Brexit matters

[Gostav]

So it turns out foreign investment is rushing into the UK post-Brexit, but in the form of private equity firms from the US who will likely asset strip the likes of Morrisons:

Morrisons: US firm wins auction to take over supermarket chain

Clayton, Dubilier & Rice is highest bidder in the battle for the UK's fourth-largest supermarket group.

www.bbc.co.uk

The type of behaviour here really should be illegal IMO.

You may not have noticed that Chinese are acquiring the UK entertainment industry in past years, including many video game studios in this country.

 

[birchesgreen]

I’m hearing (or, more accurately, reading) a lot in the online world about how people need to stop ‘banging on’ about Brexit and just ‘move on’

They only want to "move on" because its becoming a colossal failure. If things were all rosy they wouldn't shut up about brexit brexit brexit for a second!

 

[JonasB]

I’m hearing (or, more accurately, reading) a lot in the online world about how people need to stop ‘banging on’ about Brexit and just ‘move on’

I can't help wondering how Farage and others would have reacted if someone had told them to stop banging on about EU and just move on.

 

[ainsworth74]

I can't help wondering how Farage and others would have reacted if someone had told them to stop banging on about EU and just move on.

You mean Mr Nigel "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way" Farage? I'm sure he'd have taken with good grace...

Nigel Farage: Narrow Remain win may lead to second referendum

There could be unstoppable demand for a second EU referendum if Remain wins by only a narrow margin on 23 June, says UKIP leader Nigel Farage.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[johncrossley]

The Netherlands is accepting the UK’s vaccine proof and hence passengers who are vaccinated are de facto exempt. I legally entered the Netherlands yesterday at Schiphol airport for three hours and was admitted. They accepted the QR code although the rules strictly suggest paper confirmation only is acceptable (I had this too).

They still want visitors from the UK to have a test, even if they are vaccinated. All vaccinated visitors from the EU can visit the Netherlands without a test, regardless of case levels.

 

[AlterEgo]

They still want visitors from the UK to have a test, even if they are vaccinated. All vaccinated visitors from the EU can visit the Netherlands without a test, regardless of case levels.

I don’t understand what your point is. This policy also applies to people who arrive from an epidemiologically very high-risk area within the EU and/or Schengen, too.

 

[johncrossley]

I don’t understand what your point is. This policy also applies to people who arrive from an epidemiologically very high-risk area within the EU and/or Schengen, too.

COVID-19 and visiting the Netherlands

The Government of the Netherlands has decided to lift all travel restrictions related to coronavirus.

www.government.nl

Travellers within the EU who can show proof of vaccination or proof of recovery (for example a Digital COVID Certificate) don't need to show a negative NAAT or antigen test result.

That rule is for high risk areas within the EU/Schengen. Outside the EU/Schengen, only low risk countries can skip the test.

 

[AlterEgo]

COVID-19 and visiting the Netherlands

The Government of the Netherlands has decided to lift all travel restrictions related to coronavirus.

www.government.nl

Travellers within the EU who can show proof of vaccination or proof of recovery (for example a Digital COVID Certificate) don't need to show a negative NAAT or antigen test result.

That rule is for high risk areas within the EU/Schengen. Outside the EU/Schengen, only low risk countries can skip the test.

There are very high risk areas within the EU that are not covered there, and which the law mandates must take a test.

What is on a government website and what the law is, and what the application of the law is, are three fundamentally different things as anyone who has had the misfortune to repeatedly navigate the myriad travel requirements will know. I was permitted entry to the Netherlands for half a day from Switzerland on a UK passport despite clearly stating to the border police (and having the stamps to prove it), that I had been in the UK just a few days prior. I specifically asked whether there was a quarantine requirement that applied to me and whether I could leave the airport. Yes I could!

 

[johncrossley]

There are very high risk areas within the EU that are not covered there

Can you give an example of such an area within the EU? There are 28 EU/Schengen countries in the "high risk" category and 2 in the "safe" category. That accounts for all EU/Schengen countries.

 

[AlterEgo]

Can you give an example of such an area within the EU? There are 28 EU/Schengen countries in the "high risk" category and 2 in the "safe" category. That accounts for all EU/Schengen countries.

Yes. Guadeloupe is one, as listed on the website. You must quarantine on arrival in the Netherlands from this part of the European Union if you are not vaccinated. If you are vaccinated you must still provide a test.

And I should know! I booked an air fare from Point-a-Pitre to Humberside (!) via Paris and Amsterdam only for a Dutch friend to remind me of the requirement as I would be staying overnight in Amsterdam on the itinerary…

 

[johncrossley]

Yes. Guadeloupe is one, as listed on the website. You must quarantine on arrival in the Netherlands from this part of the European Union if you are not vaccinated. If you are vaccinated you must still provide a test.

And I should know! I booked an air fare from Point-a-Pitre to Humberside (!) via Paris and Amsterdam only for a Dutch friend to remind me of the requirement as I would be staying overnight in Amsterdam on the itinerary…

OK, I see what you did there.

Do you seriously think the Netherlands would class the UK as very high risk and require a test if the UK was still in the EU?

