Blackpool Heritage Tram Operations Suspended

[Jonathan Lynch]

Few observations to add to the mix.

Have the depot tours been pulled as well there is no way to book on the website now. This was maybe finished for the year.

I thought it very strange there was no Christmas by the sea mini service this year. Previously there has a been a tram decked out for this role.

Has Paul Galley made any comment on this ? He was heavily involved in all the heritage announcements in the past.

As far as I can see there is no report on this in the local press online Lancs live or the gazette online.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the Tower is one of those Attractions, and the Heritage Trams is the other, then I'd really like to know what the 3rd Attraction is

I think it was a joke about the "service" at Blackpool North from the staff having improved of late (to be fair it was fine when I used it a few weeks back, they even let people through the gateline without checking tickets to clear a crowd) no longer being a Pythonesque "attraction" in itself, presumably along the lines of the entertainingly bad Fawlty Towers style service you get in some of the cheaper hotels and guest houses.

As far as I can see there is no report on this in the local press online Lancs live or the gazette online.

The Blackpool Facebook groups appear to be covering it.

 

[MikeWM]

Having seen 717 pass by at Cleveleys just a couple of weeks ago, and being most pleased to see the heritage trams still out and about, this is very sad news Hopefully something gets resolved, but this does feel like one of those things that ends up being permanent.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Blackpool's heritage trams suspended

"The Heritage Trams are a cherished part of Blackpool’s history, and we fully recognise their importance"

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Why you're more likley to ride an old Blackpool tram in San Francisco than Blackpool​

"The Heritage Trams are a cherished part of Blackpool’s history, and we fully recognise their importance"​

The company which runs Heritage Tram Tours, in Blackpool has announced that its fleets will be off the tracks for the forseeable future, citing safety complications as one of the main issues. There are also questions over how heritage trams can run alongside modern ones.

It's atleast now made it onto the Manchester Evening News website (link at the top of the page takes you straight to the article on the website)... Apologies, I know it's such an advert ridden site but thought it worth sharing.

 

[Egg Centric]

I think it was a joke about the "service" at Blackpool North from the staff having improved of late (to be fair it was fine when I used it a few weeks back, they even let people through the gateline without checking tickets to clear a crowd) no longer being a Pythonesque "attraction" in itself, presumably along the lines of the entertainingly bad Fawlty Towers style service you get in some of the cheaper hotels and guest houses.

Yup. I'd been quite looking forward to experiencing it some time. However I take the point about the illuminations being a third attraction as well, although having experienced them my personal view is they're a bit of a let down.

Feels like the "true story" about the trams will be coming out in the next couple of days. Blackpool Transport would be well advised to get ahead of it now otherwise rumours are going to be floating around.

Oddly, while doing research into this I have also discovered that yesterday was the 35th anniversary of the highest ever viewship of Coronation Street (27 million!) where Alan Bradley (me neither) was run over by a Blackpool Tram. I'm too young but I wonder if this may mean something to our more senior members?

 

[Leyland Bus]

Oddly, while doing research into this I have also discovered that yesterday was the 35th anniversary of the highest ever viewship of Coronation Street (27 million!) where Alan Bradley (me neither) was run over by a Blackpool Tram. I'm too young but I wonder if this may mean something to our more senior members?

It's quite possible that the Brady family have finally put a claim in...

Do keep up!

 

[nanstallon]

This happens so often in Britain, that things are shut down without any notice except some weasel excuse either about economic factors or elfansafety. All part of the 'stuff the customer' mentality.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This happens so often in Britain, that things are shut down without any notice except some weasel excuse either about economic factors or elfansafety. All part of the 'stuff the customer' mentality.

There is absolutely a culture of dishonesty and lack of transparency among wide swathes of British business and Government about this sort of thing.

 

[A S Leib]

The likes of Prestatyn, Rhyl and Llandudno still seem able to attract decent enough numbers (not as many as decades ago, of course) whilst having significantly less in the way of attractions than Blackpool.

It depends on personal preference, but as Llandudno has trams and a pier of its own, the Great Orme to provide a vantage point rather than a tower, as well as cable cars, the mine and the Home Front Museum, I'd disagree with part of that.

As with most of this thread, anything I say is speculation, but how much have heritage tram fares risen by in recent years?

 

[Towers]

As with most of this thread, anything I say is speculation, but how much have heritage tram fares risen by in recent years?

Very little, I think. A run to Fleetwood and back was somewhere in the region of about a tenner last year, maybe just above, and that was a good solid hour or two I seem to remember. There is scope for an increase, but probably with keen discounts for group tickets or perhaps ‘kids go free’ in order to keep families coming.

 

[Skymonster]

From an ORR report dated March 31, 2023.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/media/24168/download

The intent of this recommendation is to prevent serious accidents due to excessive speed at higher risk locations on tramways. These locations are likely to include all locations where a substantial speed reduction is required for trams approaching at relatively high speed.

