Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[rebmcr]

You have probably prevented Dave from being nominated now.

Has anyone ever tried to "suggest nominating" vast swathes of senior civil servants, as a proof-of-concept that is a silly rule?

 

[snowball]

In summary what are the pro's & cons of a T&W order vs lots of separate planning permissions?

I think the gist of it is that a T&W order takes a long time because

(i) you've got to design everything in sufficient detail before you can submit any part of it for approval,

(ii) there may then be a public inquiry,

(iii) you can't foretell how long the minister will then take to decide;

but then once you've got it you've got it all (unless someone like Whitby sumits a legal challenge).

 

[LDECRexile]

Yes, I'm expecting them to be able to do the same here.

Yes there are and not just footbridges - Bolton platform five layout is there and a new substation at Lostock:

98071/16 LISTED BUILDING CONSENT TO INSTALL ELECTRIC EQUIPMENT TO UNDERSIDE OF BRIDGE, IN CONNECTION WITH ELECTRIFICATION OF RAILWAY | BENTLEY'S BRIDGE TO THE EAST OF CARLTON STREET, FARNWORTH, BL4 7PJ.

97365/16 | APPLICATION FOR PRIOR APPROVAL UNDER PART 18 OF THE GDPO: TO ERECT A FOOTBRIDGE AT PLATFORM FIVE. | BOLTON RAILSTATION, TRINITY STREET, BOLTON

96761/16 | APPLICATION FOR PRIOR APPROVAL UNDER PART 18 OF THE GDPO: TO EXTEND THE CANOPY TO PLATFORM 5. | BOLTON RAILSTATION, TRINITY STREET, BOLTON

97810/16 | ERECTION OF COMPOUND CONTAINING ELECTRICITY SUBSTATION AND ASSOCIATED STRUCTURES TOGETHER WITH 3 METRE HIGH PALISADE FENCING | LAND TO EAST LOSTOCK PARKWAY RAILWAY STATION, RUMWORTH ROAD, LOSTOCK, BOLTON

96785/16 | APPLICATION FOR PRIOR APPROVAL UNDER PART 18 OF THE GDPO: TO ERECT A STEPPED FOOTBRIDGE. | ANDERTON HALL LEVEL CROSSING, FACTORY BROW, BLACKROD, BOLTON

93477/15 | APPLICATION FOR PRIOR APPROVAL UNDER PART 11 OF THE GDPO: CONSTRUCTION OF STEPPED FOOTBRIDGE AT KEARSLEY LEVEL CROSSING | NORTHWEST OF EXISTING LEVEL CROSSING, KEARSLEY, BOLTON

93759/15 | CONSTRUCTION OF SOIL NAILED RETAINING WALL AT NORTH WESTERN APPROACH TO CLAMMERCLOUGH TUNNEL TOGETHER WITH ERECTION OF WOODEN PALISADE FENCE. | CLAMMERCLOUGH TUNNEL, KEARSLEY, BOLTON

93760/15 | LISTED BUILDING CONSENT FOR CONSTRUCTION OF SOIL NAILED RETAINING WALL AT NORTH WESTERN APPROACH TO CLAMMERCLOUGH TUNNEL TOGETHER WITH ERECTION OF PALISADE FENCE. | CLAMMERCLOUGH TUNNEL, KEARSLEY, BOLTON

93644/15 | APPLICATION FOR PRIOR APPROVAL UNDER PART 11 OF THE GDPO: REMOVAL OF EXISTING BRIDGE AND ERECTION OF NEW BRIDGE STRUCTURE | CEMETERY ROAD BRIDGE, FARNWORTH, BOLTON, BL4 7QZ

93706/15 | APPLICATION FOR PRIOR APPROVAL UNDER PART 11 OF THE GDPO: REMOVAL OF EXISTING BRIDGE AND ERECTION OF NEW BRIDGE STRUCTURE | ORLANDO STREET BRIDGE, BOLTON BL2

93326/14 | AMENDMENT TO PREVIOUS APPROVED APPLICATION 87438/12 ERECTION OF FOOTBRIDGE FROM APPROVED INTERCHANGE TO THE EXISTING RAIL STATION | LAND BOUNDED BY BOLLINGS YARD/JOHNSON STREET/NEWPORT STREET/GREAT MOOR STREET (INCLUDING THE RAILWAY TRIANGLE), BOLTON.

