Birmingham to Bradford: Not able to buy extra ticket onboard then threatened with PF at Bradford?

[AlterEgo]

That's such a leading question, I doubt a magistrate would permit it.

In what way is that a leading question?

 

[transmanche]

Defence solicitor: “Do you remember giving the defendant permission to buy a ticket on board his next train on [date] around [time]?”

That's such a leading question, I doubt a magistrate would permit it.

In what way is that a leading question?

In what way is it not a leading question?

A more suitable way of phrasing it would be to ask the conductor a series of questions. Firstly, to confirm if he was on duty on x train on y date: that's a simple question of fact, like confirming name or address, etc.

Then I'd expect a series of open questions, not closed yes/no questions. Maybe ask a hypothetical question based on an identical scenario "What would you say to a passenger if they asked to purchase a single from Leeds to Bradford?". Maybe ask what the company's policy is. Definitely ask what is his recollection of checking the defendant's ticket and the ensuing conversation. And definitely allow the conductor to answer the question in his own words, not framing it as a yes/no question.

 

[Eric]

Whereas I frequently do split tickets and get the advances asap, but only buy tickets for the missing bit at the start or end of the journey on the day of travel. Why should I spend my money before I have to?

That was the case for me, I purchased the advance from Bradford about 5 five weeks before travelling.

I planned to get the Leeds-Bradford single on the day of travel.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Whereas I frequently do split tickets and get the advances asap, but only buy tickets for the missing bit at the start or end of the journey on the day of travel. Why should I spend my money before I have to?

That was the case for me, I purchased the advance from Bradford about 5 five weeks before travelling.

I planned to get the Leeds-Bradford single on the day of travel.

I'm sure if I gave details of this thread to the many customers we have who buy their walk on fares in advance it would confirm to them that there taking the correct approach. Most of them will say there doing it as they want the reassurance of already having the ticket......

 

[farleigh]

Do rail staff sometimes find It difficult to be flexible or is it deliberate obstructiveness? I can't imagine it is the latter but why else would this staff member have behaved like this?

 

[najaB]

Primark is a business and they don't make money by applying common sense and taking punter's (sorry customers) word for it. They apply laws instead to generate more income. If the security tags weren't there would the customer have paid for that pair of jeans? The answer the privatised clothes store comes up with is probably not.

They therefore charge attempt to prosecute to try and ensure people do in the future to maintain guaranteed income.

In my view this is why there should be very clear rules to prevent train companies from behaving this way, and an end to Penalty Fares.

You'd rather all ticketing irregularities ended up in court (either criminal or civil?) Good way to jam up the legal system.

Maybe ask a hypothetical question based on an identical scenario "What would you say to a passenger if they asked to purchase a single from Leeds to Bradford?".

Any answer that starts with "Normally", "Generally" or "Depending on.." would be of zero assistance to the defendant.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Do rail staff sometimes find It difficult to be flexible or is it deliberate obstructiveness? I can't imagine it is the latter but why else would this staff member have behaved like this?

As has been mentioned upthread the General Public has little idea how many attempts at fare evasion staff come across on a daily basis. All sorts of reasons and excuses are come across and those doing them do not come in a readily identifiable package of age, sex, clothing , color etc but can be all sorts.

A Senior Railcard holder got a bit upset that i asked for her railcard the other day "I'm clearly over 60" she said what she didn't see was the half dozen or so people earlier that day that had come up and asked for a "senior return" who didn't have a senior railcard they too clearly over 60 and looked just like her.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You'd rather all ticketing irregularities ended up in court (either criminal or civil?) Good way to jam up the legal system.

Is it necessary for all such occurrences to go to Court in the absence of a Penalty Fares system? If the train company spent more money on staff, and/or employed staff more efficiently, then they could simply collect the normal fare from travellers when they travel. But no, they insist in criminalising ordinary members of the public with their ludicrous Byelaws because that's much more profitable. There's nothing wrong with the approach that BR took for most of its life - if you fail to buy a ticket it's a civil matter where you simply pay the fare; the only time where the Courts get involved is if you act fraudulently.

Any answer that starts with "Normally", "Generally" or "Depending on.." would be of zero assistance to the defendant.

