Blue Pullmans

[Hornet]

No, but I did, and for a specific reason. Blue Pullmans were introduced in 1960. That means they were designed c 1958. (And ISTR it was a rushed job.) So when they first hit the rails, they were 'state-of-the-art' - or nearly. And the performance would have matched anything else at the time, and far outperformed regular steam timings.

The Cl 47s came along in late 63 I think it was. That may not seem a long time, but in DE development, it was significant, I'd say.

So comparing a Blue Pullman performance to a Cl 47 with 8 on (which was not, in the normal course of things, an economic load at the time - may have just about been for the pullmans - I can't say) is rather like saying the HSTs are underpowered vs Cl 220s.

Could a Cl 47 or 52 with 8 pullmans (which were heavier than normal Mk 1s I believe) outperform an 8-car Pullman. Marginal, I'd have thought.

But as I say, I am sure I remember reading - I can't remember where - an old TI log of Blue Pullmans on the Thames Valley doing 92-95 for miles on end. Was that exceptional - I can't say.

I can't remember how that run performed on the banks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes, I agree it could be compared, but that was not what I read the OP as saying. I saw the substitute SW and Bristol pullmans on the WR a few times - I'm busting my brain to remember what the locos were - probably Westerns. I have some inkling that once I saw a County on the job once too, but that is probably not correct.

Cl 47s were probably the choice loco in the 70s as the Cl 52s were steadily retired.

I am fairly sure the Midland did not have a spare set of LH pullmans around. Possibly in the very first days, but I never saw it or heard of it. They had a spare six car unit, and that was expensive enough to be kept idle at Reddish every day.

Performance Log of a Paddington Birmingham Blue Pullman 8 car working.

http://locoperformance.tripod.com/edition02/bluepul1.htm

Max speed recorded 82mph.

Comment from the provider of the log.

"In January 1961, I had my first journey on the "Blue Pullman" from Paddington to Birmingham. I was on the wrong side of the train for the mileposts, so the log is station timings only, together with the calculated average speeds between them. I recall that the ambience and exterior finish of the train were not matched by its' riding characteristics, which were dreadful."

http://locoperformance.tripod.com/edition02/dieselmisc.htm

I will add that knowing the climb through Saunderton from working next to the line there for 13 years, the speed up the bank is far from impressive.

Here is a Log of Clan Line with 11 on the back, for comparison

http://locoperformance.tripod.com/edition11/35028sfd85.htm

 

[Ostrich]

I remember when trainspotting at Snowhill me and my mate decided to go to Wolverhampton on a Blue Pullman.
Everybody was sat at tables looking quite posh.
I can remember the looks we got when we walked through with our duffel bags and scruffy state.

Same here, with a number of spotter pals from school if I recall correctly, we rode the Blue Pullman from Leamington Spa to Snow Hill. We sat in awe for the whole journey, quiet as church mice .....

 

[70014IronDuke]

Performance Log of a Paddington Birmingham Blue Pullman 8 car working.

http://locoperformance.tripod.com/edition02/bluepul1.htm

Max speed recorded 82mph.

Comment from the provider of the log.

"In January 1961, I had my first journey on the "Blue Pullman" from Paddington to Birmingham. I was on the wrong side of the train for the mileposts, so the log is station timings only, together with the calculated average speeds between them. I recall that the ambience and exterior finish of the train were not matched by its' riding characteristics, which were dreadful."

http://locoperformance.tripod.com/edition02/dieselmisc.htm

I will add that knowing the climb through Saunderton from working next to the line there for 13 years, the speed up the bank is far from impressive.

Here is a Log of Clan Line with 11 on the back, for comparison

http://locoperformance.tripod.com/edition11/35028sfd85.htm

Dear Hornet,

apologies for later reply. Been busy.

I would not question your knowledge of the new route to Birmingham. I have never travelled on it myself, even to this day. At least, south of Aynho Jcn and north of Old Oak.

EDIT <cough> whoops, that is the new route, isn't it?

But even then, I agree that the Pullman log from Jan 1961 indeed looks anemic. So anemic in fact I wonder if a power unit was not working?

