Bought Child all area day saver instead of 16-18 day saver

[WesternLancer]

yes however she would've missed her train had she not used the machine as it was very busy

When you have drafted the Appeal up it may be worth posting he draft here so Penalty Fare experts can check your wording and help make it as good as it can be to get a successful outcome.

 

[gray1404]

Did they have their Railcard on them?

They were also incorrectly recorded as a child on the PF notice and as such the PF amount is incorrect.

 

[TCharn]

Did they have their Railcard on them?

They were also incorrectly recorded as a child on the PF notice and as such the PF amount is incorrect.

They were recorded as an "05 adult" and then a child later on which I assume is because they are under the age of 18 and so legally are not an adult, they had the ticket on them but as it was a day saver it is a discounted ticket and so has different rules around purchasing seen here https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/daily-travel/day-saver/ it clearly states that "You can now buy an All Area Adult and 18 and under Day Saver online" so it doesn't distinguish between the child and 16-18 day saver tickets because well they are identical, she gained nothing financially from travelling using the child ticket and so merseyrail obviously lost no money in fact they gained money because she had to buy another 16-18 day saver to get through the moorfields security to get back to chester as they did not take the fine as evidence for a ticket purchase. I understand why fines are provided to those who travel with child tickets when are 16 and above because they are different price but as day savers are classed as discounted tickets based on being a young person it says that here https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/young-person-tickets/ they don't have a railcard but on the merseyrail website it clearly states that
"Passengers aged 18 years or under can now buy Young Person’s Railpass and Day Saver tickets for travel in the Merseyside area." Had she bought her ticket online she would not have been fined because it would be classed as a "5-18 young persons day saver".

"Young Person’s tickets are now available for 16, 17 and 18 year old's offering better value and more affordable travel.​

Following changes to the law meaning young people must stay in education or work based training until their 18th Birthday, Merseyrail have made changes to their ticket products to bring more affordable travel to younger passengers.

Passengers aged 18 years or under can now buy Young Person’s Railpass and Day Saver tickets for travel in the Merseyside area."

The fact it was a day saver ticket is why we have some ground for appeal because the reason for the child ticket fines is because people will buy return and single child tickets when they're 16 or older so they don't have to pay as much but this does not apply to this scenario with a day saver ticket because 5-18 year olds pay the same amount of money for the day saver privileges as they are discounted tickets.

When you have drafted the Appeal up it may be worth posting he draft here so Penalty Fare experts can check your wording and help make it as good as it can be to get a successful outcome.

Will do, going to do it with her and we still have some time but honestly thank you to everyone on this thread for your help, both me and my girlfriend are not trying to steal from merseyrail we both buy tickets every journey as we should and if the ticket had been a different price then the PF would be warranted regardless of the human error in buying the ticket we would be upset obviously but the tickets are the same price in this case and so the PF is not fair in my view.

When you have drafted the Appeal up it may be worth posting he draft here so Penalty Fare experts can check your wording and help make it as good as it can be to get a successful outcome.

Hi, we are doing the appeal now.

It is asking for information:
"Your appeal should include:

• a copy of your notice
• any relevant ticket you may have held and/or why you could not produce a valid ticket or other authority to travel
• where you started your journey and when you arrived at that station
• the train you took for your journey
• any other information or documentation relevant to your appeal, i.e. Season Ticket, Railcard or Photocard etc."

I am guessing we should take a photo of the notice and the ticket and upload it on the computer but what do we put for the train she took? Do we just put the time of the train or do we need to give a train number?

