Birmingham to Bradford: Not able to buy extra ticket onboard then threatened with PF at Bradford?

[Eric]

Hopefully this will make sense.

Earlier on today I was traveling back from Birmingham to Leeds on advanced tickets, but my final destination was Bradford.

I asked the Cross Country train manager when he inspected my ticket for a single to Bradford but he said he didn’t have the facility to sell one at this particular point and advised for me to get one on the next train.

On arrival at Leeds, there was a train to Bradford Interchange leaving from the adjacent platform, so I boarded knowing that I could get a ticket.

On leaving Leeds, the service full and standing in the middle and ends, the guard never once checked any tickets or attempted to sell me one.

On arrival at Bradford Interchange, I went to the gate staff manager/leader and asked for a single with senior railcard from Leeds to which he refused, saying I should have bought my ticket before boarding the train.

I explained the above and he simply didn’t believe what I was saying. Things got heated when he started mentioning penalty fares, so I demanded to speak to the person above him.

A gentleman from the ticket office came out and could see I was worked up and upset by what had happened and just swiped a card on the gate and let me through into the ticket office where I purchased a single Leeds to Bradford with railcard discount.

My question is, who is right? Did I just happen to fall foul to an over zealous gate manager or is the station manager and the cross country train manager correct?

I wonder how many people they catch out like this,, but thankfully I felt I had to stand my ground because it wasn’t my fault I couldn’t physically purchase a ticket on either train before I arrived in Bradford.

 

[AlterEgo]

The person on the gate was correct. You need to purchase your ticket before you board the train, having passed two opportunities to pay - first at Birmingham and then at Leeds. You should visit the ticket office, or a TVM, or buy online or via mobile.

 

[cactustwirly]

@AlterEgo is correct, you should only buy on board the train as an option of last resort (ie no other opportunity)
You technically committed an offence under the Railway Byelaws by travelling without a valid ticket.
You are very luckily that you were'nt given a Penalty Fare/Prosecuted.
In fact, in the South East, you can't buy a ticket onboard many of the trains.

 

[Esker-pades]

I'm slightly confused. In my days of season ticket travel from home to school, I would occasionally need to go from school straight to Central London. My season ticket convered most of the distance. Once I got to Charing Cross, I would present my season ticket at the barriers and ask to buy an extension. I never had any problems. I was always allowed through to buy a ticket.

(For information, my season ticket covered something similar to, but not actually, Lewisham to Knockholt. Lewisham being the location of my house, and Knockholt where I went to school. So, I would take a train direct from Knockholt to Charing Cross, and buy a Lewisham to Charing Cross return at the ticket machines there.)

 

[najaB]

My question is, who is right?

You have to buy your ticket at the earliest possible opportunity. Since you had the chance to buy at Birmingham, you were in the wrong.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I disagree that @Eric did anything wrong. Yes, boarding a train without a valid ticket, or failing to present a valid ticket upon demand, is a strict liability offence under Railway Byelaw 18. However, there are a few defences - the relevant and applicable one here being if you have permission from an authorised member of staff to board a train without a valid ticket.

You did the right thing in approaching the XC train manager before Leeds, and asking to buy a fare to extend your journey. As he refused to do sell you the necessary fare, and specifically instructed you to buy the ticket onboard the next train, you arguably not only had the above-mentioned permission to board without a valid ticket, but, if the connection was tight, no opportunity to buy a valid ticket before boarding (which is another defence to a Byelaw 18 charge).

The ticket gate staff members' suggestion of a Penalty Fare was entirely incorrect - as you started your journey at a station whose Penalty Scheme doesn't include Northern (Birmingham), and it is extrnelry unlikely you passed a notice compliant with the requirememts set under the Penalty Fares Regulations whilst changing at Leeds. Of course they could still offer a Penalty Fare as an alternative to prosecution - even if it's procedurally incorrect to do so.

In future, if your travel plans change en-route I would simply buy the new ticket you need online (on an app, mobile website or on any laptop/tablet you've got on you), and then arrange such that you can pick up the tickets at your interchange station, or alternatively get an e-ticket or m-ticket. However what you did is arguably still acceptable, though trying to buy a ticket as above is probably still likely to cause fewer problems.

 

[sheff1]

You have to buy your ticket at the earliest possible opportunity. Since you had the chance to buy at Birmingham, you were in the wrong.