93252/14 | ENLARGEMENT OF EXISTING NORTHERN TUNNEL, INCLUDING CONSTRUCTION OF NEW CONCRETE TUNNEL PORTALS, INFILLING OF EXISTING VENTILATION SHAFT, CONCRETE LINING OF SOUTHERN TUNNEL, INSTALLATION OF SHEET PILED FOUNDATIONS AND ASSOCIATED WORKS, REQUIRED IN CONNECTION WITH ELECTRIFICATION OF RAILWAY | CLAMMERCLOUGH TUNNEL, TO THE NORTH OF CHURCH ROAD, KEARSLEY, BOLTON

93253/14 | LISTED BUILDING CONSENT FOR THE ENLARGEMENT OF EXISTING NORTHERN TUNNEL, INCLUDING CONSTRUCTION OF NEW CONCRETE TUNNEL PORTALS, INFILLING OF EXISTING VENTILATION SHAFT, CONCRETE LINING OF SOUTHERN TUNNEL, INSTALLATION OF SHEET PILED FOUNDATIONS AND ASSOCIATED WORKS, REQUIRED IN CONNECTION WITH ELECTRIFICATION OF RAILWAY | CLAMMERCLOUGH TUNNEL, TO THE NORTH OF CHURCH ROAD, KEARSLEY, BOLTON

Not part of Bolton-Preston, but the other side of the Lostock bridge on the Wigan line:

95809/16 | APPLICATION FOR PRIOR APPROVAL UNDER PART 18 OF THE GDPO: REMOVAL OF EXISTING BRIDGE AND ERECTION OF NEW BRIDGE STRUCTURE. | RUMWORTH ROAD BRIDGE, RUMWORTH ROAD, LOSTOCK, BOLTON

These are all just under the Bolton Borough - there should be more under Salford and Lancashire.

Thank you for going to so much trouble, these are interesting.

I've gone on line and tried to find one for Red Moss foot crossing half a mile north of Horwich Parkway (please see Bridgeoscope for details) and failed miserably.

I've tried Google as well as the Bolton Planning site and found nowt. I've looked under Red Moss and found some things but not the crossing, I've looked under Horwich, under stepped footbridge and so on.

Is it me or is it it?

 

[edwin_m]

In summary what are the pro's & cons of a T&W order vs lots of separate planning permissions?

I used to know about this but it was a long time ago and I no longer recall the details. However I think anything to do with operating a railway outside the existing boundary needs a TWA order, because it requires certain legal powers that can't be granted by planning permission (something to do with immunity against prosecution for nuisance, but don't ask me about the details!). This is the sort of activity for which the railway previously had to get a Bill through Parliament, but now only does for a reallly huge scheme like HS2.

The TWA order can also confer "deemed planning permission" and compulsory purchase so there is no need to put in a separate application, although in practice it would be unlikely to pass if the local authority had major concerns. However because of the length, cost and uncertainty of the TWA process NR will never embark on one if the works can be achieved by a combination of permitted development and getting local authority permissions for works that don't require the extra powers. Where a scheme is "borderline" an option that doesn't require a TWA order is much more likely to be chosen.

So on this route Ordsall Chord needed a TWA order as it goes outside the previous railway boundary, as will the works at Oxford Road and Piccadilly, but I believe everything else out to Blackpool is within permitted development or by applying to local authorities.

 

[wrinkley]

Yes, I'm expecting them to be able to do the same here.



Yes there are and not just footbridges - Bolton platform five layout is there and a new substation at Lostock:

98071/16 LISTED BUILDING CONSENT TO INSTALL ELECTRIC EQUIPMENT TO UNDERSIDE OF BRIDGE, IN CONNECTION WITH ELECTRIFICATION OF RAILWAY | BENTLEY'S BRIDGE TO THE EAST OF CARLTON STREET, FARNWORTH, BL4 7PJ.