 

[WesternLancer]

They were recorded as an "05 adult" and then a child later on which I assume is because they are under the age of 18 and so legally are not an adult, they had the ticket on them but as it was a day saver it is a discounted ticket and so has different rules around purchasing seen here https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/daily-travel/day-saver/ it clearly states that "You can now buy an All Area Adult and 18 and under Day Saver online" so it doesn't distinguish between the child and 16-18 day saver tickets because well they are identical, she gained nothing financially from travelling using the child ticket and so merseyrail obviously lost no money in fact they gained money because she had to buy another 16-18 day saver to get through the moorfields security to get back to chester as they did not take the fine as evidence for a ticket purchase. I understand why fines are provided to those who travel with child tickets when are 16 and above because they are different price but as day savers are classed as discounted tickets based on being a young person it says that here https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/young-person-tickets/ they don't have a railcard but on the merseyrail website it clearly states that
"Passengers aged 18 years or under can now buy Young Person’s Railpass and Day Saver tickets for travel in the Merseyside area." Had she bought her ticket online she would not have been fined because it would be classed as a "5-18 young persons day saver".

"Young Person’s tickets are now available for 16, 17 and 18 year old's offering better value and more affordable travel.​

Following changes to the law meaning young people must stay in education or work based training until their 18th Birthday, Merseyrail have made changes to their ticket products to bring more affordable travel to younger passengers.

Passengers aged 18 years or under can now buy Young Person’s Railpass and Day Saver tickets for travel in the Merseyside area."

The fact it was a day saver ticket is why we have some ground for appeal because the reason for the child ticket fines is because people will buy return and single child tickets when they're 16 or older so they don't have to pay as much but this does not apply to this scenario with a day saver ticket because 5-18 year olds pay the same amount of money for the day saver privileges as they are discounted tickets.


Will do, going to do it with her and we still have some time but honestly thank you to everyone on this thread for your help, both me and my girlfriend are not trying to steal from merseyrail we both buy tickets every journey as we should and if the ticket had been a different price then the PF would be warranted regardless of the human error in buying the ticket we would be upset obviously but the tickets are the same price in this case and so the PF is not fair in my view.


Hi, we are doing the appeal now.

It is asking for information:
"Your appeal should include:

• a copy of your notice
• any relevant ticket you may have held and/or why you could not produce a valid ticket or other authority to travel
• where you started your journey and when you arrived at that station
• the train you took for your journey
• any other information or documentation relevant to your appeal, i.e. Season Ticket, Railcard or Photocard etc."

I am guessing we should take a photo of the notice and the ticket and upload it on the computer but what do we put for the train she took? Do we just put the time of the train or do we need to give a train number?

Just time of train I would think because most ppl would have no idea how to find out train numbers (tho someone here could do that for you if it was required) - I would think eg 10.15 train from Chester to Liverpool would suffice.

And yes, I would think just upload pics of any docs / notices / tickets (not sure if they have a upload file size limit you may need to bear in mind)

 

[scrapy]

This is so utterly ridiculous (because they've lost nothing)

Whilst the fares to the customer are the same, it's often the case with local authority discounts to students aged 16 or over that the train operator is subsidised by the authority for the full or part difference between the fare paid by the passenger and the full adult fare.

Where a child ticket is selected the train operator receives only the child fare.

 

[Snow1964]

If the TVM doesn’t sell the full range of tickets then I guess they’ll full back on was the ticket office open, was it open?

Indeed in the early days of the Saver people were instructed to buy child tickets until the issuing mechanisms were updated to allow the Saver to be selected. I don't know why they didn't stick with that.

Sounds like the issuing mechanism (ticket vending machines at Chester) have not yet been updated to sell the ticket, so unless those instructions had a defined end date, it appears in this case they still apply.

It would be helpful if someone near Chester was able to state what the TVM sells, does it sell £2.95 (under 18) day saver or £x Adult day saver, if the alternative states adult then that is clearly wrong ticket for 17 year old (and in theory a child travelling on a adult ticket is also invalid, because have not paid correct fare, and thus have wrong ticket).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be helpful if someone near Chester was able to state what the TVM sells, does it sell £2.95 (under 18) day saver or £x Adult day saver, if the alternative states adult then that is clearly wrong ticket for 17 year old (and in theory a child travelling on a adult ticket is also invalid, because have not paid correct fare, and thus have wrong ticket).