Absolutely not. If there is any reasonable doubt as to whether the defendant has committed an offence then the defendant must be found not guilty. So any answer other than 'no, I would never do that' would lead towards the necessary doubt.

 

[transmanche]

I'm sure if I gave details of this thread to the many customers we have who buy their walk on fares in advance it would confirm to them that there taking the correct approach.

Jolly good. That's their choice. Other people choose to buy walk-up tickets on the day of travel. An equally valid choice.

Most of them will say there doing it as they want the reassurance of already having the ticket......

It's a shame that the railway's ability to sell a passenger a ticket has become so notoriously poor (long queues at ticket offices, broken TVMs, etc) that some people need the 'reassurance' of buying walk-up tickets long-before actually travelling.

 

[najaB]

Is it necessary for all such occurrences to go to Court in the absence of a Penalty Fares system? If the train company spent more money on staff, and/or employed staff more efficiently...

That's never going to happen - the additional costs will *way* outweigh the additional revenue and, in any case, presumes that 100% of passengers want and intend to pay their fare.

Absolutely not. If there is any reasonable doubt as to whether the defendant has committed an offence then the defendant must be found not guilty. So any answer other than 'no, I would never do that' would lead towards the necessary doubt.

Only if the later question "Did you give Mr X permission" isn't answered with "No."

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Only if the later question "Did you give Mr X permission" isn't answered with "No."

If you can't remember, you don't answer no. So either you think the TM would lie in Court or that an answer of "maybe" wouldn't get the defendant off the charge.

 

[Eric]

If you can't remember, you don't answer no. So either you think the TM would lie in Court or that an answer of "maybe" wouldn't get the defendant off the charge.

The Cross Country train manager was a gentleman called Keith (looked to be in his mid 50s), he stamped my ticket with one of those date stampers.

He gave me permission to purchase the Leeds to Bradford ticket on the next train.

Why would he lie and say that he didn’t give me permission?

 

[Eric]

If anything comes from my experience is that the railway needs to make everything simpler for staff and passengers.

Currently there appears to be too much ambiguity and grey areas.

It’s ok saying buy before you board, but some people genuinely can’t and then get permission from train managers only to be accosted by the gate line staff, who show zero empathy towards the passengers situation.

 

[Haywain]

Why would he lie and say that he didn’t give me permission?

There is no reason to believe he would lie, but why would he remember what he had said to you? You spoke to one train manager whereas he will have spoken to hundreds of passengers.

 

[najaB]

It’s ok saying buy before you board, but some people genuinely can’t and then get permission from train managers only to be accosted by the gate line staff, who show zero empathy towards the passengers situation.

The thing that went wrong here was that the TM should have said "Buy it at Leeds" rather than specifically saying to buy on board.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Jolly good. That's their choice. Other people choose to buy walk-up tickets on the day of travel. An equally valid choice.

It's a shame that the railway's ability to sell a passenger a ticket has become so notoriously poor (long queues at ticket offices, broken TVMs, etc) that some people need the 'reassurance' of buying walk-up tickets long-before actually travelling.

Theirs possibly only 2 maybe 3 trains a week (all on Saturday morning) you wouldn't be able to guarantee to buy a ticket from the ticket office from if you turned up 10 minutes before your train here but people still buy walk on ahead and on the Cambrian conductors sell onboard. This suggests other factors are at play rather than there being a problem with ticket buying facilities.

 

[AlterEgo]

Do rail staff sometimes find It difficult to be flexible or is it deliberate obstructiveness? I can't imagine it is the latter but why else would this staff member have behaved like this?

Posters have already explained why the OP was challenged at Bradford, if that's what you mean?

 

[AlterEgo]

The Cross Country train manager was a gentleman called Keith (looked to be in his mid 50s), he stamped my ticket with one of those date stampers.

He gave me permission to purchase the Leeds to Bradford ticket on the next train.

Why would he lie and say that he didn’t give me permission?

He is not likely to remember speaking to you and even so, he would probably remember it as advice rather than permission.

In any case, I wouldn't like to test what constitutes "permission" in a Court or how far it extends. The Magistrates Court can sometimes be an inconsistent place.

If anything comes from my experience is that the railway needs to make everything simpler for staff and passengers.

Currently there appears to be too much ambiguity and grey areas.