Do the ticket machines at Birmingham sell tickets from another station ? If not, would the booking office sell one from Leeds to Bradford ?

Either way, there is no requirement for the OP to buy a Leeds to Bradford ticket at any point before Leeds, no matter how many opportunities to do so might be available.

 

[323235]

I agree that the barrier staff to a large degree were correct - If you knew before boarding at Birmingham that you needed to buy an excess / additional ticket to Bradford you ideally should have done it then , you tried to do it on the XC and couldn't which is fine as no offence had been commited.

On arrival at Leeds your contract ended therefore you needed to buy before boarding to avoid fouling Byelaw 18.

A penalty fare for an honest mistake would have been the correct course of action for unintentionally boarding a train without a valid ticket where facilities exist UNLESS the train was late and would have delayed an official (10 minute?) connection.

On the flipside the XC guard said you could buy it on the next train which strictly speaking counts as authority for Byelaw 18 however if asked by his employer to confirm he gave authority to breach company policy and railway bylaws and also forget penalty fare legislation (which applies on Northern) I highly doubt a guard would be willing to honour that unless there was a specific reason for this such as being a disabled passenger.

The ticket office man was however reasonable and used his discretion which was lucky and staff are permitted to do.

 

[AlterEgo]

Either way, there is no requirement for the OP to buy a Leeds to Bradford ticket at any point before Leeds, no matter how many opportunities to do so might be available.

Assuming he was always intending to go to Bradford the OP’s first opportunity to pay was at Birmingham, where, at the start of his journey, he walked past an open ticket office.

Once the passenger has alighted at Leeds and has no ticket, his contract - his journey - has finished, and he must buy another before boarding and starting the next journey.

Had the trains all gone up the spout in Leeds when he arrived, without any ticket he doesn’t have a contract to travel, and would not be entitled to onward travel or accommodation. His journey would be considered finished even if he wanted to go on to Bradford.

Discuss.

 

[Eric]

I agree that the barrier staff to a large degree were correct - If you knew before boarding at Birmingham that you needed to buy an excess / additional ticket to Bradford you ideally should have done it then , you tried to do it on the XC and couldn't which is fine as no offence had been commited.

On arrival at Leeds your contract ended therefore you needed to buy before boarding to avoid fouling Byelaw 18.

Therefore charging a penalty fare for an honest mistake would have been correct.

On the flipside the XC guard said you could buy it on the next train which strictly speaking counts as authority for Byelaw 18 however if asked by his employer to confirm he gave authority to breach company policy and railway bylaws and also forget penalty fare legislation (which applies on Northern) I highly doubt a guard would be willing to honour that.

Thanks for the reply.

I was actually in the queue at New Street to buy the Leeds to Bradford ticket but the big queue didn’t go down enough and I left for the platform with ten minutes to my departure.

I think what helped me with the ticket office member of staff at the Interchange was I had the New Street - Leeds ticket still in my possession with the guards mark on it.

 

[Eric]

Assuming he was always intending to go to Bradford the OP’s first opportunity to pay was at Birmingham, where, at the start of his journey, he walked past an open ticket office.

Once the passenger has alighted at Leeds and has no ticket, his contract - his journey - has finished, and he must buy another before boarding and starting the next journey.

Had the trains all gone up the spout in Leeds when he arrived, without any ticket he doesn’t have a contract to travel, and would not be entitled to onward travel or accommodation. His journey would be considered finished even if he wanted to go on to Bradford.

Discuss.

So the Cross Country train manager doesn’t over rule the Northern gate staff?

I appreciate I should have bought the Leeds -Bradford ticket before arriving at the Interchange gates, but in my opinion I was acting on what I had been told.

I fully expected the guard to come and check the tickets out of Leeds.

Cheers for the advice.

 

[323235]

So the Cross Country train manager doesn’t over rule the Northern gate staff?

I appreciate I should have bought the Leeds -Bradford ticket before arriving at the Interchange gates, but in my opinion I was acting on what I had been told.

I fully expected the guard to come and check the tickets out of Leeds.

Cheers for the advice.

As you did not buy a ticket at Leeds and had already breached byelaw 18, you joined a train with a guard onboard whose primary role is safety and time keeping,

There is no guarantee of a safety critical guard coming round and selling tickets (less so when joining at a barriered station) therefore it would always be risky.

