'Big man' vs Sam Main incident (final decision: no charges for either)

[Watto1990]

I hope the 'big man' can enjoy some Xmas cheers, after his life has been ruined by woollies, cry-babies, bed-wetters, bleeding-hearts, Guardian readers, leftards and apologists

Anything that makes someone who unironically uses "leftard" this angry must a priori be a good thing.

 

[IanXC]

I wonder how many of the people commenting here saying the guard should have done this, that and the other. And he was this, that and the other have ever actually been in the same situation and used the advice they are giving.

I have resisted posting on this thread up till now but the example of the VT train manager on the Carlisle service has persuaded me what I think would be the correct course of action for a guard.

I do work in a customer facing role, and have been assaulted in the course of my duties.

As essentially the original dispute centred on a ticketing irregularity I'd say the appropriate action would be to issue a UPFN(?). Taking the heat out of the situation by showing the passenger due process is being followed, avoiding a delay and a potentially more difficult situation to evolving. This clearly becomes more effective with use of CCTV and\or guards taking photographs.

Much as there's a case for dealing with the suspected fare dodger harshly the likelihood is that its going to escalate matters to a whole new level. And for a few pounds of farebox?

Using any kind of force, and indeed coming down to the passengers level by shouting "OFF" repeatedly is never ever going to improve the situation in my opinion. When working in such an isolated situation surely personal safety must come first.

What I admit I do not know is whether the passenger was known to the guard or whether he refused to give details

 

[Flamingo]

UPFN's take about 10+ minutes to fill in, and depend, not least, on the co-operation of the person who the notice is being issued to. Verification of the name and address also takes time.

In view of the attitude of Mr Mills, I would personally be very doubtful that a UPFN would have been possible in this case, as he was so agitated and aggressive that I would be very surprised if he would have then furnished his contact details. However, I would personally have asked for them, as by refusing to furnish them he is now committing the offense of traveling without a ticket, aand further action can be taken.

If a low-value fare, the pragmatic approach of a lot of guards is just chuck the bugger off, any amount recovered from a UPFN is is no way going to cover the hassle involved in issuing and collecting it.

Indeed, I am viewed as unusual in that I actually carry a UPFN pad on me, not just in my kitbag. I know a lot of guards who say they have never issued one.

 

[sonorguy]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I take your point, but did Mr Pollock use 'excessive force' when we consider how bouncers handle these situations. Or even the police.

Yes, I know these people are authorized to perform such actions, but what constitutes 'excessive force'?

Yes he did, he's clearly not trained in how you restrain someone, it's particularly obvious during his second intervention.

Any response must be proportional and reasonable. The first intervention is more arguable but oversteps the mark as Pollock doesn't ask him to leave first or attempt to de-escalate the situation, he just grabs him.

The second is a clear assault as it's neither reasonable or proportionate, (he could have got off the train and just pulled Main with him, the weight differential is so great) and any bouncer, mental health nurse or police officer who did that would quite possibly be charged, and if one of my employees dismissed outright (I manage a secure psychiatric hospital and we've dismissed for less than what's in the video before).

As I've said previously, people have died being handled in this way and the people who did handling have been jailed for it.

 

[Geezertronic]

As I've said previously, people have died being handled in this way and the people who did handling have been jailed for it.

An over-reaction if ever I read one..... yes it happens but I would like some figures to suggest the percentage before a comment like that can be quantified

 

[AlterEgo]

An over-reaction if ever I read one..... yes it happens but I would like some figures to suggest the percentage before a comment like that can be quantified

Indeed. People have died from just about everything, including the stress and shock of being verbally abused.

 

[Nym]

Indeed. People have died from just about everything, including the stress and shock of being verbally abused.

Especially when getting near retirement?

 

[Flamingo]

As I've said previously, people have died being handled in this way and the people who did handling have been jailed for it.

To quote Judge Judy, "Wouldda, shouldda, couldda!"