Careful what you wish for. In some countries with railway systems considered better than ours, buy before you board is absolute - no exceptions, whatsoever.

The simplest way to manage ticketing is for 100% of passengers to buy before they board. Then there are no grey areas at all.

 

[bahnause]

Careful what you wish for. In some countries with railway systems considered better than ours, buy before you board is absolute - no exceptions, whatsoever.

I live in one. There are plenty of ticket machines that sell you all kind of tickets from any station to any station (train, bus, boat) with almost every TOC / bus operator, take cash, debit / credit cards and some obscure kind of cheques. They are all connected online, so in a case of a not working ticket machine, the staff can check the system status. Most tickets can be bought online (App) as well. No customer has to go to court for not having a ticket unless fraud is involved. The whole system seems to be more consistent (still far from perfect though).

 

[transmanche]

Theirs possibly only 2 maybe 3 trains a week (all on Saturday morning) you wouldn't be able to guarantee to buy a ticket from the ticket office from if you turned up 10 minutes before your train here but people still buy walk on ahead and on the Cambrian conductors sell onboard. This suggests other factors are at play rather than there being a problem with ticket buying facilities.

I shall repeat exactly what I said in post #74. "Jolly good. That's their choice. Other people choose to buy walk-up tickets on the day of travel. An equally valid choice."

If you want to imply that doing so is somehow wrong or abnormal, then you are on a slippery slope.

 

[transmanche]

Any answer that starts with "Normally", "Generally" or "Depending on.." would be of zero assistance to the defendant.

It was an example of something that is not a leading question, Not an instruction on how to fight the case in court...

 

[Gareth Marston]

I shall repeat exactly what I said in post #74. "Jolly good. That's their choice. Other people choose to buy walk-up tickets on the day of travel. An equally valid choice."

If you want to imply that doing so is somehow wrong or abnormal, then you are on a slippery slope.

Not wanting to drag this out as were straying off Thread here but you also said -

It's a shame that the railway's ability to sell a passenger a ticket has become so notoriously poor (long queues at ticket offices, broken TVMs, etc) that some people need the 'reassurance' of buying walk-up tickets long-before actually travelling.

which my post directly refers to.

 

[Gareth Marston]

"Jolly good. That's their choice. Other people choose to buy walk-up tickets on the day of travel. An equally valid choice."

Yes both are equally valid but the key phrase is 'buy" the OP's problems arose from his decision not to buy a ticket between Leeds and Bradford when he purchased his AP ticket from BHM to Leeds and then again at Birmingham New St before he set off and again at Leeds when he was interchanging.

 

[transmanche]

Not wanting to drag this out as were straying off Thread here but you also said -
[snip]
which my post directly refers to.

Yes. I was simply using an example to explain to you why some passengers might feel the need of having (to use your words) "the reassurance of already having [a] ticket".

You implied that it was unreasonable for a passenger to buy a walk-up ticket on the day of travel by saying passengers "who buy their walk on fares in advance" [as opposed to on the day of travel] are "taking the correct approach".

Such implications need to be challenged because there is nothing wrong with buying a walk-up ticket on the day of travel.

 

[transmanche]

Yes both are equally valid

So why were you chastising the OP in post #62 for not purchasing his advance and walk-up tickets at the same time?

but the key phrase is 'buy" the OP's problems arose from his decision not to buy a ticket between Leeds and Bradford when he purchased his AP ticket from BHM to Leeds and then again at Birmingham New St before he set off and again at Leeds when he was interchanging.

• Why should he be expected to purchase a walk-up ticket five weeks in advance? It's not an unreasonable expectation to be able to buy a walk-up ticket on the day of travel
• Why should he be expected to miss his train at Birmingham due to a long queue when he already has a ticket for the majority of the journey when he knows that there will be someone who can sell railway tickets on-board? It's not an unreasonable expectation to think you would be able to buy that 'add-on' ticket en route.
• The Train Manager on the XC service told the OP that (for whatever reason) he could not be sold the ticket he wanted on the XC train, but he would be OK to buy his ticket on the train from Leeds to Bradford. It's not an unreasonable expectation to follow the advice given by an authorised person and expect that to be OK.

It is an unreasonable expectation to assume that everyone has to buy their railway tickets at the time and in the way that you mandate.