 

[AlterEgo]

OK, I see what you did there.

Do you seriously think the Netherlands would class the UK as very high risk and require a test if the UK was still in the EU?

Yes, especially as we were always outside the Schengen Area with arrivals easy to police. The UK has been a pseudo-pariah state for much of 2021 because of the early Delta variant concerns and we’ve had “special” treatment from dozens of countries, EU or not. In addition, the UK has a uniquely onerous testing regime for arrivals which has upset some countries.

It’s entirely up to the Dutch government whether they wish to let us in or not, because that’s how sovereignty works whether you’re in the EU or not.

 

[johncrossley]

Some entry restrictions are based on nationality, rather than residence. For example, Luxembourg:

Visiting Luxembourg

Nationals of an EU country or one of the Schengen Area associated countries are free to enter the European Union, irrespective of the purpose of their stay and not only to return to their home. These people do not need to produce a negative Test.

covid19.public.lu

Citizens of the European Union and of the countries associated with the Schengen area, as well as citizens of San Marino, Andorra, Monaco and the Vatican/Saint See, are free to enter the territory of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, regardless of the purpose of the stay and not only to return to their homes.

Third-country nationals may no longer enter the territory of the Grand Duchy until 31 December 2021 (inclusive), except in one of the following cases:

So in these cases there can be no doubt that British citizens have to suffer more travel restrictions because of Brexit.

 

[AlterEgo]

Some entry restrictions are based on nationality, rather than residence. For example, Luxembourg:

Visiting Luxembourg

Nationals of an EU country or one of the Schengen Area associated countries are free to enter the European Union, irrespective of the purpose of their stay and not only to return to their home. These people do not need to produce a negative Test.

covid19.public.lu

So in these cases there can be no doubt that British citizens have to suffer more travel restrictions because of Brexit.

Well that is devastating news about Luxembourg isn’t it just. Remind me to bring my Irish passport if I ever bother visiting, because it gives me magical powers with their very sensible border policy!

 

[johncrossley]

Well that is devastating news about Luxembourg isn’t it just. Remind me to bring my Irish passport if I ever bother visiting, because it gives me magical powers with their very sensible border policy!

Well, that explains a lot. No wonder you can be so cavalier about the effects of Brexit.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well, that explains a lot. No wonder you can be so cavalier about the effects of Brexit.

Not in the slightest. My Irish passport is a consequence of accident of birth. I travel on my British passport almost exclusively (the Irish one is a “diplomatic” passport for sketchy places). I was born here and live here with my family. I have no wish to avail of free movement, or to live elsewhere, or in Ireland, Europe or whatever.

I voted Remain and still would do so today…because I know the effect on Ireland, where I have family.

Continuous moaning about, well, now we’ve got you down to “can’t holiday in ah ah ah um …Luxembourg” will never sell the argument to anyone. We’ve seen how granular you have to make the argument to win an Internet Point, which was entirely my strategy from the outset.

I’ve been to nine European countries in the last month, all on the British passport, absolutely no bother with any of them except Portugal which requires a PCR test. It’s very easy to travel about. My job is literally travel, I’ve no interest in it becoming more difficult.

I do wonder, however, if we were in the EU and had open borders, how people would react to hardcore losing Brexiteers moaning that “ahhh there’s a new doubly dangerous variant coming in from Greece, we should shut the borders to mainland Europe!” And winning Remainers saying “aha sorry, we are in the EU, free movement for everyone!”. And worse - imagine we told Greeks they couldn’t come but allowed the thousands of bronzed middle class Brits with holiday homes, and members of Commonwealth states perhaps, to arrive in England with no preconditions simply by dint of their passport.

In any case I am pleased to know that the *checks notes* Grand Duchy of Luxembourg believes I am a magical epidemiological property thanks to my father being born in Derry. Yes, you have really sold the wisdom of EU governance to everyone.

 

[najaB]

I have no wish to avail of free movement, or to live elsewhere, or in Ireland, Europe or whatever.

So it's no skin off your nose that others have lost those rights.

 

[johncrossley]

We’ve seen how granular you have to make the argument to win an Internet Point, which was entirely my strategy from the outset.

I could say the same about your Guadeloupe trick. Sweden is also off limits, although you can travel via a neighbouring country.

 

[AlterEgo]

I could say the same about your Guadeloupe trick. Sweden is also off limits, although you can travel via a neighbouring country.

Well quite, it’s all rather silly isn’t it? Almost like they’re not especially wise or bright.

So it's no skin off your nose that others have lost those rights.

Sorry but is my point valid or not?

For the vast majority of people who voted against Remain (you and I!), it was no skin off their nose either.

This is a fundamental point that also gets missed. They don’t care and you can’t make them care because the rights that were given up they broadly weren’t much interested in.

 

[johncrossley]

As predicted, the visas until Christmas Eve scheme has been extended:

Emergency visa scheme extended in major U-turn by Boris Johnson

Threat of Christmas being ruined by driver shortages forces ministers to expand range and duration of visas

www.theguardian.com

I don't think anyone is surprised by that one, nor should anybody be surprised when March turn into September.