97365/16 | APPLICATION FOR PRIOR APPROVAL UNDER PART 18 OF THE GDPO: TO ERECT A FOOTBRIDGE AT PLATFORM FIVE. | BOLTON RAILSTATION, TRINITY STREET, BOLTON

96761/16 | APPLICATION FOR PRIOR APPROVAL UNDER PART 18 OF THE GDPO: TO EXTEND THE CANOPY TO PLATFORM 5. | BOLTON RAILSTATION, TRINITY STREET, BOLTON

97810/16 | ERECTION OF COMPOUND CONTAINING ELECTRICITY SUBSTATION AND ASSOCIATED STRUCTURES TOGETHER WITH 3 METRE HIGH PALISADE FENCING | LAND TO EAST LOSTOCK PARKWAY RAILWAY STATION, RUMWORTH ROAD, LOSTOCK, BOLTON

96785/16 | APPLICATION FOR PRIOR APPROVAL UNDER PART 18 OF THE GDPO: TO ERECT A STEPPED FOOTBRIDGE. | ANDERTON HALL LEVEL CROSSING, FACTORY BROW, BLACKROD, BOLTON

93477/15 | APPLICATION FOR PRIOR APPROVAL UNDER PART 11 OF THE GDPO: CONSTRUCTION OF STEPPED FOOTBRIDGE AT KEARSLEY LEVEL CROSSING | NORTHWEST OF EXISTING LEVEL CROSSING, KEARSLEY, BOLTON

93759/15 | CONSTRUCTION OF SOIL NAILED RETAINING WALL AT NORTH WESTERN APPROACH TO CLAMMERCLOUGH TUNNEL TOGETHER WITH ERECTION OF WOODEN PALISADE FENCE. | CLAMMERCLOUGH TUNNEL, KEARSLEY, BOLTON

93760/15 | LISTED BUILDING CONSENT FOR CONSTRUCTION OF SOIL NAILED RETAINING WALL AT NORTH WESTERN APPROACH TO CLAMMERCLOUGH TUNNEL TOGETHER WITH ERECTION OF PALISADE FENCE. | CLAMMERCLOUGH TUNNEL, KEARSLEY, BOLTON

93644/15 | APPLICATION FOR PRIOR APPROVAL UNDER PART 11 OF THE GDPO: REMOVAL OF EXISTING BRIDGE AND ERECTION OF NEW BRIDGE STRUCTURE | CEMETERY ROAD BRIDGE, FARNWORTH, BOLTON, BL4 7QZ

93706/15 | APPLICATION FOR PRIOR APPROVAL UNDER PART 11 OF THE GDPO: REMOVAL OF EXISTING BRIDGE AND ERECTION OF NEW BRIDGE STRUCTURE | ORLANDO STREET BRIDGE, BOLTON BL2

93326/14 | AMENDMENT TO PREVIOUS APPROVED APPLICATION 87438/12 ERECTION OF FOOTBRIDGE FROM APPROVED INTERCHANGE TO THE EXISTING RAIL STATION | LAND BOUNDED BY BOLLINGS YARD/JOHNSON STREET/NEWPORT STREET/GREAT MOOR STREET (INCLUDING THE RAILWAY TRIANGLE), BOLTON.

93252/14 | ENLARGEMENT OF EXISTING NORTHERN TUNNEL, INCLUDING CONSTRUCTION OF NEW CONCRETE TUNNEL PORTALS, INFILLING OF EXISTING VENTILATION SHAFT, CONCRETE LINING OF SOUTHERN TUNNEL, INSTALLATION OF SHEET PILED FOUNDATIONS AND ASSOCIATED WORKS, REQUIRED IN CONNECTION WITH ELECTRIFICATION OF RAILWAY | CLAMMERCLOUGH TUNNEL, TO THE NORTH OF CHURCH ROAD, KEARSLEY, BOLTON

93253/14 | LISTED BUILDING CONSENT FOR THE ENLARGEMENT OF EXISTING NORTHERN TUNNEL, INCLUDING CONSTRUCTION OF NEW CONCRETE TUNNEL PORTALS, INFILLING OF EXISTING VENTILATION SHAFT, CONCRETE LINING OF SOUTHERN TUNNEL, INSTALLATION OF SHEET PILED FOUNDATIONS AND ASSOCIATED WORKS, REQUIRED IN CONNECTION WITH ELECTRIFICATION OF RAILWAY | CLAMMERCLOUGH TUNNEL, TO THE NORTH OF CHURCH ROAD, KEARSLEY, BOLTON

Not part of Bolton-Preston, but the other side of the Lostock bridge on the Wigan line:

95809/16 | APPLICATION FOR PRIOR APPROVAL UNDER PART 18 OF THE GDPO: REMOVAL OF EXISTING BRIDGE AND ERECTION OF NEW BRIDGE STRUCTURE. | RUMWORTH ROAD BRIDGE, RUMWORTH ROAD, LOSTOCK, BOLTON

These are all just under the Bolton Borough - there should be more under Salford and Lancashire.