Be that as it may, i wish to argue that you are moving the goal posts. Your original assertion was that a Blue Pullman could not attain maximum speeds in the Thames Valley.

I questioned that - please note I did not question the speeds in the hill climbing section(s) - though I would still be confident that a Castle on 8 would have difficulty in matching them in day-to-day service.

I thought some in her would have more detailed knowledge - it seems I was wrong.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Just reading in the book Blue Pullman about the first test run of a complete six car BP set between St Pancras and Manchester Central that took place on 1st February 1960.

It states the northbound run was rather exhilarating with Bedford being passed at 80mph. and later in journey a top speed of 105mph. was achieved although it doesn't say where, haven't found anything so far on performance on the Thames Valley, will report back if I do.

Must make mention of the fact (as I had not realised) that power for ets came from underfloor Rolls Royce Diesel generator sets in the intermediate cars, thus allowing the main MAN diesel generators in the power cars to provide power purely for traction purposes only.

 

[Hornet]

Dear Hornet,

apologies for later reply. Been busy.

I would not question your knowledge of the new route to Birmingham. I have never travelled on it myself, even to this day. At least, south of Aynho Jcn and north of Old Oak.

EDIT <cough> whoops, that is the new route, isn't it?

But even then, I agree that the Pullman log from Jan 1961 indeed looks anemic. So anemic in fact I wonder if a power unit was not working?

Be that as it may, i wish to argue that you are moving the goal posts. Your original assertion was that a Blue Pullman could not attain maximum speeds in the Thames Valley.

I questioned that - please note I did not question the speeds in the hill climbing section(s) - though I would still be confident that a Castle on 8 would have difficulty in matching them in day-to-day service.

I thought some in her would have more detailed knowledge - it seems I was wrong.

I did a cursory search for timings for the Thames Valley stretch but to no avail. North of Risboro', along the Oxford Plain to Aynho are fairly level, comparable with the Thames Valley. I did find an online timetable resource which shows the following.

1H24 15:10 (3:10 pm) Ex Paddington timed at 1hr 24mins to Leamington Spa. Timings are for a D1XXX (Western or Brush Type 4) hauling up to 420 tons.

1H30 16:50 (4:50 pm) Ex Paddington time at 1hr 26mins to Leamington Spa. Timings are for a Pullman Diesel.

Link to PDF that the above info was taken.

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=574 and click on the "A" PDF to download the WTT.

You may find details of Blue Pullman performance from this society.

http://www.railperf.org.uk/

The recorder of the 1961 timings would have indicated if there were any unit issues.

I am sure that you would conclude that the above timetable is a fair, unbiased representation of timings between Diesel Hauled and Pullmans.

Regards your above post stating "Your original assertion was that a Blue Pullman could not attain maximum speeds in the Thames Valley* (your words), I made no such assertion. In my first post I said "struggle to reach top speed even on the sections through the Thames Valley". A subsequent post I recollected Drivers telling me "The Pullmans would struggle to reach and maintain 90mph". Hope you don't mind me clarifying that for you.

I would still maintain, and socialising with drivers in my early years working for BR (late '70's) and listening to their exploits, that 90mph was achievable but it was a struggle to reach that speed, let alone consistently run at that speed. Perhaps their unreliability was due to the fact that they were worked too hard.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Just reading in the book Blue Pullman about the first test run of a complete six car BP set between St Pancras and Manchester Central that took place on 1st February 1960.

It states the northbound run was rather exhilarating with Bedford being passed at 80mph. and later in journey a top speed of 105mph. was achieved although it doesn't say where, haven't found anything so far on performance on the Thames Valley, will report back if I do.

Must make mention of the fact (as I had not realised) that power for ets came from underfloor Rolls Royce Diesel generator sets in the intermediate cars, thus allowing the main MAN diesel generators in the power cars to provide power purely for traction purposes only.

It's interesting, I'd forgotten that the first test run had hit 105 mph - but in term of the WR sets, it's also moving the goal posts a bit, because of course, the MR sets were on;y 6 carriages, and adding another two to make 8 would have a significant effect on the mass to be shifted and top speed.

Hmmmm, I've just reread your post carefully. I had assumed the 105 mph was down one of the banks leading to Bedford (where even Jubilees were timed in the mid 90s, usually when running late) - but you say the book indicates NORTH of Bedford.