 

[Nym]

As I've said previously, people have died being handled in this way and the people who did handling have been jailed for it.

Ohhh I like that logic, People have survived a GSW to the head too, that mean I can take an AR15 Armalite in to see my old boss at BSS? On the chance she'll survive?

 

[Flamingo]

I came across an interesting post on another forum, which puts what may be some interesting information about Mr Main into the public domain...

http://railchat.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25301&start=70#p428891

.... Sam Main was a regular (possibly daily) traveller on the route he was on and has caused issues for significantly more than one conductor if bothy talk is to be believed. If they'd all followed the proper procedures a problem like Sam Main (regular fare dodger travelling at regular times) could have been easily nipped in the bud a long time ago.

 

[amcluesent]

All too believable. Main knows all about rights, nothing about responsibility. On a positive note, this kerfuffle being recorded on the web for ever means his life is blighted.

 

[Red Dragon]

Twerp? last time I watched the Vid he Verbally assaulted the Conductor, was an arrogant little s***e and a member of the public had enough and ejected him from the Train, A Twerp??? I don't think so

Wholeheartedly agree with you NorthernGuard.

I was involved in an incident a few years ago travelling from Paddington to Moreton in Marsh with a guy who was being very objectionable to the other pax, but I dealt with it using humour and by belittling him - he left the carriage. However the guy I was dealing with wasn't smashed, but he was very abusive and quite threatening. A passenger rang BTP to attend at Reading but we didn't see BTP.

I think the round of applause by the rest of the passengers in the video, and the applause and thanks I received when I left the train at Moreton with my wife said it all.
Unfortunately lots of people look on in these situations but are never prepared to help.

Another instance which really brought it home to me was when I lived in Bramhall, Cheshire - outside my house a neighbour was being stabbed so I went out and eventually got the knife off the guy doing the stabbing, only to be told by a neighbour the next day, that he had seen it all happening - but did nothing to help. I couldn't have lived with my conscience, but he could.
In difficult times and circumstances some people come to your assistance and others don't or won't. We're all different.

 

[Flamingo]

All too believable. Main knows all about rights, nothing about responsibility. On a positive note, this kerfuffle being recorded on the web for ever means his life is blighted.

Lots of employers look up Facebook and Google prospective employees. I suspect you might be right.

 

[Nym]

Lots of employers look up Facebook and Google prospective employees. I suspect you might be right.

Hence why googling my real name comes up with very little

 

[Flamingo]

Hence why googling my real name comes up with very little

Me neither . Good opsec and persec!

 

[Nym]

Googling my screen name of parts of my email address doesn't come up with much either, since all the naughty sites I'm on with this name aren't indexed

 

[LondonJohn]

All too believable. Main knows all about rights, nothing about responsibility. On a positive note, this kerfuffle being recorded on the web for ever means his life is blighted.

"Big Man"s employers are also chuffed at the publicity this has got the esteemed investment banker (not) charged with alleged assault. Looks like his life is blighted too...

 

[cointreau_rove]

"Big Man"s employers are also chuffed at the publicity this has got the esteemed investment banker (not) charged with alleged assault. Looks like his life is blighted too...

Therein lies the whole point of the "rule of law" - right or wrong, fair or unfair it is all we have got despite what many would think here. There cannot be a level that says it is K to assault someone and nothing should be done, strike a gold medal especially after verbal abuse ticket misconduvt. We have had what is verbal abuse on here for those that do not support the "namg em high" enclave on here- so it becomes OK to name call (sorry abuse) other forum members down to the level of "Bedwetters ????) or is that just a jest or a jape herein?

I see the results of issues where the rule of law is seen as an absolute and whether there is a way forward with Judge Dredd - sorry we fought for centuries to get a system backed by the Magna Carta that has guaranteed justice through the courts with the monarch sitting in judgement (well the Judge is the moanatch in situ) and a Jury of Peers to decide Guilt or Not. We lose that at all our peril and perhaps many on here who are good god fearing Trades Unionists will have forgotten the congress of 1868 that set down a way for the working man to NOT be murdered by the owners of industry who did not want unions in their business?