The bridge at Lostock is one of a pair, the second one spans the Manchester - Preston line. For the last few years, a weight limit controlled by bollards has covered both bridges. Are both bridges weak or just one, they are very similar in construction and the second bridge has a date of 1916 on it. Are we eventually going to have a new bridge which is still restricted?

 

[snowball]

However I think anything to do with operating a railway outside the existing boundary needs a TWA order, because it requires certain legal powers that can't be granted by planning permission (something to do with immunity against prosecution for nuisance, but don't ask me about the details!). This is the sort of activity for which the railway previously had to get a Bill through Parliament, but now only does for a reallly huge scheme like HS2.

I think that's right but I think it must also be the case that a TWA order can optionally be used when there is no plan to operate a railway outside the existing boundary. Otherwise the suggestion that the GWR electrification could have used a TWA order makes no sense.

 

[42626]

I've gone on line and tried to find one for Red Moss foot crossing half a mile north of Horwich Parkway (please see Bridgeoscope for details) and failed miserably.

I've tried Google as well as the Bolton Planning site and found nowt. I've looked under Red Moss and found some things but not the crossing, I've looked under Horwich, under stepped footbridge and so on.

Is it me or is it it?

I used the maps on this page to search up and down the railway line and as you say there's nothing showing yet for Red Moss crossing. Either it doesn't need a application or they haven't done it yet.

 

[edwin_m]

I think that's right but I think it must also be the case that a TWA order can optionally be used when there is no plan to operate a railway outside the existing boundary. Otherwise the suggestion that the GWR electrification could have used a TWA order makes no sense.

Yes that is probably right, as you could have a TWA that doesn't ask for the sorts of powers that aren't needed. However the policy seems to be never to use a TWA when any other alternative is available.

 

[LDECRexile]

I used the maps on this page to search up and down the railway line and as you say there's nothing showing yet for Red Moss crossing. Either it doesn't need a application or they haven't done it yet.

Thank you

Wrinkey has been out and about and sent a batch of shots showing steady piling progress around Dean Clough and Ladybridge.

I've added them to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157654034635234

and to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633

Thank you Wrinkley.

 

[HowardGWR]

Wrinkey, Wrinkley, Schminkley.
Great photos, thanks. The green fencing is a bit less 'in your face ' than that galvanised finish, especially in a parkland setting.

 

[CAF397]

Chorley platforms should have reopened in their entirety this morning, according to WON 41. But a Supplement now says it's Thursday the Down platform reopens and the Up platform is back to its full operational length.

Presumably paperwork issues as no work has actually been carried out for at least a month now.

 

[wrinkley]

Wrinkey, Wrinkley, Schminkley.
Great photos, thanks. The green fencing is a bit less 'in your face ' than that galvanised finish, especially in a parkland setting.

Schminkley, I like it. Possibly Rudolf von Schminkley?

 

[LDECRexile]

Alas, I've just had the following from Wrinkley:

I have just had a walk from the Ladybridge to Lostock, sad to say there is no visible progress since last Sunday.

 

[Inox]

Just been on the train between Adlington and Buckshaw and my train stopped at Chorley. Twice.

They let a bunch of people off at the temporary platform and then pulled up to the refurb platform and let a load of people on.

Pretty sure I saw three piles south of Adlington two on the up and one on the down.

 

[Chrisyd]

They have started clearing all the vegetation at the old sidings just outside Bolton (Burnden?).

The abandoned trucks can be seen.

Not sure when they started as Friday was the first day in a long time I have been past in daylight.

Guess this is more about removing old track and tidying up then bringing back into use?

 

[Ianno87]

They have started clearing all the vegetation at the old sidings just outside Bolton (Burnden?).

The abandoned trucks can be seen.

Not sure when they started as Friday was the first day in a long time I have been past in daylight.

Guess this is more about removing old track and tidying up then bringing back into use?

I believe it is to be used as a worksite for Bolton remodelling and/or electrification works.