 

[sheff1]

Assuming he was always intending to go to Bradford the OP’s first opportunity to pay was at Birmingham, where, at the start of his journey, he walked past an open ticket office.

Once the passenger has alighted at Leeds and has no ticket, his contract - his journey - has finished, and he must buy another before boarding and starting the next journey.

Had the trains all gone up the spout in Leeds when he arrived, without any ticket he doesn’t have a contract to travel, and would not be entitled to onward travel or accommodation. His journey would be considered finished even if he wanted to go on to Bradford.

Discuss.

1. The fact that there is an open ticket office does not mean they will sell the ticket a passenger requires/requests (see posts about Sheffield passim)

2. Agree he must buy a ticket before travelling onwards to Bradford.

3. Depends whether there was "an opportunity to purchase". Asking and being refused does not, in my opinion, class as on opportunity. As an aside, when I have needed onward travel after missing a last connection or everything has gone t*ts up I have never actually been asked to show a ticket.

 

[najaB]

If not, would the booking office sell one from Leeds to Bradford ?

Lead ticket offices can (and should) sell any valid ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

1. The fact that there is an open ticket office does not mean they will sell the ticket a passenger requires/requests (see posts about Sheffield passim)

Birmingham New Street ticket office will sell you that ticket. So will the TVMs.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So the Cross Country train manager doesn’t over rule the Northern gate staff?

I appreciate I should have bought the Leeds -Bradford ticket before arriving at the Interchange gates, but in my opinion I was acting on what I had been told.

I fully expected the guard to come and check the tickets out of Leeds.

Cheers for the advice.

The CrossCountry train manager can indeed overrule the Northern barrier line staff, as in your case he did not provide you with an opportunity to buy your ticket, and he instead gave you permission to board the next train without a valid ticket. CrossCountry and Northern openly admit on their trains' livery that they are owned by the same company - Arriva - though this makes no difference as to whether the CrossCountry train manager could overrule the Northern gate line staff. An LNER or TransPennine Express train manager could just as well give you permission to board the next train without a valid ticket.

I don't think you did anything wrong here - others are suggesting you committed a Byelaw offence in boarding the connecting train without a valid ticket, but I would argue that, whilst this would ordinarily be the case, the fact you were given explicit permission to board without a valid ticket means you would have had a defence to any such prosecution.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Lead ticket offices can (and should) sell any valid ticket.

Try telling that to the unfortunate passengers who suffer under the likes of London Underground "managed" National Rail stations - like Stratford London - who refuse to sell the full range of available tickets!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

As you did not buy a ticket at Leeds and had already breached byelaw 18, you joined a train with a guard onboard whose primary role is safety and time keeping,

There is no guarantee of a safety critical guard coming round and selling tickets (less so when joining at a barriered station) therefore it would always be risky.

The CrossCountry train manager clearly gave the OP verbal permission to board the onward train without a valid ticket. Hence no Byelaw 18 offence was committed in OP boarding the train.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Assuming he was always intending to go to Bradford the OP’s first opportunity to pay was at Birmingham, where, at the start of his journey, he walked past an open ticket office.

Once the passenger has alighted at Leeds and has no ticket, his contract - his journey - has finished, and he must buy another before boarding and starting the next journey.

Had the trains all gone up the spout in Leeds when he arrived, without any ticket he doesn’t have a contract to travel, and would not be entitled to onward travel or accommodation. His journey would be considered finished even if he wanted to go on to Bradford.

Discuss.

From a contract law perspective, I would tentatively agree that once OP has reached the end of where his already obtained tickets take him, then that is that and he can't expect onward travel or accomodation if he faces disruption at that point. Arguably however, once he gets onboard the next train another implied contract for travel exists, although the OP may be 'in debt' as he has not yet paid the fare.

However, from a criminal law perspective, since the CrossCountry train manager gave OP permission to board the onwards train without a valid ticket (rather than, for example, instructing him to leave the station barriers and go to the ticket office), no offence was committed and the OP was entitled to buy a ticket onboard the train, or at the next subsequent opportunity (in his case, the Bradford barriers).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

A penalty fare for an honest mistake would have been the correct course of action for unintentionally boarding a train without a valid ticket where facilities exist UNLESS the train was late and would have delayed an official (10 minute?) connection.

