Being charged £374 from an issue 3 years ago

[jotty120]

Hi, I used to go to college in 2019 as my parents couldn't take me or pick me up sometimes and I ended up getting tickets but as you know the atherstone to Nuneaton train isn't very reliable and there were so many cancellations and delays due to bad weather and e.x. and can be refunded due as compensation which is what is used to do.
I got an email from the fraud team saying I owed them nearly £978 in November this year as they believed I didn't have a railcard. on providing the railcard they reduced it down to £374 but as A 1st year uni student with no job and no support how can they still fine me that amount? surely there is a cut-off point such as 6 months or something. And if this was such a big issue with refunding why give me the refund in the first place and are they allowed to ask me for it the £374 amount back?. as I have not received any letter or phone call just an email. just wanted to know if this is a scam as i have no idea how I'm going to pay for it.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We really need to know a bit more about what has happened to be able to offer advice. What train company are you dealing with? Can you post up copies of all the emails you've received and sent (but do cover up any personal details and case reference numbers before doing do).

In general terms, using a ticket to make a journey and applying for a refund is not allowed. It sounds as though the train company has searched their records and identified instances where the ticket was scanned and then a refund requested (all barcode scans are onboard or at a station gateline are recorded in a central database.

If you make a journey and it is delayed then depending on the length of the delay (often 15 minutes but can be more depending on the train company) you can apply for Delay Repay. This is a compensation scheme and is different from applying for a refund for an unused ticket, although many people often refer to delay repay as a refund.

A couple of other things - only a court can impose a fine as a punishment following a conviction. What it seems you are being offered the chance to pay is an out of court settlement to keep the matter out of court. Although paying the money will feel like a fine technically it isn't a fine and you won't have a criminal record as a result of paying a settlement. The train company could withdraw the settlement and send the matter to court but they woild need to demonstrate 'beyond all reasonable doubt' that you were guilty. If convicted by a court then as well as a potential criminal record you would have to pay a fine, surcharge, costs and compensation which would be far more than you are being asked to pay now. Also, the six months cut-off point depends on what law they decide to prosecute under so you cannot assume a six month cut-off applies.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Did you refund the tickets due to not travelling, or because you were dated getting to Nuneaton?

It sounds like you were refunding when you should have used Delay Repay, unless I've misread your post, which is fraudulently refunding tickets. This is an area which WMT are increasingly putting a lot of effort into.

Also, Atherstone to Nuneaton is the largest fare evasion area for WMT on the WCML so possibly flagged up because of that as well.

 

[island]

We have seen quite a number of cases recently, mostly from West Midlands Trains, where the train company has carried out reviews of historical transactions to identify suspicious activity and then written out to the account holder to ask them for a sum of money in return for not being prosecuted.

Patterns they look for include:

• Requesting refunds on tickets which have been scanned for travel
• A high percentage of cancelled tickets overall
• Misuse of discounts

It seems to me a lot of this behaviour has become more prevalent since the era of e-tickets. Where a paper ticket would need to be taken to a ticket office and an explanation given to a human about the reason for refunding, or a form filled out, signed, and posted, people seem to be more willing to “lie” to a machine when they can just tap a few buttons for their refund. There is also a groundswell of opinions that “the railway can afford it” in a “cost of living crisis” or “the service is so bad I deserve the money back”. I am not expressing a view on those opinions, but what is clear is that neither creates any basis in law for refunding used tickets.

It should be noted that the appropriate action when a delay is suffered is to claim DelayRepay under the relevant operator’s scheme. Whilst the amount of a DelayRepay claim may sometimes equal the value of the ticket, it is not correct to use the refund process on a ticket that was used in full.

Settlement agreements are then presented as an option to avoid prosecution. Unlike the usual agreement where someone was stopped in person for a single offence, the train companies are generally prepared to negotiate the amount of the settlement where it can be shown it was based on faulty information, as happened here.

To the OP – only you will know whether you committed fraud by asking for refunds on tickets you travelled on. If you did, even once, you should pay the settlement.

 

[RPI]

For incidents over 6 months ago TOC's are actively taking these to the county courts to reclaim the money, they will need to prove to the court that you owe them the money.

Question to the OP, were you stopped by a member of railway staff and reported before you received this email?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

surely there is a cut-off point such as 6 months or something

Worth bearing in mind what @RPI has said

For incidents over 6 months ago TOC's are actively taking these to the county courts to reclaim the money, they will need to prove to the court that you owe them the money.

Also, while there's a six month limit to take some fare-dodging offences to the magistrate's court, this doesn't work for other offences. There is at least a theoretical risk that if you don't agree to an out of court settlement (the £374 that the railway are asking for) they'll prosecute you for fraud - which doesn't have the six month limit you may have seen mentioned here in some cases.

