Bought wrong ticket type - £103 fine!

[Titfield]

As an aside I have a National Express Senior Coachcard and when I book online I am required to enter the card number and expiry date. It wont let me proceed to purchase without those details if I am claming the discount.

 

[1955LR]

I went down to West Somerset Railway last week by Train from Hereford. Asked for my card on 2 occasions, once on the way down & once on the way back. That was on Cross Country

 

[Haywain]

As an aside I have a National Express Senior Coachcard and when I book online I am required to enter the card number and expiry date. It wont let me proceed to purchase without those details if I am claming the discount.

Which is a real pain in the neck when you just want to check times and fares.

 

[AlterEgo]

Which is a real pain in the neck when you just want to check times and fares.

How is that a pain if you do it at the purchase stage? It would save half the people coming to this part of the forum quite a lot of time, and would be easier to deduce people who’d made honest mistakes from chancers.

 

[Haywain]

How is that a pain if you do it at the purchase stage? It would save half the people coming to this part of the forum quite a lot of time, and would be easier to deduce people who’d made honest mistakes from chancers.

It’s done at the enquiry stage, before you get any results.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s done at the enquiry stage, before you get any results.

National Express? No it isn't; you enter your coachcard details at the payment stage.

 

[Haywain]

National Express? No it isn't; you enter your coachcard details at the payment stage.

Not on my app. Here’s a screenshot - note the “Add coach card” bit:

 

[spag23]

I paid for a railcard but NEVER get asked for it, does anyone know why ticket inspectors never ask?

From this forum, it seems RPIs only ask people who haven't got one! Sixth sense?
I'm like James H, and present it automatically at the ticket office before they ask.

 

[AlterEgo]

Not on my app. Here’s a screenshot - not the “Add coach card” bit:

It's almost like adding the "enter coachcard details" at the payment stage (as it does on the NX desktop site!) might solve your problem and half of the people's in this forum. However, I wait with bated breath for the industry to take even the smallest of measures to stop people a) getting caught out and annoyed and/or b) paying too low a fare for their journey.

I was raising this when I worked at Virgin Trains in 2011.

 

[spag23]

The TOCs face a choice:
a. Insist on measures that make some checks on Railcard possession during online sales. Minimal cost, vastly improved compliance, improved customer relations. Less traffic on this forum!
b. Keep collecting penalty fares and £100 "settlement" fees from people who make online mistakes, or forget their expiry dates. Result: Maximised income.

 

[Haywain]

The TOCs face a choice:
a. Insist on measures that make some checks on Railcard possession during online sales. Minimal cost, vastly improved compliance, improved customer relations. Less traffic on this forum!
b. Keep collecting penalty fares and £100 "settlement" fees from people who make online mistakes, or forget their expiry dates. Result: Maximised income.

Alternatively, customers face a choice:
a. Ensure that they buy or renew a railcard before travelling when a discount has been claimed. Minimal cost.
b. Keep paying penalty fares and facing potential prosecution. Significantly higher expense.

 

[BRX]

Why is it so often the case in these forums that when a suggestion is made, for how to make the rail passenger's life easier, there is always some counter-statement that the passenger must instead take responsibility (and pay) for their mistakes, forgetfulness or lack of research? What's behind this attitude - is it to discourage people from using the railways or is it just a desire to punish those who make errors?

Is it to teach the feckless public a lesson for not spending sufficient time avoiding getting caught out by one of Europe's most complicated and confusing ticketing systems?

 

[spag23]

Alternatively, customers face a choice:
a. Ensure that they buy or renew a railcard before travelling when a discount has been claimed. Minimal cost.
b. Keep paying penalty fares and facing potential prosecution. Significantly higher expense.

But the many customers who mistakenly apply a Railcard discount never realised that they even faced "Haywain's Choice", let alone made a deliberate decision for b. They wouldn't have got into Scenario b if the TOC had chosen to put reasonable measures in place to verify the Railcard during online booking.
Like AlterEgo in post #39 and BRX in #42, I despair of industry resistance to this.
It's as if the TOCs savour the extra income that they could easily stem at source.
And surely RPIs would appreciate having to confront fewer unhappy customers?