As I have previously stated, I very much doubt a Penalty Fare would be appropriate in OP's circumstances, because, notwithstanding the fact that he was given permission to board the onward train without a valid ticket by the XC train manager, he firstly boarded at a station outside the Northern Penalty Fare zone (Birmingham), and secondly he is almost certain not to have passed a Penalty Fares Regulations compliant notice whilst changing from the XC train to the Northern train.

 

[AlterEgo]

From a contract law perspective, I would tentatively agree that once OP has reached the end of where his already obtained tickets take him, then that is that and he can't expect onward travel or accomodation if he faces disruption at that point. Arguably however, once he gets onboard the next train another implied contract for travel exists, although the OP may be 'in debt' as he has not yet paid the fare.

However, from a criminal law perspective, since the CrossCountry train manager gave OP permission to board the onwards train without a valid ticket (rather than, for example, instructing him to leave the station barriers and go to the ticket office), no offence was committed and the OP was entitled to buy a ticket onboard the train, or at the next subsequent opportunity (in his case, the Bradford barriers).

So, once the OP arrives in Leeds and his ticket from Birmingham to Leeds expires, and he has no onward ticket, his contract with the TOCs expires. End of journey.

He then starts a second journey from Leeds. Penalty Fares rules therefore apply. He should have purchased his ticket before getting on board. I don’t agree that a CrossCountry TM can authorise boarding a train on a completely separate journey in a PF area.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So, once the OP arrives in Leeds and his ticket from Birmingham to Leeds expires, and he has no onward ticket, his contract with the TOCs expires. End of journey.

He then starts a second journey from Leeds. Penalty Fares rules therefore apply. He should have purchased his ticket before getting on board. I don’t agree that a CrossCountry TM can authorise boarding a train on a completely separate journey in a PF area.

I think the issue of whether or not it's a separate journey is a red herring - that's a contract law issue which might be relevant if we were considering whether OP was entitled to delay compensation or if they could take a later than booked train with an Advance. However, none of those issues are in consideration here, only the criminal law issue of whether or not OP committed a Byelaw 18 offence and/or was liable for a Penalty Fare for what he did.

Both Byelaw 18(3), which details the defences to an offence captured by Byelaws 18(1) or 18(2), and Regulations 6(2) and 6(3) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, which detail the circumstances in which no Penalty Fare should be issued, make clear that in the circumstances the OP has described, there was no Byelaw offence committed, nor would a Penalty Fare be appropriate.

Byelaw 25(1)(i) specifically defines what an "authorised person" is for the purposes of the Byelaws; the argument that a CrossCountry train manager is not an authorised person (whether for the purpose of a ticket inspection, or issuing permission to buy on board) is simply unsustainable. Equally, Regulation 6(2)(d) of the Penalty Fares Regulations makes clear that the CrossCountry train manager would undoubtedly be deemed authorised to give permission to buy on board.

 

[Hadders]

So the Cross Country train manager doesn’t over rule the Northern gate staff?

It's how you prove it. Effectively it's a 'the man on the platform said' type of discussion.

In fairness to the barrier staff at Leeds they'll have heard every single excuse going. The thing to do would've been to get the XC Train Manager to endorse your ticket saying he was unable to sell you the ticket you needed.

 

[cactustwirly]

I think the issue of whether or not it's a separate journey is a red herring - that's a contract law issue which might be relevant if we were considering whether OP was entitled to delay compensation or if they could take a later than booked train with an Advance. However, none of those issues are in consideration here, only the criminal law issue of whether or not OP committed a Byelaw 18 offence and/or was liable for a Penalty Fare for what he did.

Both Byelaw 18(3), which details the defences to an offence captured by Byelaws 18(1) or 18(2), and Regulations 6(2) and 6(3) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, which detail the circumstances in which no Penalty Fare should be issued, make clear that in the circumstances the OP has described, there was no Byelaw offence committed, nor would a Penalty Fare be appropriate.

Byelaw 25(1)(i) specifically defines what an "authorised person" is for the purposes of the Byelaws; the argument that a CrossCountry train manager is not an authorised person (whether for the purpose of a ticket inspection, or issuing permission to buy on board) is simply unsustainable. Equally, Regulation 6(2)(d) of the Penalty Fares Regulations makes clear that the CrossCountry train manager would undoubtedly be deemed authorised to give permission to buy on board.