I bet no child has ever been prosecuted or otherwise penalised for holding an adult fare ticket.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I bet no child has ever been prosecuted or otherwise penalised for holding an adult fare ticket.

Because they wouldn't be breaking the rules: per the NCoT sourced from https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...8QFnoECBIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2gkp3A2_LyFP0KEz0Qz9_V

6.3 Unless Condition 6.4 applies, children aged between 5 years and 15 years must have a
valid Ticket for travel but are entitled to a “child” discount on most Tickets. If a discount is
not available, it will be made clear to you when you buy your Ticket.
6.4 Special arrangements apply for accompanied children aged under 11 in the London pay
as you go zonal fare area. For details, please go to: https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-
payments/travel-for-under-18s/travelling-with-children

While a child may be entitled to a discount, I can see nothing that requires them to make use of the discount.

 

[island]

Because they wouldn't be breaking the rules: per the NCoT sourced from https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...8QFnoECBIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2gkp3A2_LyFP0KEz0Qz9_V



While a child may be entitled to a discount, I can see nothing that requires them to make use of the discount.

Indeed. And it is occasionally cheaper for a child to use an adult ticket, for example when two adults and one child travel on a journey eligible for GroupSave.

 

[Haywain]

Indeed. And it is occasionally cheaper for a child to use an adult ticket, for example when two adults and one child travel on a journey eligible for GroupSave.

In that example it is not cheaper for the child but cheaper for the two adults and for the whole group. The child will actually be overpaying.

 

[island]

In that example it is not cheaper for the child but cheaper for the two adults and for the whole group. The child will actually be overpaying.

I think it's quite obvious I meant cheaper overall . Children travelling with adults don't tend to pay for their own tickets.

 

[Haywain]

I think it's quite obvious I meant cheaper overall . Children travelling with adults don't tend to pay for their own tickets.

It's obvious to you but I have had to explain it in such detail in the past to people standing right in front of me, so I felt it should be clarified.

 

[Foxcover]

It would be helpful if someone near Chester was able to state what the TVM sells, does it sell £2.95 (under 18) day saver or £x Adult day saver,

My 17 yr old daughter (16-17 saver) bought a Chester-Spital (£3.30) last week at the Chester ticket machine. The Chester gate line attendant told her she should purchase the £2.95 child day saver in future as it would save her money, so yes, I presume it does sell the £2.95.

 

[janb]

My 17 yr old daughter (16-17 saver) bought a Chester-Spital (£3.30) last week at the Chester ticket machine. The Chester gate line attendant told her she should purchase the £2.95 child day saver in future as it would save her money, so yes, I presume it does sell the £2.95.

To be precise as a 17 year old, it would be the 16-18 Day Saver (not to be confused with 16-17 saver railcard) at £2.95 that she could obtain in future not the child (5-15) day saver at £2.95 which can land you in trouble as the OP would attest.

 

[Foxcover]

To be precise as a 17 year old, it would be the 16-18 Day Saver (not to be confused with 16-17 saver railcard) at £2.95 that she could obtain in future not the child (5-15) day saver at £2.95 which can land you in trouble as the OP would attest.

Thanks, appreciated! It just illustrates though how easy it is to get this wrong - the number of permutations of saver, day saver, railcard, 16-18, 16-17, not to mention some of them being exactly the same price, for one single journey from Chester, is crazy.

 

[JBuchananGB]

In a separate thread, it seems a penalty has been issued to a 13 year old holder of a 16-18 daysaver, for failing to produce proof of age as required with that ticket.

 

[Red Rover]

I bet no child has ever been prosecuted or otherwise penalised for holding an adult fare ticket.

They probably have if that ticket was bought and used by an adult and they used it afterwards, day savers and bin dipping occurs often.

 

[TCharn]

Just time of train I would think because most ppl would have no idea how to find out train numbers (tho someone here could do that for you if it was required) - I would think eg 10.15 train from Chester to Liverpool would suffice.