There isn't really anywhere where the train could have safely attained that speed IMO until north of Leicester, around Loughborough. (the banks at Irchester and at north of Desborough are too short).

It would also make sense: towards the end of the test run, with all ok so far, it would be much more likely the inspectors allowed the driver to 'have a go' at what the train could achieve.

TBH, to be doing 80 mph at Bedford was no big deal - indeed, it would only support Hornet's assertion that these units were underpowered. It should have been doing 90 mph there, or close to it - unless, of course, it was on time or already ahead of time - and there was a risk that it would catch up with a steam-hauled working ahead of it. Not at all unlikely.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I did a cursory search for timings for the Thames Valley stretch but to no avail. North of Risboro', along the Oxford Plain to Aynho are fairly level, comparable with the Thames Valley.

OK, I accept your take on this. I was under the impression it was more undulating.

I did find an online timetable resource which shows the following.

1H24 15:10 (3:10 pm) Ex Paddington timed at 1hr 24mins to Leamington Spa. Timings are for a D1XXX (Western or Brush Type 4) hauling up to 420 tons.

1H30 16:50 (4:50 pm) Ex Paddington time at 1hr 26mins to Leamington Spa. Timings are for a Pullman Diesel.

Yes, that's impressive, I agree certainly for the Cl 47/52 load of 420t - we must be talking of 12 on here.

Having said that, you have tweaked another memory - ISTR a post somewhere in the not so dim past (no in here) comparing timings of the Blue Pullman with ordinary service trains in the later 60s which showed the Pullman as timed at 30 second faster than regular trains right on your home patch, ie PDN - Slough or something like that.
Of course, if I can't find it, it's not much use here, is it?

I am sure that you would conclude that the above timetable is a fair, unbiased representation of timings between Diesel Hauled and Pullmans.

Well, it's evidence, I agree, but not conclusive. There are all sorts of reasons why the Pullman might be given a few more minutes due to recovery time needs in the peak, etc.

Regards your above post stating "Your original assertion was that a Blue Pullman could not attain maximum speeds in the Thames Valley* (your words), I made no such assertion. In my first post I said "struggle to reach top speed even on the sections through the Thames Valley". A subsequent post I recollected Drivers telling me "The Pullmans would struggle to reach and maintain 90mph". Hope you don't mind me clarifying that for you.

OK.

I would still maintain, and socialising with drivers in my early years working for BR (late '70's) and listening to their exploits, that 90mph was achievable but it was a struggle to reach that speed, let alone consistently run at that speed. Perhaps their unreliability was due to the fact that they were worked too hard.

Definitely a likely factor. Also, of course, in their last years they were getting on a bit.

In addition, I'm sure that when launched, maintenance crews would have treated the pullmans as high priority. Get to 1970 -72 and their allure was well faded. Depots were having to contend with hydraulic and DE traction, ETH was coming in etc - so a fistfull of problems, and once it was known that the Pullmans were for the chop, well, I can imagine it was more of a plaster job being done, if it would suffice.

 

[Ash Bridge]

It's interesting, I'd forgotten that the first test run had hit 105 mph - but in term of the WR sets, it's also moving the goal posts a bit, because of course, the MR sets were on;y 6 carriages, and adding another two to make 8 would have a significant effect on the mass to be shifted and top speed.

Hmmmm, I've just reread your post carefully. I had assumed the 105 mph was down one of the banks leading to Bedford (where even Jubilees were timed in the mid 90s, usually when running late) - but you say the book indicates NORTH of Bedford.

There isn't really anywhere where the train could have safely attained that speed IMO until north of Leicester, around Loughborough. (the banks at Irchester and at north of Desborough are too short).

It would also make sense: towards the end of the test run, with all ok so far, it would be much more likely the inspectors allowed the driver to 'have a go' at what the train could achieve.

TBH, to be doing 80 mph at Bedford was no big deal - indeed, it would only support Hornet's assertion that these units were underpowered. It should have been doing 90 mph there, or close to it - unless, of course, it was on time or already ahead of time - and there was a risk that it would catch up with a steam-hauled working ahead of it. Not at all unlikely.