Unless the railway are actually wrong to say that you have refunded tickets when you used them (and the fact that you have already negotiated them down from £978 to £374 suggests that you accept that you did do it when you shouldn't) then by far the safest solution is to find the £374 and pay it. If you don't, there is the risk of county court action for the railway to get their money back (as @RPI says) or of prosecution in the crown (i.e. criminal) court. Either of these will be time consuming for you to deal with, and if you lose you will almost certainly have to pay the railway's costs (for the time they've spent looking at it and their lawyer's time to prepare and pursue the case at court) on top of the money they want back. If they go for the crown court route and you lose, you will also have a criminal record which you may have to disclose to employers and suchlike, and a punishment: in theory that could be prison, but given the nature of the offence and the fact that all the jails are full, a fine (more money to pay) and/or community service would be overwhelmingly more likely.

 

[Haywain]

For incidents over 6 months ago TOC's are actively taking these to the county courts to reclaim the money, they will need to prove to the court that you owe them the money.

And it's worth bearing in mind that the burden of proof in the county court will be lower than in the magistrates court. For civil matters the proof is "on the balance of probabilities", rather than beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[RJ]

It seems to me a lot of this behaviour has become more prevalent since the era of e-tickets.

Some TOCs now employ people specifically to look for e-ticket irregularities. It almost seems like some people want to get done for it as it's obvious a very clear paper trail is being left.

 

[Haywain]

it's obvious a very clear paper trail is being left

A paperless paper trail!

 

[RJ]

A paperless paper trail!

Yep, one of those

 

[HurdyGurdy]

A paperless paper trail!

According to the OP, the train company were initially saying he owed them over £900 because he didn't have a railcard. He was able to show that he did have a railcard, so apparently their records were wrong on that account.

The thing is, if your train has been cancelled and you decide not to travel, you're entitled to a refund. But what do you do, if 3 years later the train company writes to tell you their records show that the ticket was used for travel? How do you show that you did not use the ticket and their records are wrong?

 

[Brissle Girl]

According to the OP, the train company were initially saying he owed them over £900 because he didn't have a railcard. He was able to show that he did have a railcard, so apparently their records were wrong on that account.

The thing is, if your train has been cancelled and you decide not to travel, you're entitled to a refund. But what do you do, if 3 years later the train company writes to tell you their records show that the ticket was used for travel? How do you show that you did not use the ticket and their records are wrong?

I would write back, explain that it's unreasonable for me to still have any evidence in relation to travel plans and ticketing that far back, explain my position to the best of my recollection of that period, and ask what concrete (as opposed to circumstantial) evidence the company has that the tickets were used.

 

[185]

Wouldn't be surprised if there is a small handful of "concrete" instances of fraud (evidence of travelling and refunding) thus the company is considering all refunded journeys as fraudulent, speculatively - hence where their settlement amount came from. If the passenger is unwilling to pay their settlement for all those journeys, they might prosecute on just two or three of the "concrete" journeys in a mags court - for a marginally lower amount but probably attracting a criminal conviction. Many would see the settlement as a bargain.

 

[island]

they might prosecute on just two or three of the "concrete" journeys in a mags court

Can’t. Way outside the time limit.

 

[simonw]

Can’t. Way outside the time limit.

Not for a charge of fraud, it's not.

 

[island]

Not for a charge of fraud, it's not.

But the post I quoted referred to prosecuting two or three journeys in the magistrates court.

I've yet to hear of any TOCs as much as laying a fraud prosecution, much less one succeeding.

 

[paul1609]

According to the OP, the train company were initially saying he owed them over £900 because he didn't have a railcard. He was able to show that he did have a railcard, so apparently their records were wrong on that account.

I always think it strange that the rail industry doesn't validate and link railcards to a ticket at the time of purchase. I have a National Express Coachcard and you have to enter the serial number and date before getting a discount. Would seem to eliminate so many on train hassles I witness.

 

[Haywain]

I always think it strange that the rail industry doesn't validate and link railcards to a ticket at the time of purchase. I have a National Express Coachcard and you have to enter the serial number and date before getting a discount. Would seem to eliminate so many on train hassles I witness.

But that's quite simple for NX as one retailer dealing with their own products. Including stations there are huge numbers of places you can buy a railcard and a similar multitude of retailers where you can use one.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I always think it strange that the rail industry doesn't validate and link railcards to a ticket at the time of purchase. I have a National Express Coachcard and you have to enter the serial number and date before getting a discount. Would seem to eliminate so many on train hassles I witness.

There's no record on ticket office purchase serial numbers.

You don't need to own a railcard when purchasing a ticket-only when travelling.

You can purchase tickets for other people.

Other people can purchase tickets for you.

If you freely give your railcard number to someone else so they can buy you tickets, it renders the system pointless.

 

[MotCO]

I would write back, explain that it's unreasonable for me to still have any evidence in relation to travel plans and ticketing that far back, explain my position to the best of my recollection of that period, and ask what concrete (as opposed to circumstantial) evidence the company has that the tickets were used.