UK tram operators, owners and infrastructure managers should work together to review, develop, and provide a programme for installing suitable measures to automatically reduce tram speeds if they approach higher risk locations at speeds which could result in derailment or overturning.

As previously reported, our overall objectives with the Sandilands recommendations were to ensure that the sector make reasonably practicable safety improvements, with a focus on improving risk control and preventing, rather than simply mitigating, further accidents.

All networks have now either fitted equipment to control the speed of a tram and detect driver vigilance, or have provided a timebound plan to so.

BTS have provided a timebound plan for the fitment of a system to identify overspeed and obstacle detection. The timescale is currently 15 months, with the possibility this will be reduced to 8 months.

Hmmm… Fifteen months from the end of March last year ran its course by mid-summer this year. I wonder if BTS has been ignoring or overlooking this requirement in respect of the heritage fleet, and the omission has now been picked up [by ORR]???

 

[tram21]

From an ORR report dated March 31, 2023.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/media/24168/download

Hmmm… Fifteen months from the end of March last year ran its course by mid-summer this year. I wonder if BTS has been ignoring or overlooking this requirement in respect of the heritage fleet, and the omission has now been picked up [by ORR]???

I think this is the most likely thing. Something has definitely been mandated by someone, I'd say the ORR probably noticed the issues with the Heritage trams not having their required safety features. We'll probably hear more from them at some point.

Now it's probably up to BTS to see what they can do with this.

---

The local MP for Blackpool, Chris Webb has got involved. His post on Facebook is here, hopefully this will provide more answers.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/18Qd5ZBwvk/

️

Many constituents and visitors to Blackpool have reached out in these past 24 hours to express their concerns about the sudden suspension of our Heritage Trams. I was not informed that this action was about to take place and I am concerned that a vital aspect of our town's heritage is currently out of service.

In the coming days, I will be engaging with representatives from Blackpool Transport and the Council Leader to explore collaborative solutions for restoring our cherished trams and making them accessible to the public once again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From an ORR report dated March 31, 2023.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/media/24168/download

Hmmm… Fifteen months from the end of March last year ran its course by mid-summer this year. I wonder if BTS has been ignoring or overlooking this requirement in respect of the heritage fleet, and the omission has now been picked up [by ORR]???

Sounds more than a little bit like a certain charter operator and central door locking (though probably more an oversight than a refusal to fit) - interesting! If that's the case then the explanation BTS gave is honest but isn't really particularly well worded so feels obfuscatory even if it isn't!

Wonder if in that case they might be able to get a derogation for the heritage fleet if they agree to always double-man them or similar?

Having said that, these things are never impossible - isn't there work ongoing to find out how to fit ETCS to a steam loco at the moment?

 

[Skymonster]

Sounds more than a little bit like a certain charter operator and central door locking (though probably more an oversight than a refusal to fit) - interesting! If that's the case then the explanation BTS gave is honest but isn't really particularly well worded so feels obfuscatory even if it isn't!

Honest maybe, but lacking in foresight in respect of not communicating the issue earlier which would have enabled a more organised drawdown - and maybe engendered more sympathy.

Wonder if in that case they might be able to get a derogation for the heritage fleet if they agree to always double-man them or similar?

Maybe there has been a derogation that has run out… Or ORR has been along and asked how the installation is going on the heritage fleet… Or a minor incident has occurred, a report has been raised, and questions have been asked… Or even a whistle-blower has said things still haven’t been sorted for the heritage fleet… I’m not sure we will ever know for certain.

Having said that, these things are never impossible - isn't there work ongoing to find out how to fit ETCS to a steam loco at the moment?

Not impossible, but maybe too expensive when it has to be fitted to a number of different trams, all funded from the same source, and from revenue that’s much less than is generated by a few hundred people paying hundreds of pounds for a day out behind a main line steam locomotive.

There’s widespread belief that BTS isn’t fully committed to heritage operations, so perhaps now it has reached a ‘convenient’ point at which to throw in the towel and put heritage on the “too difficult” pile. If the instigation is solely internal though, its been very poorly handled and communicated - I still sense some external impetus.

Realistically it begins to make a bit more sense now. Mandated safety systems not fitted (overdue), fleet “condemned” (as suggested by someone on Facebook), future operations cancelled. Still leaves an outstanding question though: why is the BLS tour, in splendid isolation, going ahead?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Realistically it begins to make a bit more sense now. Mandated safety systems not fitted (overdue), fleet “condemned” (as suggested by someone on Facebook), future operations cancelled. Still leaves an outstanding question though: why is the BLS tour, in splendid isolation, going ahead?

Could the BLS tour be seen to be directly not taking account of given instructions and those charged with the operation of it be subject to any known stricture?