 

[AlterEgo]

So why were you chastising the OP in post #62 for not purchasing his advance and walk-up tickets at the same time?

• Why should he be expected to purchase a walk-up ticket five weeks in advance? It's not an unreasonable expectation to be able to buy a walk-up ticket on the day of travel
• Why should he be expected to miss his train at Birmingham due to a long queue when he already has a ticket for the majority of the journey when he knows that there will be someone who can sell railway tickets on-board? It's not an unreasonable expectation to think you would be able to buy that 'add-on' ticket en route.
• The Train Manager on the XC service told the OP that (for whatever reason) he could not be sold the ticket he wanted on the XC train, but he would be OK to buy his ticket on the train from Leeds to Bradford. It's not an unreasonable expectation to follow the advice given by an authorised person and expect that to be OK.

It is an unreasonable expectation to assume that everyone has to buy their railway tickets at the time and in the way that you mandate.

There is nothing wrong with buying tickets on the day and I don't think anyone is explicitly suggesting there is.

However, the OP wouldn't be in the position he was in had he purchased a ticket before he boarded. This could be done:

1) At the time of buying his advance.
2) Online or via mobile, for collection on the day.
3) At Birmingham New Street on the day.
4) At Leeds station before boarding a Penalty Fares train.

It is right for people to criticise the XC TM, he gave the wrong advice having been unable to sell a ticket. It's likely the TM didn't realise he was advising the OP to board a Penalty fare train without a ticket. Equally, it is wrong for people to criticise the OP for following the advice once it had been given.

But it's also okay to point out that the easiest way to avoid these sorts of situations is to just buy your ticket as soon as you can.

It's only four pounds and twenty pence in this situation, hardly a huge outlay. I don't understand the huge controversy about this.

 

[najaB]

Why should he be expected to miss his train at Birmingham due to a long queue when he already has a ticket for the majority of the journey when he knows that there will be someone who can sell railway tickets on-board?

Because he was boarding at a staffed station, and was changing trains at a staffed station. While passengers are entitled to purchase on board, the railway is under no obligation to make on-board sales.

Or, alternatively, why should the railway be expected to bend its rules to accommodate the passenger's decision to only purchase some of the tickets that he required?

The Train Manager on the XC service told the OP that (for whatever reason) he could not be sold the ticket he wanted on the XC train, but he would be OK to buy his ticket on the train from Leeds to Bradford. It's not an unreasonable expectation to follow the advice given by an authorised person and expect that to be OK.

As noted above, the XC train manager should have said 'Buy at Leeds'.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The world were you could jump aboard a train (especially involving travel between and in and around large conurbations) and expect to purchase on board/at destination has simply long gone. This point arises continually on this part of the forum some posters point out how the system actually works others choose to state how they believe it should work. What really matters to those that OP is how it works in this case the OP was lucky that the staff at Bradford showed a fair amount of discretion and he is not in a position of facing a Penalty Fare etc.

 

[transmanche]

However, the OP wouldn't be in the position he was in had he purchased a ticket before he boarded.

No-one is disputing that.

This could be done:

1) At the time of buying his advance.
2) Online or via mobile, for collection on the day.
3) At Birmingham New Street on the day.
4) At Leeds station before boarding a Penalty Fares train.

Yes. We know that. But that doesn't negate what I said in post #90.

None of the individual decisions the OP made were unreasonable. It's just unfortunate that collectively they landed him in a PF area without a valid ticket.

It is right for people to criticise the XC TM[...]Equally, it is wrong for people to criticise the OP for following the advice once it had been given.

Agreed.

But it's also okay to point out that the easiest way to avoid these sorts of situations is to just buy your ticket as soon as you can.

It's fine to advise the OP as a tip for the future. But it's not fine to criticise the OP (as some people have done) just because he chose (to attempt) to buy a walk-up ticket on the day of travel.

 

[najaB]

But it's not fine to criticise the OP (as some people have done) just because he chose (to attempt) to buy a walk-up ticket on the day of travel.

I haven't seen anybody doing that. What many have pointed out is that attempting to purchase a walk-up ticket after you've travelled (having had an opportunity to purchase before travel) is leaving yourself liable to end up in hot water.