 

[Doubleplus]

The TOCs face a choice:
a. Insist on measures that make some checks on Railcard possession during online sales. Minimal cost, vastly improved compliance, improved customer relations. Less traffic on this forum!
b. Keep collecting penalty fares and £100 "settlement" fees from people who make online mistakes, or forget their expiry dates. Result: Maximised income.

Is the view really that penalty fares and the like are valuable “income” or “profit”, or is there not a school of thought that says that such monies are likely only the tip of the iceberg, and that even with the extra fees and penalties charged, they may represent only the small portion of the total underpaid travel that the system was able to detect? Such that making it easier to buy the correct fare to begin with would result in vastly more income than any notional drop in fines?

 

[AlterEgo]

Is the view really that penalty fares and the like are valuable “income” or “profit”, or is there not a school of thought that says that such monies are likely only the tip of the iceberg, and that even with the extra fees and penalties charged, they may represent only the small portion of the total underpaid travel that the system was able to detect? Such that making it easier to buy the correct fare to begin with would result in vastly more income than any notional drop in fines?

Yes, probably. If you frame it as I did earlier: “some customers are accidentally paying too little for their journeys” and remove the whole penalty fare stuff from the discussion, suddenly ears might prick up.

 

[35B]

It's almost like adding the "enter coachcard details" at the payment stage (as it does on the NX desktop site!) might solve your problem and half of the people's in this forum. However, I wait with bated breath for the industry to take even the smallest of measures to stop people a) getting caught out and annoyed and/or b) paying too low a fare for their journey.

I was raising this when I worked at Virgin Trains in 2011.

As someone who has made bookings for others, well in advance of travel, the requirement to hold a railcard and supply valid details at the point of sale would in practice displace one set of issues and create another. Taking one common scenario - the expired railcard - I would like to see how you code avoid a "make sure you have an up to date card on you" "loophole" if a railcard is valid for a remaining 2 weeks, and the booking is made a month in advance.

 

[AlterEgo]

As someone who has made bookings for others, well in advance of travel, the requirement to hold a railcard and supply valid details at the point of sale would in practice displace one set of issues and create another. Taking one common scenario - the expired railcard - I would like to see how you code avoid a "make sure you have an up to date card on you" "loophole" if a railcard is valid for a remaining 2 weeks, and the booking is made a month in advance.

A prompt which says “your railcard will expire before travel. You must renew your railcard before you travel.” Or even the ability to renew railcards up to three months in advance might be a step forward. None of this is too hard to solve.

 

[Watershed]

A prompt which says “your railcard will expire before travel. You must renew your railcard before you travel.” Or even the ability to renew railcards up to three months in advance might be a step forward. None of this is too hard to solve.

Indeed. It's well within the gift of the industry to resolve it, but it's easier simply to allow people to make mistakes or deliberately dodge the fare - and then apply disproportionate penalties to those who are "caught".

 

[spag23]

A prompt which says “your railcard will expire before travel. You must renew your railcard before you travel.”

Agreed, as covered in post#23

 

[Haywain]

I despair of industry resistance to this.

I am not the industry. I am someone who presented an alternative view to you. Your view may have some merit but all responsibility cannot be placed on only one side.

 

[Titfield]

It's almost like adding the "enter coachcard details" at the payment stage (as it does on the NX desktop site!) might solve your problem and half of the people's in this forum. However, I wait with bated breath for the industry to take even the smallest of measures to stop people a) getting caught out and annoyed and/or b) paying too low a fare for their journey.

I was raising this when I worked at Virgin Trains in 2011.

Not sure if there is a misunderstanding but on my lap top how it works:

At the enquiry stage declare I have a coachcard.(and thus the fares shown have the discount applied)

At the payment stage provide the coachcard number and expiry date and make payment.

 

[Haywain]

Not sure if there is a misunderstanding but on my lap top how it works:

At the enquiry stage declare I have a coachcard.(and thus the fares shown have the discount applied)

At the payment stage provide the coachcard number and expiry date and make payment.

And on the app you have to declare the coach card including the card number at the enquiry stage.