 

[bluegoblin7]

Given that the Fylde Tramway Society has announced today that its Christmas tour will utilise a vintage bus and a Flexity, I think it would be a safe bet to assume that the BLS tour would also use a Flexity.

I have no inside information on the situation but some of the speculation and emotion here is rather sensationalist, overly emotive and frankly a little bit ridiculous for something that has always felt like it was on borrowed time, and operating far in excess of what was envisaged in 2011.

 

[DanNCL]

Could the BLS tour be seen to be directly not taking account of given instructions and those charged with the operation of it be subject to any known stricture?

Given that the Fylde Tramway Society has announced today that its Christmas tour will utilise a vintage bus and a Flexity, I think it would be a safe bet to assume that the BLS tour would also use a Flexity.

A Flexity onto Blundell Street would be a first, probably quite appealing to the sort of clientele that tour will likely have too.

Is it possible that one single tram (probably a B fleet balloon) could be fitted with the new safety equipment by that point?

 

[MDB1images]

736(Frigate)still on Starr Gate depot as of tonight.

The Illumination cars and Open tops have seemed attractive to non enthusiasts and I'd imagine add value to a town based on tourism.

Think the whole Heritage operation needs reviewing, hopefully a sensible review with a better way of promoting it, and continued operations can be found.

 

[daodao]

From an ORR report dated March 31, 2023.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/media/24168/download

I suspect that Blackpool Transport (BT) were fully aware of the need to implement some safety measures as advised/mandated by the ORR in response to the tragic Sandilands incident, but had planned to run the current heritage operation until the last day of the Illuminations on 5th January 2025 and then suspend it. A notice may already have been drafted along the lines of what has been published, to be issued in January 2025 during the "close" season. The general public are probably relatively unaware of this extremely serious "accident", as it coincided with the election of Donald Trump as the 45th US president, which understandably swamped the news media at the time.

The abruptness of the suspension suggests that BT were ordered/forced unexpectedly to cease operating the heritage trams immediately, and not wait until 6th January 2025, so rushed out a pre-drafted notice without realising fully that it did not provide an adequate explanation for the instant cessation of planned services scheduled to run over the next few weeks.

It may be quite difficult to implement some of the new safety features required, on old tramcars without advanced electronics. The 1930s cars, especially the single deck Brush cars, were capable of quite a turn of pace over the reserved track sections from Bispham to Anchorsholme Lane and Thornton Gate to Fisherman's Walk. Operating the historic cars at slow speeds (like heritage railways which are limited to 25 mph) would interfere with the regular scheduled service.

In the fullness of time, more information is likely to become available, together with realistic proposals for the future of the heritage trams, taking into account that the primary role of the Blackpool tramway is to provide an all day/all year (Xmas day excepted) high capacity public transport service.

 

[Skymonster]

some of the speculation and emotion here is rather sensationalist, overly emotive and frankly a little bit ridiculous for something that has always felt like it was on borrowed time

Not really. These mandates have been incoming for quite a while (18 months at least), as evidenced by the quotes from the report I highlighted above. Not once in that time has BTS said “it could be difficult”, “we will need more time” or “we are going to need to rethink” in respect of heritage. The sudden very short-notice shutdown has thus come as something of a surprise to almost everyone and has done nothing to allay concerns harboured by many that BTS cares little about heritage.

I believe BTS needs to recognise and accept that it is custodian of a historically significant transportation system asset, and should treat the preservation of heritage operations accordingly. Lacking the will to do that, it should long ago have started to look for, then designate and support an orderly transfer of it to an organisation that does.

 

[DanNCL]

The general public are probably relatively unaware of this extremely serious "accident", as it coincided with the election of Donald Trump as the 45th US president, which understandably swamped the news media at the time.

Maybe not so much now but certainly at the time the Sandilands crash was widespread knowledge across the UK and shocked a lot of people. I was in my last year of school at the time and my school in Newcastle observed a minute silence in memory of those who lost their lives in London, it didn’t go unnoticed by the general public at the time.

In the fullness of time, more information is likely to become available, together with realistic proposals for the future of the heritage trams, taking into account that the primary role of the Blackpool tramway is to provide an all day/all year (Xmas day excepted) high capacity public transport service.

I believe BTS needs to recognise and accept that it is custodian of a historically significant transportation system asset, and should treat the preservation of heritage operations accordingly. Lacking the will to do that, it should long ago have started to look for, then designate and support an orderly transfer of it to an organisation that does.

Muni do an excellent job of it in San Francisco (including with Boat cars!), BTS would do well to take ideas from them.

 

[daodao]

Muni do an excellent job of it in San Francisco (including with Boat cars!), BTS would do well to take ideas from them.