Just had a quick check that I had not mis-read, but it clearly states that it was later on in the journey, pity it doesn't go into more detail.

Reading further, BR apparently operated a final run of a BP on Sat. 5th May 1973 (the day after regular services ceased) this departed Paddington at 08:53 running via High Wycombe, Banbury & Leamington Spa up to Coventry and Birmingham N S. From there it went to Bristol TM and eventually reaching Swansea at 14:19.

The return run departed Swansea at 17:10 with Newport passed 6mins late, but some fast running resulted in an arrival at Paddington at 20:02, 18mins earlier than the scheduled 20:20. The train ran at an average speed of 81mph from Newport, and no less than 88mph between Swindon and Reading, perhaps not up to HST standards, but would a 47 or 52/53 manage similar?

Edit: just to add, a stop of 3 mins was made at Cardiff for a crew change.

 

[LWB]

You might want to provide links...

Right click then 'copy video url' then paste into browser.

 

[Taunton]

The engines in the Blue Pullmans were MAN 1,000 hp ones at each end. They were the same as in the D600 North British pioneer Warships.

These latter were known for being underpowered and not particularly speedy, although they rode MUCH better than the mainstream D800 Warships. They had a lot less power than a Class 47/52.

The "emergency" set of loco-hauled Pullmans on the WR was certainly steam hauled, typically by a Castle, in the earlier years of the service, especially on the South Wales service, and didn't particularly come in late compared to the diesels. When it was involved in the fatal collision at Knowle & Dorridge in 1963 it was being hauled by a Western and 9 cars, the standard formation, as the seating was not as efficient (the Firsts were 1+1 and the seconds 2+1, whereas the diesels had narrower seats and one more seat per row throughout). At the time main line trains from Paddington were typically around 11-12 coaches

 

[Monkey Magic]

It is a little bit sad to see the 'Lets Go to Birmingham' video because the driver along with two others was killed in the Knowle and Dorridge accident

 

[ooo]

It is a little bit sad to see the 'Lets Go to Birmingham' video because the driver along with two others was killed in the Knowle and Dorridge accident

What was this accident?

 

[ainsworth74]

What was this accident?

Wikipedia provides coverage of it here.

The Knowle and Dorridge rail crash was a fatal rail crash that occurred at Dorridge railway station in the West Midlands, England, on 15 August 1963. Three people died in the crash after a signalman's error routed a small freight train into the path of an express passenger train which slowed but could not stop before colliding with it.

The accident report is also available on-line courtesy of the Railways Archive website and a link to that is here.

 

[Hornet]

Had a spare couple of hours to look at the Western Region WTT of Winter 1963. Produced a spreadsheet showing four workings leaving Paddington in the Weekday Evening Peak, all of which ran non stop beyond Swindon. They were the:-

4:40pm (16:40) South Wales Pullman.
4:45pm (16:45) Paddington to Taunton.
4:55pm (16:55) Cheltenham Spa Express. (Many would claim that this was the Blue Riband Express Service of the GWR/WR).
5:45pm (17:45) Bristol Pullman.

Timings are based on the WTT. All Mileages are taken from the WTT and speeds are based on Point to Point timings, and sections that have recovery time have been calculated on the basis of both stated time and recovery time. Top Speed and Average Speed are calculated on the basis of the recovery time being added. The Title Row is fairly self explanatory. Mileages have also been converted into Km for those for whom Imperial is a foreign language! (1 Chain is 22 yards, the length between the wickets on a cricket pitch. 10 Chains is 1 Furlong and 80 Chains = 8 Furlongs = 1 Mile).

Two interesting points that came out of this was that the quickest of the four services between Southall and Uffington was the Cheltenham Spa Loco Hauled Express at 70.93 MPH. The South Wales Pullman was virtually identical at 70.83MPH over the same section. The Bristol Pullman had the strangest point to point timings showing a poor average to Steventon before showing a 92.43 MPH average between Steventon and Uffington. There was no recovery time on this service. I can only assume that +92 MPH would be attempted if the run up to Steventon was as per WTT. Any early running meant the service would be given an easier time. Even so the average speed of this service between Southall and Uffington was 68.19 MPH.