 

[BRX]

I am not the industry. I am someone who presented an alternative view to you. Your view may have some merit but all responsibility cannot be placed on only one side.

No-one has suggested that all responsibility can or should be placed only on the TOCs' side.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

all responsibility cannot be placed on only one side.

This is probably the nub. The railways could (and to my mind should) go further in warning that it's important to have a valid railcard if your ticket requires one. But customers should not expect to be nursemaided throughout: they should be prepared to take responsibility and think about whether they meet the conditions of the railcard that they are voluntarily using.

 

[BRX]

But customers should not expect to be nursemaided throughout: they should be prepared to take responsibility and think about whether they meet the conditions of the railcard that they are voluntarily using.

Again, no-one's said anything that disagrees with this.

 

[nanstallon]

The cards (no pun intended) are all held by the railway as the law stands. You can help yourself by making a note in your diary. When I buy a railcard, I make a note of renewal date at the back of my diary to enter into the following year's diary.

Without wanting to seem sexist, I do notice that women ticket inspectors/ conductors nearly always ask to see the railcard as well as the ticket, their male colleagues less so.

 

[Haywain]

You can help yourself by making a note in your diary.

You could try looking at the railcard - very one I have ever seen has the expiry date prominently printed on the front.

 

[fandroid]

Because the OP did not pass through an automatic barrier. They passed through a 'manned' barrier, where staff often (if not always) ask for Railcards to be shown.

There is a lot of manual ticket checking at Piccadilly of passengers coming off incoming trains, even when there are functioning automatic gates.

 

[WesternLancer]

Why is it so often the case in these forums that when a suggestion is made, for how to make the rail passenger's life easier, there is always some counter-statement that the passenger must instead take responsibility (and pay) for their mistakes, forgetfulness or lack of research? What's behind this attitude - is it to discourage people from using the railways or is it just a desire to punish those who make errors?

Is it to teach the feckless public a lesson for not spending sufficient time avoiding getting caught out by one of Europe's most complicated and confusing ticketing systems?

I suspect a seep seated culture that tends to exist in sectors where the future of the business is not determined by the ability to win more customers and offer good or improved passenger service, but a recognition that 'someone else' - ie the govt - will make up the shortfall with subsidy for ever - and then an unholy alliance of people who resent paying the subsidy can then advance the argument that it would be better to close it all down, vs those who find it easier to put things in the 'too difficult to bother' box.

The fact that - in the case of railcards - having an integrated system or reminders and checks before final purchase might actually result in increased sales of railcards and thus increased desire on railcard holders to travel (I assume the commercial reason why railcards were invented in the 1st place)seems to pass all the key decision makers by nowadays.

And the fragmented nature of the industry makes the problem worse not better.

And if there were decent sites easy for general public / occasional travellers to look up times and fares without having to engage in a mock purchase process it would mean that the national express comparison outlined here was not worth debating anyway.

The system has failed ot move on - back in the pre on line age you could not buy a ticket with a railcard without a validity check on it (the eyes of the ticket clerk at the station or travel centre / travel agent) - the technological equivalent of those eyes have not been built into the modern ticket purchasing process because the industry has not seen fit to bother and have passed the responsibility back to the passenger when they could easily have helped the passenger get it right in a away that might have positively enhanced their experience of travelling by train.

 

[spag23]

You could try looking at the railcard - very one I have ever seen has the expiry date prominently printed on the front.

The above is exactly what some of us are suggesting the booking webpages should do; ie ask customers to look at their railcard.
Mine, and my wife's, hardly ever leave a compartment of our wallet/purse. As with all our other bank cards, driving licences etc, we have no idea off the top our head what their expiry dates are.
We have all become accustomed to these issuers sending a reminder near the expiry date, or any expired card being rejected at the beginning of an attempted transaction.
Railcards are unique in that the issuer knows the expiry date and all the customer's details, but chooses to neither send a renewal reminder nor carry out a simple validity check.
Instead they prefer to penalise anyone who'd not noticed their card had expired.
Any other organisation adopting this policy would lose many of their customers. But the TOCs have a captive market to exploit.