San Francisco streetcar routes E and F on which the Muni heritage cars operate are largely separate from their main light rail routes. Along Market Street, the Muni light rail service runs underground, with the heritage streetcar service running separately on the surface, although light rail route N and heritage streetcar route E do run on the same alignment from the Caltrain station to the waterfront near Embarcadero. However, these lines are urban, unlike much of the Blackpool-Fleetwood interurban, although the speed limit on the Bispham-Fleetwood section seems to have been reduced recently with slightly longer booked times for the scheduled service in the current timetable.

 

[Egg Centric]

taking into account that the primary role of the Blackpool tramway is to provide an all day/all year (Xmas day excepted) high capacity public transport service.

I'm not saying that this isn't true because I'm genuinely not sure - but it strikes me as potentially a naive view about its purpose. If we assume that tramway wouldn't currently exist if it hadn't been kept open for its heritage value - and I think that's right - it's not that much of a stretch to think that a future less flush Blackpool council (and the way Blackpool and the country is going it's reasonable to assume that said council will be less flush) would be perfectly happy to close the tramway entirely and convert to bus operation. I don't see how Blackpool justifies a pure public transport tramway from a "bean counter" perspective.

Whereas a heritage operation even if not ridden by visitors adds to its charm and attraction such as it is. So a subsidy, even a considerable one, becomes easier to justify.

 

[DanNCL]

San Francisco streetcar routes E and F on which the Muni heritage cars operate are largely separate from their main light rail routes. Along Market Street, the Muni light rail service runs underground, with the heritage streetcar service running separately on the surface, although light rail route N and heritage streetcar route E do run on the same alignment from the Caltrain station to the waterfront near Embarcadero. However, these lines are urban, unlike much of the Blackpool-Fleetwood interurban, although the speed limit on the Bispham-Fleetwood section seems to have been reduced recently with slightly longer booked times for the scheduled service in the current timetable.

I’m familiar with the setup as I was in San Francisco a few weeks ago. The section shared between the E and the N on the Embarcadero is comparable to the Promenade in Blackpool. The heritage trams also run in passenger service over light rail route J between the Castro and Balboa Park to access the depot and that has a section of fast segregated interurban running.

Even though the F is on its own dedicated tracks, the heritage trams do run in service in conditions similar to Blackpool on a daily basis, it would be a good system not necessarily to copy but definitely for Blackpool to take ideas and solutions from to get their own operation back up and running.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Given that the Fylde Tramway Society has announced today that its Christmas tour will utilise a vintage bus and a Flexity, I think it would be a safe bet to assume that the BLS tour would also use a Flexity.

This has now been confirmed by a BLS rep elsewhere.

To misquote Hamilton, one less conspiracy theory to worry about.

 

[Harpo]

This has now been confirmed by a BLS rep elsewhere.

Splendid. Thanks @bluegoblin7 for doubling the fact count in this thread to two!

 

[davehsug]

Not really. These mandates have been incoming for quite a while (18 months at least), as evidenced by the quotes from the report I highlighted above. Not once in that time has BTS said “it could be difficult”, “we will need more time” or “we are going to need to rethink” in respect of heritage. The sudden very short-notice shutdown has thus come as something of a surprise to almost everyone and has done nothing to allay concerns harboured by many that BTS cares little about heritage.

I believe BTS needs to recognise and accept that it is custodian of a historically significant transportation system asset, and should treat the preservation of heritage operations accordingly. Lacking the will to do that, it should long ago have started to look for, then designate and support an orderly transfer of it to an organisation that does.

I don't think it's exagerating to say that the Blackpool system is of world significance, as the first electric street tramway, and oldest still operating. Would any other country treat a world first so badly? We continually see things like this as a problem, rather then a huge opportunity.

 

[Egg Centric]

This has now been confirmed by a BLS rep elsewhere.

To misquote Hamilton, one less conspiracy theory to worry about.

Do you happen to know if it was sold out before this news broke? My reaction on finding out that it was running - like many others I suspect - was to go and see if I could book it but was too late. I wonder if some spaces may now be given up.

 

[eldomtom2]

Hmmm… Fifteen months from the end of March last year ran its course by mid-summer this year. I wonder if BTS has been ignoring or overlooking this requirement in respect of the heritage fleet, and the omission has now been picked up [by ORR]???

Does anyone know any of the technical details of the Blackpool overspeed prevention system? The ORR report just says "BTS have provided a timebound plan for the fitment of a system to identify overspeed and obstacle detection" without stating anything about the technical details. Certainly in principle I can't see anything stopping the heritage fleet from being fitted with overspeed protection, but I imagine cost may be an issue.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't think it's exagerating to say that the Blackpool system is of world significance, as the first electric street tramway, and oldest still operating. Would any other country treat a world first so badly? We continually see things like this as a problem, rather then a huge opportunity.

World significance? That's taking enthusiasm a tad too far...