If the OP put the ticket 'through the barrier', but the train was cancelled and the OP decided not to travel, then would the ticket show up as being used, even though travel was not undertaen? How could you remember three years on?

 

[RyanOPlasty]

If the OP put the ticket 'through the barrier', but the train was cancelled and the OP decided not to travel, then would the ticket show up as being used, even though travel was not undertaen? How could you remember three years on?

There are no barriers at either Nuneaton or Atherstone. An anytime Day return is £5 without a railcard. The journey time is about 6 minutes, so unlikely that a ticket would be inspected on the train in that time. We need more information from the OP about the contents of the letter from LNW?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I always think it strange that the rail industry doesn't validate and link railcards to a ticket at the time of purchase. I have a National Express Coachcard and you have to enter the serial number and date before getting a discount. Would seem to eliminate so many on train hassles I witness.

Because, as is said many time on here, you don't need to have a railcard to purchase a ticket with railcard discount applied. Whether that should be the case is another story

There are no barriers at either Nuneaton or Atherstone. An anytime Day return is £5 without a railcard. The journey time is about 6 minutes, so unlikely that a ticket would be inspected on the train in that time. We need more information from the OP about the contents of the letter from LNW?

Especially given its been mostly 8 car working in this time frame, almost impossible to ticket check the front 4 between those stations given Atherstone is a UDS 4 car station..... And the majority of passengers travelling between those station know it.

I can only presume it's been flagged due to excessive refunds, unless the OP was caught at some point without a ticket, or staff scanned an already refunded ticket.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I always think it strange that the rail industry doesn't validate and link railcards to a ticket at the time of purchase. I have a National Express Coachcard and you have to enter the serial number and date before getting a discount. Would seem to eliminate so many on train hassles I witness.

Personally, I would hate to be delayed at a TVM by having to type in my railcard serial number when buying a ticket, just because a small minority of people purchase discounted tickets to which they are not entitled

 

[paul1609]

Personally, I would hate to be delayed at a TVM by having to type in my railcard serial number when buying a ticket, just because a small minority of people purchase discounted tickets to which they are not entitled

I dont really use TVMs anymore as Id be missing out on the Virgin points but surely it would be just a case of scanning the railcard or its chip just like loading it to an ITSO card or you could be revolutionary and load the ticket to the railcard.
My experience of seeing ticket checks where the railcard is asked for throughout the Uk is that over 50% of 16-25 railcards will either be out of date or left at home. Im sure that some of the conductors or rpis can provide better information than me.

 

[farleigh]

Wouldn't be surprised if there is a small handful of "concrete" instances of fraud (evidence of travelling and refunding) thus the company is considering all refunded journeys as fraudulent, speculatively - hence where their settlement amount came from. If the passenger is unwilling to pay their settlement for all those journeys, they might prosecute on just two or three of the "concrete" journeys in a mags court - for a marginally lower amount but probably attracting a criminal conviction. Many would see the settlement as a bargain.

i would not see it as a bargain at all.

1. There is no sign of any 'concrete evidence' - they should produce it if it exists.
2. In any case, it is unreasonable for 'the company' to extrapolate from any 'concrete' instances. and assert that all other journeys have been incorrectly refunded.
3. The company has already been proven wrong in accusing the OP of not having a railcard.

If you did not refund dishonestly, then tell them this. You should absolutely not pay if this is the case.

 

[Llanigraham]

I dont really use TVMs anymore as Id be missing out on the Virgin points but surely it would be just a case of scanning the railcard or its chip just like loading it to an ITSO card or you could be revolutionary and load the ticket to the railcard.
My experience of seeing ticket checks where the railcard is asked for throughout the Uk is that over 50% of 16-25 railcards will either be out of date or left at home. Im sure that some of the conductors or rpis can provide better information than me.

My Railcard does not contain a chip, photo or any scannable iconography.

 

[sheff1]

3. The company has already been proven wrong in accusing the OP of not having a railcard.

The accusation that the OP did not have a railcard is clearly is based on no evidence at all as the OP had, and could produce, a valid railcard. Makes you wonder if they have any evidence for the alleged fraud.

The OP will know whether they have made refund claims on tickets which have been used and how they best deal with the matter will depend on whether they have, or have not, done that.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s not clear whatsoever what has happened as the OP has not returned. Any speculation is a bit futile. We can’t offer any meaningful help unless the OP fills us in on their situation.

 

[Wallsendmag]

There's no record on ticket office purchase serial numbers.

As it's panto season, Oh yes there is, or at least should be if Ticket Offices are sending the application forms away to be processed.

 

[Deafdoggie]

As it's panto season, Oh yes there is, or at least should be if Ticket Offices are sending the application forms away to be processed.

Where are they put whilst waiting to be processed...behind you!