I have been away and have followed this debate on my smartphone. Interestingly on a train before Xmas I saw someone getting a peak time train and trying to pass of te return portion of his saver - despite the announcement by the train manager announicing the restrictions. Lo and behold the passenger lost it with the ticket checker and much swearing. I did resist the urge to thrown him off the train bodily - but then he had no silly hat though drunk - I did not want to sciff his suit and tie. He got off at the next station without recourse to an uprising of passengers.

Despite everything I do wish all on here greetings of the season and for the special people who work our trains and have to face the kind of issues that are unpleasant (including the depressed suicide jumping in front of speeding trains) - my best wishes for a stress free 2012 and hopefully the complimenrts of the passengers. Good luck to all

C

 

[Chew Chew]

The conductor involved is back at work.

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-e...or_back_at_work_after_youtube_video_1_2095319

 

[Minilad]

Excellent news. Seems like he is an enthusiast as well !!

 

[DEAN MURPHY]

I am so glad he is back at work. I hope he didn't get a disciplinary for this. I think that big guy was right in what he had done to help-I would have done the a same thing.
And if the boy is complaining about the man handling and the way he was thrown off the train-tough! He was asked to go and he didn't, so he went the hard way. Little s+++s like that need a good lesson in manners. Rant over....say what you like now!

 

[the sniper]

Rant over....say what you like now!

We've said everything already in the last 64 pages.

Glad the chap is back at work. Looks like he's a proper BR old boy.

 

[DEAN MURPHY]

No...I meant have a go at me for what I said!!

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Not a good day for fare dodgers!!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Good day for vigilantes though? I believe the big man has been charged and quite rightly too.

In your oipinion of course, to the majority of us who deal with scroates like the fare evader all day long he deserves a medal!

 

[Anon Mouse]

In your oipinion of course, to the majority of us who deal with scroates like the fare evader all day long he deserves a medal!

Hear Hear!

 

[Flamingo]

In your oipinion of course, to the majority of us who deal with scroates like the fare evader all day long he deserves a medal!

Don't forget, there are a small number of "rail enthusiasts" out there who are by no means honest, and view being forced to pay for their hobby as a breach of their Human Rights. They would view the actions of the Big Man (or anybody else forcing them to buy valid tickets) with dismay, and would welcome anything that they could use as leverage in a similar situation.

By the law of averages, some of them must be members of this forum.

 

[Nonsense]

Don't forget, there are a small number of "rail enthusiasts" out there who are by no means honest, and view being forced to pay for their hobby as a breach of their Human Rights. They would view the actions of the Big Man (or anybody else forcing them to buy valid tickets) with dismay, and would welcome anything that they could use as leverage in a similar situation.

By the law of averages, some of them must be members of this forum.

Also remember, that some members of this forum haven't entirely lost their grip on reality and can still see that assault, without exception, is a serious crime. A crime greater than the minor offense of fare evasion. In this instance the has scroat the higher ground.

Justice isn't delivered by he nearest thug and no one under the misguided belief that it is should receive the slightest bit of support. And punishment should not be withheld.

But I would say that wouldn't I. I did travel without a ticket once or twice. :roll:

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think its more about common sense to be honest. People get away with much more on a night in town, without charge.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Also remember, that some members of this forum haven't entirely lost their grip on reality and can still see that assault, without exception, is a serious crime. A crime greater than the minor offense of fare evasion. In this instance the has scroat the higher ground.

Justice isn't delivered by he nearest thug and no one under the misguided belief that it is should receive the slightest bit of support. And punishment should not be withheld.

But I would say that wouldn't I. I did travel without a ticket once or twice. :roll:

A hero to the staff a thug to others

Strange :roll:


Staff have to deal with the S***e day in day out while the majority of people turn a "blind eye"

Good on the "Big Man" ! shame on the people who look the other way