 

[Darren R]

They have started clearing all the vegetation at the old sidings just outside Bolton (Burnden?).

The abandoned trucks can be seen.

Not sure when they started as Friday was the first day in a long time I have been past in daylight.

Guess this is more about removing old track and tidying up then bringing back into use?

If memory serves me right, those abandoned trucks in Burnden sidings are ballast waggons that have been there since the area was rationalised and resignalled in the mid 1980s. I have a wager going with a friend that they will disappear sometime during the electrification and remodelling works, and at the end of the process they will be replaced by new abandoned waggons!

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Trucks? On this forum?

I'm pretty sure they're Sealions ...

 

[Darren R]

If "trucks" was nomenclature good enough for the Reverend Awdry it's good enough for me!

 

[Foggycorner]

Burnden sidings are being cleared and made ready for all the scrap 142s to be parked in

 

[Karl]

The 'troublesome trucks'?

 

[PDG1949]

Burnden sidings are being cleared and made ready for all the scrap 142s to be parked in

Neophyte bus companies please note - twice the normal capacity and no problems reversing - Ooops; what was that somebody said about steering ??

 

[Joseph_Locke]

... Reverend Awdry ...

An enthusiastic amateur at best, who will never amount to anything with that kind of sloppy thinking.

A truck is only ever found (on the railway) under one end or the other of a steam locomotive.

 

[furnessvale]

If memory serves me right, those abandoned trucks in Burnden sidings are ballast waggons that have been there since the area was rationalised and resignalled in the mid 1980s. I have a wager going with a friend that they will disappear sometime during the electrification and remodelling works, and at the end of the process they will be replaced by new abandoned waggons!

Reminds me of the works trains for Blackpool electrification that were stabled in Ribble sidings (April 1976 rings a bell).

The job was due to start on a Monday but we got word the previous Friday that it was cancelled. There the wagons stayed, including things like drum mixers, for years until they were towed away for scrap.

I have constant fears that history will repeat itself.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A truck is only ever found (on the railway) under one end or the other of a steam locomotive.

Or under all rail vehicles in America-speak, including all those pesky EMD 66s.

 

[Chrisyd]

If "trucks" was nomenclature good enough for the Reverend Awdry it's good enough for me!

My main source of knowledge revealed!

 

[snowball]

Reminds me of the works trains for Blackpool electrification that were stabled in Ribble sidings (April 1976 rings a bell).

The job was due to start on a Monday but we got word the previous Friday that it was cancelled. There the wagons stayed, including things like drum mixers, for years until they were towed away for scrap.

I have constant fears that history will repeat itself.

I was unaware until now of any such last-minute cancellation. I knew Manchester-Preston-Blackpool was once intended to be electrified along with Weaver Junction to Glasgow, but in the end omitted; however WJ-G was finished in 1974, so it appears from what you say that Preston-Blackpool must have been revived and then re-dropped.

 

[Chrism20]

Reminds me of the works trains for Blackpool electrification that were stabled in Ribble sidings (April 1976 rings a bell).

The job was due to start on a Monday but we got word the previous Friday that it was cancelled. There the wagons stayed, including things like drum mixers, for years until they were towed away for scrap.

I have constant fears that history will repeat itself.

I'd like to think this time with the Rail Minister being at "The end of the line" that this would not happen again.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Reminds me of the works trains for Blackpool electrification that were stabled in Ribble sidings (April 1976 rings a bell).

The job was due to start on a Monday but we got word the previous Friday that it was cancelled. There the wagons stayed, including things like drum mixers, for years until they were towed away for scrap.

I have constant fears that history will repeat itself.

I was unaware until now of any such last-minute cancellation. I knew Manchester-Preston-Blackpool was once intended to be electrified along with Weaver Junction to Glasgow, but in the end omitted; however WJ-G was finished in 1974, so it appears from what you say that Preston-Blackpool must have been revived and then re-dropped.

I'd like to think this time with the Rail Minister being at "The end of the line" that this would not happen again.

Well AFAIK all the bridges have been raised and a depot is in place at Salwick and contracts signed so barring the outbreak of WW3 it should go ahead. And if that happens nothing else at all really matters anyway.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well AFAIK all the bridges have been raised and a depot is in place at Salwick and contracts signed so barring the outbreak of WW3 it should go ahead.

Which as far as i am aware is not that unlikely!