And yes, I would think just upload pics of any docs / notices / tickets (not sure if they have a upload file size limit you may need to bear in mind)

Not sure exactly what time she took the train, does anyone know how you can check the previous train times? on the 20/3/2024 at just after 16:46 (When she bought the ticket) from Chester to Liverpool Central she got the fine at 18:05 at Liverpool Central so it's obviously some time between then.

Whilst the fares to the customer are the same, it's often the case with local authority discounts to students aged 16 or over that the train operator is subsidised by the authority for the full or part difference between the fare paid by the passenger and the full adult fare.

Where a child ticket is selected the train operator receives only the child fare.

The discount is equal to anyone under the age of 19 is it not? Correct me if I'm wrong but on the Mersey rail website it says that day saver discounts apply to anyone under the age of 19 https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/young-person-tickets/

"Following changes to the law meaning young people must stay in education or work based training until their 18th Birthday, Mersey rail have made changes to their ticket products to bring more affordable travel to younger passengers.

Passengers aged 18 years or under can now buy Young Person’s Railpass and Day Saver tickets for travel in the Merseyside area."

The website doesn't distinguish between a child day saver and a 16-18 day saver so if the ticket would be bought online it would be a young persons day saver which applies to anyone 5-18?

They probably have if that ticket was bought and used by an adult and they used it afterwards, day savers and bin dipping occurs often.

How would they know that though? again seems pretty harsh. Maybe Mersey rail should spend more time making sure their staff actually check tickets instead of letting someone walk through just because they have any old ticket which happens all the time at Liverpool central

 

[Red Rover]

How would they know that though? again seems pretty harsh. Maybe Mersey rail should spend more time making sure their staff actually check tickets instead of letting someone walk through just because they have any old ticket which happens all the time at Liverpool central

They can tell by the issue and going through cctv if they were so inclined, they checked the ticket on this occasion and here we are.

 

[WesternLancer]

Not sure exactly what time she took the train, does anyone know how you can check the previous train times? on the 20/3/2024 at just after 16:46 (When she bought the ticket) from Chester to Liverpool Central she got the fine at 18:05 at Liverpool Central so it's obviously some time between then.


The discount is equal to anyone under the age of 19 is it not? Correct me if I'm wrong but on the Mersey rail website it says that day saver discounts apply to anyone under the age of 19 https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/young-person-tickets/

"Following changes to the law meaning young people must stay in education or work based training until their 18th Birthday, Mersey rail have made changes to their ticket products to bring more affordable travel to younger passengers.

Passengers aged 18 years or under can now buy Young Person’s Railpass and Day Saver tickets for travel in the Merseyside area."

The website doesn't distinguish between a child day saver and a 16-18 day saver so if the ticket would be bought online it would be a young persons day saver which applies to anyone 5-18?


How would they know that though? again seems pretty harsh. Maybe Mersey rail should spend more time making sure their staff actually check tickets instead of letting someone walk through just because they have any old ticket which happens all the time at Liverpool central

For the train time try Recent Train Times website. If you can’t get on with it to find the info please say.

 

[TCharn]

For the train time try Recent Train Times website. If you can’t get on with it to find the info please say.

found it thank you

Just time of train I would think because most ppl would have no idea how to find out train numbers (tho someone here could do that for you if it was required) - I would think eg 10.15 train from Chester to Liverpool would suffice.

And yes, I would think just upload pics of any docs / notices / tickets (not sure if they have a upload file size limit you may need to bear in mind)

Here is the appeal so far:

Copy of notice provided in upload files.
Proof of 16-18 day saver later purchased provided in upload files
Journey started at Chester station on the 20/3/2024 at 16:44 and the ticket was purchased from a TVM at 16:46.
Train was taken at 17:15 from Chester and arrived at Liverpool Central at 18:00