But if it went to court, it would be very difficult for the OP to prove that.
Therefore it isn't a defence IMO unless there is physical evidence, such as an endorsement

 

[AlterEgo]

I think the issue of whether or not it's a separate journey is a red herring - that's a contract law issue which might be relevant if we were considering whether OP was entitled to delay compensation or if they could take a later than booked train with an Advance. However, none of those issues are in consideration here, only the criminal law issue of whether or not OP committed a Byelaw 18 offence and/or was liable for a Penalty Fare for what he did.

Both Byelaw 18(3), which details the defences to an offence captured by Byelaws 18(1) or 18(2), and Regulations 6(2) and 6(3) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, which detail the circumstances in which no Penalty Fare should be issued, make clear that in the circumstances the OP has described, there was no Byelaw offence committed, nor would a Penalty Fare be appropriate.

Byelaw 25(1)(i) specifically defines what an "authorised person" is for the purposes of the Byelaws; the argument that a CrossCountry train manager is not an authorised person (whether for the purpose of a ticket inspection, or issuing permission to buy on board) is simply unsustainable. Equally, Regulation 6(2)(d) of the Penalty Fares Regulations makes clear that the CrossCountry train manager would undoubtedly be deemed authorised to give permission to buy on board.

I don’t agree that an authorised person can give unilateral permission to board a different train operated by a different TOC, without a ticket, on a totally different journey. That’s why I pressed the point that the OP made two journeys.

 

[yorkie]

You might not agree but that is what the rules say.

If the OP was travelling from Birmingham on a journey with a final destination of Bradford, he really should have bought all required tickets before commencing his journey (assuming facilities existed for that) however I do not agree that a Penalty Fare would be applicable for Leeds. Are there any PF notices visible when interchanging at Leeds anyway? I do not think there are.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

But if it went to court, it would be very difficult for the OP to prove that.
Therefore it isn't a defence IMO unless there is physical evidence, such as an endorsement

It's a very different situation to "the man on the platform said", because the OP can specifically give the details of the train he was on and the Train Manager involved could therefore be identified by CrossCountry. The Court could summons the Train Manager to be a witness - and, according to what Eric has told us, the TM would be committing perjury if he said that he could "rule out" having given permission to board the train without a ticket.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I don’t agree that an authorised person can give unilateral permission to board a different train operated by a different TOC, without a ticket, on a totally different journey. That’s why I pressed the point that the OP made two journeys.

As @yorkie has said, you might not agree with it, but the rules are clear that it doesn't matter whether the staff member works for XC, Northern, Grand Central or Scotrail for that matter. For the purposes of the Byelaws, if they're working for a TOC then they're an authorised member of staff and so they can give permission. For the purposes of the Penalty Fares Regulations the authorising member of staff, when you are authorised on a previous train, must merely be "the operator of the train or the station, or a person acting or purporting to act on behalf of the operator".

It makes no difference whether or not it's a different journey; the Byelaws make no reference to a journey, and the Penalty Fares Regulations refer merely to a "preceding train" in these circumstances. There is no way you can argue that OP was not on a "preceding train".

As it happens I agree that accepting the XC's permission to board without a ticket was a risky approach, but it is within the rules, and so until such time as they change there is no civil or criminal penalty for following the staff member's instructions.

 

[Coolzac]

Some of the posts on this thread make me laugh. Essentially, customer buys ticket for journey. Wants to extend journey and asks to do this before ticketed journey has ended. Gets permission from authorised person to board next train and purchase ticket. Can't do this so tries at next opportunity to.

Regardless of the fact he didn't break any railway byelaws,in what universe is it good customer service to threaten the customer with a penalty in this scenario? Most companies welcome people using more of their services and paying for them. Absolutely absurd.

 

[Eric]

Some of the posts on this thread make me laugh. Essentially, customer buys ticket for journey. Wants to extend journey and asks to do this before ticketed journey has ended. Gets permission from authorised person to board next train and purchase ticket. Can't do this so tries at next opportunity to.

Regardless of the fact he didn't break any railway byelaws,in what universe is it good customer service to threaten the customer with a penalty in this scenario? Most companies welcome people using more of their services and paying for them. Absolutely absurd.

That really is how I saw it at the gates at the Interchange. To start hearing talk about penalty fares when I was already on the railway was concerning.

It wasn’t as if I’d jumped over the barrier at Leeds and attempted not to pay.

I legitimately tried three times yesterday to purchase a single Leeds to Bradford ticket with my senior railcard.

Thankfully the ticket office manager at Bradford Interchange was more understanding than the man patrolling the gate.