For comparison I have added from the Winter 1949 Service TT the 4:55pm (16:55) Cheltenham Express whose average speed between Southall and Swindon was 56.88 MPH.

Links to WTT and STT are listed below:-
http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=610 and click on "A" PDF
http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=569 and click on "A" PDF

Spreadsheet as attached.

 

[Strathclyder]

Here's a higher-quality version of the 'Let's Go To Birmingham' film:
[youtube]?v=NmPzB0qTy4M[/youtube]

 

[Johnuk123]

Here's a higher-quality version of the 'Let's Go To Birmingham' film:
[youtube]?v=NmPzB0qTy4M[/youtube]

Imagine nowadays if your driver had a white coat and peaked cap on, they would look like they should be carrying a crate of milk bottles.

It's also staggering how much infrastructure has been swept aside especially sidings.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Imagine nowadays if your driver had a white coat and peaked cap on, they would look like they should be carrying a crate of milk bottles.

It's also staggering how much infrastructure has been swept aside especially sidings.

I read that Pullman footplate crew were subject to quite a bit of ribbing over their uniforms back in the sixties, Milkmen was certainly one of the nicknames

 

[Taunton]

... the Western Region WTT of Winter 1963.

4:55pm (16:55) Cheltenham Spa Express. (Many would claim that this was the Blue Riband Express Service of the GWR/WR).

Two interesting points that came out of this was that the quickest of the four services between Southall and Uffington was the Cheltenham Spa Loco Hauled Express at 70.93 MPH. The South Wales Pullman was virtually identical at 70.83MPH over the same section.

For comparison I have added from the Winter 1949 Service TT the 4:55pm (16:55) Cheltenham Express whose average speed between Southall and Swindon was 56.88 MPH... the Winter 1949 Service TT the 4:55pm (16:55) Cheltenham Express whose average speed between Southall and Swindon was 56.88 MPH.

The "crack" Cheltenham Spa Express, always known to GWR and later Western Region men as the "Cheltenham Flyer", fastest train in Britain start to stop, was actually the one in the opposite direction, from Swindon to Paddington at 70 mph-plus start to stop, not just Southall to Uffington. As George Behrend so adroitly pointed out, the flying was done miles away from Cheltenham, from which the train departed in completely the opposite direction to London, behind a 2-6-2T to Gloucester, where it reversed and the main engine came on.

I believe in the winter of 1963 the Paddington-Cheltenham services were still steam hauled, being some of the last expresses out of Paddington to be dieselised, along with the Worcester service. So this service which was the fastest would have been a Gloucester depot Castle.

Things were still very slow in 1949 due to poor permanent way from wartime dilapidation.

 

[Hornet]

The "crack" Cheltenham Spa Express, always known to GWR and later Western Region men as the "Cheltenham Flyer", fastest train in Britain start to stop, was actually the one in the opposite direction, from Swindon to Paddington at 70 mph-plus start to stop, not just Southall to Uffington. As George Behrend so adroitly pointed out, the flying was done miles away from Cheltenham, from which the train departed in completely the opposite direction to London, behind a 2-6-2T to Gloucester, where it reversed and the main engine came on.

I believe in the winter of 1963 the Paddington-Cheltenham services were still steam hauled, being some of the last expresses out of Paddington to be dieselised, along with the Worcester service. So this service which was the fastest would have been a Gloucester depot Castle.

Things were still very slow in 1949 due to poor permanent way from wartime dilapidation.

1H60 4.55 pm Cheltenham Spa Express shown as Diesel Hauled in the 1963 Winter WTT. 1T15 5.15 pm The Cathedrals Express shown as Steam Hauled in the same WTT. PDF's attached of the specific 1963 Winter WTT pages.

 

[70014IronDuke]

1H60 4.55 pm Cheltenham Spa Express shown as Diesel Hauled in the 1963 Winter WTT. 1T15 5.15 pm The Cathedrals Express shown as Steam Hauled in the same WTT. PDF's attached of the specific 1963 Winter WTT pages.