Ticket purchased from a TVM was a child day saver which is an identical price to the 16-18 day saver both at £2.95 for an all area day saver, Merseyrails website states that day savers are discounted ticket prices here: https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/young-person-tickets/ “Following changes to the law meaning young people must stay in education or work based training until their 18th Birthday, Merseyrail have made changes to their ticket products to bring more affordable travel to younger passengers.
Passengers aged 18 years or under can now buy Young Person’s Railpass and Day Saver tickets for travel in the Merseyside area “ and does not distinguish between child and 16-18 day savers here: https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/daily-travel/day-saver/ It shows that there are two options for buying a daysaver ticket the “Adult (19yrs+)” and the “Child / Young Person (5-18yrs)” as the tickets are identical in price there was no financial gain for me travelling with a child day saver and Merseyrail lost no money. The discount of being under the age of 19 applies to me as a 17 year old and Merseyrails terms and conditions state that a person under the age of 19 can travel on a young persons priced Merseyrail day saver. Therefore a valid ticket was held and should have been accepted.
A second day saver had to be purchased at 21:59 at Moorfields because the security refused to accept the fine as evidence for a ticket purchase.

 

[TCharn]

For the train time try Recent Train Times website. If you can’t get on with it to find the info please say.

Apologies for the delay, both me and my girlfriend have been pretty busy with school and work and she's been trying to work to get the money to pay for the fine if she has to but hopefully once we send the appeal it freezes the 21 day process before the fine becomes 100 pounds

 

[WesternLancer]

Here is the appeal so far:

Copy of notice provided in upload files.
Proof of 16-18 day saver later purchased provided in upload files
Journey started at Chester station on the 20/3/2024 at 16:44 and the ticket was purchased from a TVM at 16:46.
Train was taken at 17:15 from Chester and arrived at Liverpool Central at 18:00

Ticket purchased from a TVM was a child day saver which is an identical price to the 16-18 day saver both at £2.95 for an all area day saver, Merseyrails website states that day savers are discounted ticket prices here: https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/young-person-tickets/ “Following changes to the law meaning young people must stay in education or work based training until their 18th Birthday, Merseyrail have made changes to their ticket products to bring more affordable travel to younger passengers.
Passengers aged 18 years or under can now buy Young Person’s Railpass and Day Saver tickets for travel in the Merseyside area “ and does not distinguish between child and 16-18 day savers here: https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/daily-travel/day-saver/ It shows that there are two options for buying a daysaver ticket the “Adult (19yrs+)” and the “Child / Young Person (5-18yrs)” as the tickets are identical in price there was no financial gain for me travelling with a child day saver and Merseyrail lost no money. The discount of being under the age of 19 applies to me as a 17 year old and Merseyrails terms and conditions state that a person under the age of 19 can travel on a young persons priced Merseyrail day saver. Therefore a valid ticket was held and should have been accepted.
A second day saver had to be purchased at 21:59 at Moorfields because the security refused to accept the fine as evidence for a ticket purchase.

Hi - if this isn't already in I'd just suggest some minor tweaks - hope the below is clear

eg

• inserting some paragraph breaks if possible to aid clarity for the reader,
• added a bit of punctuation for clarity,
• added leading capitals for the names of specific ticket types.
• major words changes are in strikethrough so you can easily see them in the draft
• Added a final line for clarity of the point you are making

I do not know if it is worth / important to add the information that the child Day Saver button was selected by mistake at the ticket machine.

Other Penalty Fare experts may be able to quote the section of the legislation that means a valid ticket was held - if so this could be added

I hope this is all clear and hope it helps


Copy of notice provided in upload files.
Proof of 16-18 day saver later purchased provided in upload files
Journey started at Chester station on the 20/3/2024 at 16:44 and the ticket was purchased from a TVM at 16:46.
Train was taken at 17:15 from Chester and arrived at Liverpool Central at 18:00

Ticket purchased from a TVM was a 'Child Day Saver' which is an identical price to the '16-18 Day Saver' both at £2.95 for an all area day saver, Merseyrail's website states that Day Savers are discounted ticket - prices here: https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/young-person-tickets/ and states:

“Following changes to the law meaning young people must stay in education or work based training until their 18th Birthday, Merseyrail have made changes to their ticket products to bring more affordable travel to younger passengers.
Passengers aged 18 years or under can now buy Young Person’s Railpass and Day Saver tickets for travel in the Merseyside area.“ and does not distinguish between child and 16-18 day savers here: https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/daily-travel/day-saver/

It shows that there are two options for buying a Daysaver ticket the “Adult (19yrs+)” and the “Child / Young Person (5-18yrs)”. As the tickets are identical in price there was no financial gain for me travelling with a Child Day Saver and Merseyrail lost no money.

The discount of being under the age of 19 applies to me as a 17 year old and Merseyrail's Terms and Conditions state that a person under the age of 19 can travel on a young persons priced Merseyrail Day Saver. Therefore a valid ticket was held and should have been accepted.

A second Day Saver had to be purchased at 21:59 at Moorfields because the ticket inspection staff security refused to accept the fine Penalty ticket issued as evidence for a ticket purchase.

On the basis that I held a valid ticket in line with Merseyrail's Terms and Conditions I contest that this is a valid Appeal and I should not have pay the Penalty Fare, and also that the ticket I bought later in the day at Moorfields should be refunded.

 

[TCharn]

Hi - if this isn't already in I'd just suggest some minor tweaks - hope the below is clear

eg

• inserting some paragraph breaks if possible to aid clarity for the reader,
• added a bit of punctuation for clarity,
• added leading capitals for the names of specific ticket types.
• major words changes are in strikethrough so you can easily see them in the draft
• Added a final line for clarity of the point you are making

I do not know if it is worth / important to add the information that the child Day Saver button was selected by mistake at the ticket machine.

Other Penalty Fare experts may be able to quote the section of the legislation that means a valid ticket was held - if so this could be added

I hope this is all clear and hope it helps


Copy of notice provided in upload files.
Proof of 16-18 day saver later purchased provided in upload files
Journey started at Chester station on the 20/3/2024 at 16:44 and the ticket was purchased from a TVM at 16:46.
Train was taken at 17:15 from Chester and arrived at Liverpool Central at 18:00

Ticket purchased from a TVM was a 'Child Day Saver' which is an identical price to the '16-18 Day Saver' both at £2.95 for an all area day saver, Merseyrail's website states that Day Savers are discounted ticket - prices here: https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/young-person-tickets/ and states:

“Following changes to the law meaning young people must stay in education or work based training until their 18th Birthday, Merseyrail have made changes to their ticket products to bring more affordable travel to younger passengers.
Passengers aged 18 years or under can now buy Young Person’s Railpass and Day Saver tickets for travel in the Merseyside area.“ and does not distinguish between child and 16-18 day savers here: https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/daily-travel/day-saver/

It shows that there are two options for buying a Daysaver ticket the “Adult (19yrs+)” and the “Child / Young Person (5-18yrs)”. As the tickets are identical in price there was no financial gain for me travelling with a Child Day Saver and Merseyrail lost no money.

The discount of being under the age of 19 applies to me as a 17 year old and Merseyrail's Terms and Conditions state that a person under the age of 19 can travel on a young persons priced Merseyrail Day Saver. Therefore a valid ticket was held and should have been accepted.

A second Day Saver had to be purchased at 21:59 at Moorfields because the ticket inspection staff security refused to accept the fine Penalty ticket issued as evidence for a ticket purchase.

On the basis that I held a valid ticket in line with Merseyrail's Terms and Conditions I contest that this is a valid Appeal and I should not have pay the Penalty Fare, and also that the ticket I bought later in the day at Moorfields should be refunded.

Thank you so much, absolute hero

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you so much, absolute hero

Cheers - and very best of luck with it!

If there are further stages you need to pursue then head back here for more advice as things progress (I think Penalty Fare Appeals go to 3 stages and often posted on here that only at 3rd stage do they get a proper fresh look at them)