.goo.gl

Mannington Roundabout suffers from having had the layout altered. People coming from the north still think there's two lanes to take the third exit to head west, but there hasn't been for some years now.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/7WJjUETozGFc7Coq 8

One of the mini roundabouts is missing an arrow to go straight on from south to north. I think the road layout is fairly obvious, but there's been years of campaigning by the local residents association to get it added. It is a bit unusual to need to be in the right hand lane to go straight over, so if should be there.

51°34'59.4"N 1°47'57.2"W · 347 Cheney Manor Rd, Swindon SN2 2PE

347 Cheney Manor Rd, Swindon SN2 2PE

maps.app.goo.gl

Elsewhere, Cumbernauld suffers from a lack of roundabouts, although apparently its known for having lots. The original plans for the town had more, but they were never completed, leaving numerous slip roads coming on and off very close together. It works once you get used to it, but coming across it out of the blue for the first time is a bit of a surprise, especially if there's a car wanting to leave the main road as you're wanting to join.

One example:

55°56'27.5"N 3°59'50.8"W · Seafar And Ravenswood, Cumbernauld, Glasgow

Seafar And Ravenswood, Cumbernauld, Glasgow

maps.app.goo.gl

 

[Dave W]

One example:

55°56'27.5"N 3°59'50.8"W · Seafar And Ravenswood, Cumbernauld, Glasgow

Seafar And Ravenswood, Cumbernauld, Glasgow

maps.app.goo.gl

Ah the Birmingham ring road principle... The fighting to get on and off is monumental!

 

[Dai Corner]

M4 Jn27 is counterintuitive.

If you're approaching from the east and wish to join the motorway southbound the instinct is to take the first exit off the roundabout. That will actually send you north. You have to take the third exit to go south.

https://goo.gl/maps/TzjmSah7bjJR5EfJ9

 

[typefish]

Possibly veering off topic, but the issue in the UK isn't the hard shoulder running or even the all-lane running, it's the gap between refuges. On the older of the all-lane smart motorways the gap between refuges is about 500m, but in a cost-saving move the government extended the gap, which is now as much as 2km between refuges. Most vehicles will be able to hobble 500m to safety in most types of incident, but are far less likely to be able to hobble 2km.

Whenever the topics of refuges come up, I can't help but laugh.

The UK has several thousand miles of all purpose dual carriageways, in either D2 or D3 format without hard shoulders.

The biggest problems with smart motorways [that are psychological] are mostly to do with the fact that they are almost entirely barriered from the edge of the carriageway, as there is almost a continuous mass of overhead gantries - there is little way for a car to be part located off the edge of the carriageway on All Lane Running D4M roads, for example

They're adding an extra set of refuges so that there will be refuges between 1km and 500m each other but without looking at the core issue, people will still be understandably yet un-necessarily scared of a concept that shouldn't be scary.

 

[roversfan2001]

The biggest problems with smart motorways [that are psychological] are mostly to do with the fact that they are almost entirely barriered from the edge of the carriageway, as there is almost a continuous mass of overhead gantries - there is little way for a car to be part located off the edge of the carriageway on All Lane Running D4M roads, for example

They're adding an extra set of refuges so that there will be refuges between 1km and 500m each other but without looking at the core issue, people will still be understandably yet un-necessarily scared of a concept that shouldn't be scary.

My main gripe with smart motorways is that they're often blatantly used for extorting money out of motorists.

Exhibit A being the M6 south just after the M6 Toll branches off at J11A at about 10pm on Saturday night. The speed limit gantries read blank-40-NSL-blank without a single obstacle in sight and no congestion. The only possible explanation for this is to collect a few £100 fines off unsuspecting drivers (or even more if they're going fast enough). Of course, dodgy kit could explain this too, but the reluctance to rectify it will link back into revenue generation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exhibit A being the M6 south just after the M6 Toll branches off at J11A at about 10pm on Saturday night. The speed limit gantries read blank-40-NSL-blank without a single obstacle in sight and no congestion. The only possible explanation for this is to collect a few £100 fines off unsuspecting drivers (or even more if they're going fast enough). Of course, dodgy kit could explain this too, but the reluctance to rectify it will link back into revenue generation.

If you get caught by those cameras you shouldn't be driving. You know where the cameras are and can see the 40s. Fair game even if it is wilfully to make money (which it isn't, it's just incompetence). I've not seen what you describe there, though, so it's possible that the 40 was put on just after you passed the last blank for a far longer section for good reason and you only saw the last one and the NSL.

I'd put something that obvious in the same bracket as littering fines, which are easily avoided by not littering.

In essence any driver who gets caught by a signed, bright yellow speed camera with the limit literally printed on it is pretty much by definition not paying attention and so deserves it. It's hardly a copper hidden behind a bush.

 

[yoyothehobo]

i have frequently come across the old blank-40-NSL-blank sequence on the M62 as well. Particularly in light traffic. Its bad because it makes people take less notice of what they are being shown by the signs. If a speed limit is perceived as unreasonable, there is less chance of it being stuck to.