Looks like hardly anyone is interested anyway. Why would someone come to work in the UK with a limited time visa when they can live as long as they like in an EU country?

Fuel stocks in South and London behind rest of UK

Latest data suggest 86% of petrol stations nationally have both types of fuel.

www.bbc.co.uk

Only 127 fuel drivers from overseas have applied for temporary visas aimed at tackling shortages, the prime minister has said.

 

[najaB]

This is a fundamental point that also gets missed. They don’t care and you can’t make them care because the rights that were given up they broadly weren’t much interested in.

Yet strangely many of them complained that they lost the ability to use their holiday homes in the south of France or Spain.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yet strangely many of them complained that they lost the ability to use their holiday homes in the south of France or Spain.

Exactly! Boo hoo to them. A non issue. Why should anyone care about that? It’s almost like if you want to make a political argument you need to focus on the things that really matter.

Still, it’s always reassuring to have “well what’s it to you?” wheeled out from time to time, as if my nationality is a disqualifier from the discussion.

I really do beg people who care about Britain’s place in Europe to try hard not to draw too much attention to the EU’s covid travel rules, especially as, when looking at Remain as a political alliance, it skews generally to covid hawkishness. Difficult truths need to be navigated and one is that the EU has consistently placed its political ideology above the safety of the people who live in it with, as we’ve seen, bonkers travel rules.

 

[class ep-09]

Difficult truths need to be navigated and one is that the UK has consistently placed its political ideology above the safety of the people who live in it with, as we’ve seen, bonkers travel rules.

Fixed that for you .

 

[AlterEgo]

Fixed that for you .

Explain how that sentence makes sense given the UK has had, and continues to have, the strictest travel and testing/mandatory quarantine regime, anywhere in the Western world other than Australia or New Zealand. It's Europe that has had very free travel rules especially within the Schengen area.

 

[bspahh]

Explain how that sentence makes sense given the UK has had, and continues to have, the strictest travel and testing/mandatory quarantine regime, anywhere in the Western world other than Australia or New Zealand. It's Europe that has had very free travel rules especially within the Schengen area.

I don't remember the UK having much of a testing/quarantine regime for travellers from India, when they had a new infectious variant. Funily enough just about the time when Boris was trying to sign a trade deal.

 

[class ep-09]

Explain how that sentence makes sense given the UK has had, and continues to have, the strictest travel and testing/mandatory quarantine regime, anywhere in the Western world other than Australia or New Zealand. It's Europe that has had very free travel rules especially within the Schengen area.

It is not about current rules / political decisions / ideology - it is about the previous rules / decisions / ideology, that made UK one of the worst COVID affected countries on Earth - both in terms of health and economy.

For example : BoJo allowing people from Indie , when Delta variant was spreading rapidly throughout the Subcontinent, just to appease Indie's leader . That was political decision, nothing more nothing less .

Example of ideology ?
Here it is :
“Let the corpses pile high in their thousands “ - should I comment on that ?

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't remember the UK having much of a testing/quarantine regime travellers from India, when they had a new infectious variant. Funily enough just about the time when Boris was trying to sign a trade deal.

Oh right, was the Schengen Area closed to Indians then? Was the EU? (Clue: no. It was still open for them way into August)

Do any of you pay very much attention to the travel requirements of other states, or do you just assume the EU will be better and more responsible than the UK by default?

It is not about current rules / political decisions / ideology - it is about the previous rules / decisions / ideology, that made UK one of the worst COVID affected countries on Earth - both in terms of health and economy.

For example : BoJo allowing people from Indie , when Delta variant was spreading rapidly throughout the Subcontinent, just to appease Indie's leader . That was political decision, nothing more nothing less .

Example of ideology ?
Here it is :
“Let the corpses pile high in their thousands “ - should I comment on that ?

Sorry, don't see what that's got to do with the concept of free movement I am taking on; my thoughts about our own dire COVID response are elsewhere on this forum and we would tend to agree.

 

[najaB]

Explain how that sentence makes sense given the UK has had, and continues to have, the strictest travel and testing/mandatory quarantine regime, anywhere in the Western world other than Australia or New Zealand.

Oh right, was the Schengen Area closed to Indians then? Was the EU? (Clue: no. It was still open for them way into August)

On a point of order, that puts the UK on par with the EU, not stricter.

And I think you'll find that Canada's restrictions have been stricter than the UK's, given that for a large part of the pandemic even Canadians weren't being let into the country.

 

[AlterEgo]

On a point of order, that puts the UK on par with the EU, not stricter.

It does not. The EU has allowed Schengen states to set their own rules, which have often not married with one another. This has created significant avenues of legal but morally dubious lines of entry to European states for the nationals of many countries.

And I think you'll find that Canada's restrictions have been stricter than the UK's, given that for a large part of the pandemic even Canadians weren't being let into the country.

Didn't know that and it's not substantiated by anything I can find online. There was mandatory quarantine in many cases, but certainly not a ban on Canadians arriving that I can find.

 

[najaB]

There was mandatory quarantine in many cases, but certainly not a ban on Canadians arriving that I can find.

There was. I know a few Canadians who were stuck outside the country. Arrivals were only allowed in extremely limited circumstances.