(Apologies for lack of correspondence on this thread - totally overwhelmed with work and then down with cold, I was only able to read now and again, passively. )

I'm glad you pointed this out, Hornet. I felt sure that in the 1963 winter TT this train would have been diagrammed for diesel haulage.

I presume that when Castle-worked, the load would have been about 7, max 8 coaches?

Intriguingly, your post raises the issue: was the Cathedrals Express the last named Class 1 train diagrammed for steam into London north of the Thames?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Had a spare couple of hours to look at the Western Region WTT of Winter 1963. Produced a spreadsheet showing four workings leaving Paddington in the Weekday Evening Peak, all of which ran non stop beyond Swindon. They were the:-

4:40pm (16:40) South Wales Pullman.
4:45pm (16:45) Paddington to Taunton.
4:55pm (16:55) Cheltenham Spa Express. (Many would claim that this was the Blue Riband Express Service of the GWR/WR).
5:45pm (17:45) Bristol Pullman.

Timings are based on the WTT. All Mileages are taken from the WTT and speeds are based on Point to Point timings, and sections that have recovery time have been calculated on the basis of both stated time and recovery time. Top Speed and Average Speed are calculated on the basis of the recovery time being added. The Title Row is fairly self explanatory. Mileages have also been converted into Km for those for whom Imperial is a foreign language! (1 Chain is 22 yards, the length between the wickets on a cricket pitch. 10 Chains is 1 Furlong and 80 Chains = 8 Furlongs = 1 Mile).

Two interesting points that came out of this was that the quickest of the four services between Southall and Uffington was the Cheltenham Spa Loco Hauled Express at 70.93 MPH. The South Wales Pullman was virtually identical at 70.83MPH over the same section. The Bristol Pullman had the strangest point to point timings showing a poor average to Steventon before showing a 92.43 MPH average between Steventon and Uffington. There was no recovery time on this service. I can only assume that +92 MPH would be attempted if the run up to Steventon was as per WTT. Any early running meant the service would be given an easier time. Even so the average speed of this service between Southall and Uffington was 68.19 MPH.


Spreadsheet as attached.

That's a lot of work, thank you.

It still leaves us with a rather non-conclusive result though, with regard to your original assertion that the Pullmans were underpowered/struggled to maintain 90 mph, doesn't it? (If anything, somewhat the opposite.)

The only thing it proves is that the timetablers were in some way forcing Pullman drivers on the BRistol run to overspeed!

 

[ScottyStitch]

As an aside from the interesting discussion regarding power and performance of the BPs, is there much evidence in the book a couple of members have of the BP sets running north of Hadrian's Wall? Obviously on charter/special duties.....

 

[Ash Bridge]

As an aside from the interesting discussion regarding power and performance of the BPs, is there much evidence in the book a couple of members have of the BP sets running north of Hadrian's Wall? Obviously on charter/special duties.....

Hi, welcome to the forum,

I don't have the BP book to hand at the moment so unable to check, what I do recall reading was that there was a plan considered for keeping a set for charter use after withdrawal, it was proposed that a unit would be sent to BREL Glasgow for refurbishment, sadly as we know this wasn't to materialise, if I find anything more I will report back.

 

[sprinterguy]

As an aside from the interesting discussion regarding power and performance of the BPs, is there much evidence in the book a couple of members have of the BP sets running north of Hadrian's Wall? Obviously on charter/special duties.....

The furthest north a Blue Pullman set ever got was Hartlepool. A Western Region set worked there from Coventry on Saturday 13th March 1965, on a charter for the Rugby Union Championship Final.

 

[ScottyStitch]

Thanks chaps. And thanks for the welcome.

 

[Taunton]

The London Midland sets were used maybe more than once on an excursion for the Grand National from St Pancras to Aintree, presumably taking the CLC route beyond Manchester.

 

[Ash Bridge]

The London Midland sets were used maybe more than once on an excursion for the Grand National from St Pancras to Aintree, presumably taking the CLC route beyond Manchester.

Was reading that they were used for quite a few charters in their day, especially the WR sets, such as specials to Leeds, Plymouth including an unconfirmed run to that destination that went out via Newton Abbott, and returned via Tavistock & Okehampton, and not forgetting the run to Hartlepool mentioned up thread by sprinterguy.