A large section of the East Lancs road (A580) is 40mph in a section where is full dual carriageway, with armco barriered central reservation. The setting is rural as well Most people do 60-65 at least down there.

ANYWAY back to rubbish junctions, i find the M62-M1 junction particularly bad. If you are travelling west you can use either of 2 lanes on the roundabout to head north on the M1. Unfortunately people coming north on the M1 and going east on the M62 can use both lanes on the roundabout. There is a set of traffic lights where the eastbound M62 traffic joins.

This results in people in the outer (left hand) lane of the roundabout wanting to carry on round the junction, whilst those on the inside want to exit, both correctly obeying signposts and road markings. Chaos isnt far away normally.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A large section of the East Lancs road (A580) is 40mph in a section where is full dual carriageway, with armco barriered central reservation. The setting is rural as well Most people do 60-65 at least down there.

I've driven the ELR quite a lot of times and some of the limits are a bit low at the Manchester end, but I generally find that most people do well below the limit on the faster sections, and I, with the limiter set to 62 (real 60) in the 60 sections, tend to go flying past them.

 

[HSTEd]

The worst junction I've ever seen is the A3-M25 junction complex, where a country lane just comes out onto a sliproad.

 

[JB_B]

Germany has more road deaths per 1000km of motorway than the UK.

Would you be able to provide a link to the source for that?

 

[AlterEgo]

Would you be able to provide a link to the source for that?

Infographic: How Many People Die On European Motorways?

This chart shows the annual fatality rate per 1,000 km and general motorway speed limit.

www.statista.com

It's libertarian nonsense that German motorways are "uniquely safe". They are less safe than ours.

 

[Purple Train]

I think the markings are technically correct, but nevertheless not very helpful, at the Handy Cross roundabout near High Wycombe, at junction 4 of the M40, where it meets the A404 and two other minor roads. There are two entry slips onto the northbound M40 - one direct from the northbound A404, one coming off the roundabout, and the roundabout splits into two at one point. Basically it's just a confusing gyratory of lanes that provides enormous potential for slip-ups - thank goodness it's got traffic lights. I know this explanation will be hideous so I'll attach a satellite shot from Google Maps.
The other slightly ridiculous roundabout is that at Junction 8/9 on the M4, where the A404 (M) and the A308 (M) branch off. Because, for someone coming off the westbound carriageway, both exits are off to the right, this means that the left-hand lane is for cars heading right and taking the A404 (M). Because the right-hand lane also gives access to the A404 (M), this leads to drivers coming in from the right-hand lane and crossing into the left-hand lane to access the A404 (M), as you would do on a roundabout where the left-hand lane is for drivers going left and straight on. However, because both lanes are turning right, this does create a risk for a sidelong collision between a car in the left-hand lane and a car crossing over. There is also a risk of a driver in the left-hand lane following instinct and taking the first exit, which is straight back onto the M4.
The "magic" Greensteads Roundabout in Colchester is also quite badly signposted, which leads to a lot of confusion at the mini-roundabout section that the A133 comes in at. Fortunately, its magic enables you to still reach your road even if you get lost!

 

[JB_B]

Infographic: How Many People Die On European Motorways?

This chart shows the annual fatality rate per 1,000 km and general motorway speed limit.

www.statista.com

It's libertarian nonsense that German motorways are "uniquely safe". They are less safe than ours.

That's great - thanks for the link. Dismally plausible.

 

[Ted633]

My main gripe with smart motorways is that they're often blatantly used for extorting money out of motorists.

Exhibit A being the M6 south just after the M6 Toll branches off at J11A at about 10pm on Saturday night. The speed limit gantries read blank-40-NSL-blank without a single obstacle in sight and no congestion. The only possible explanation for this is to collect a few £100 fines off unsuspecting drivers (or even more if they're going fast enough). Of course, dodgy kit could explain this too, but the reluctance to rectify it will link back into revenue generation.

It's not unusual on the M25 (not a smart motorway I know, but does have variable speed limits) overnight to come across gantries saying '50' 'queue ahead' with the next couple of gantries saying '40' 'caution queue' before lifting to NSL. I just ignore them unless it is a gantry with a camera fitted (obvious to see and I know where they are anyway), then I will slow to the required speed.
My biggest issue with this is not that it catches people out, but when there is an actual incident, people are more likely to ignore them as half the time they see them they are wrong!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's libertarian nonsense that German motorways are "uniquely safe". They are less safe than ours.

And the main reason is the high speed (though there are other factors; many stretches are very windy and steep, being much more like our dual carriageway A roads in places) meaning that pretty much any collision will be extremely severe and result in deaths.

A change to an enforced 130km/h (80mph) compulsory limit, as per most of Europe, would be a huge improvement in this regard. If you need to do 180mph, go by train or fly. If you want to drive a car fast, book a track day or go on the Nuerburgring.