Bridge problem cardiff Central 20/4/25 route blocked Newport Cardiff

[John R]

Or even a service from Central to Pontypridd, and then pick up the planned diagram.

As an aside, when I first became interested in railways the line from
Aber (Junction, as was) to Taffs Well was still available. A fairly short line, imagine the additional flexibility if that was still open.

 

[The exile]

I guess for the same reason that the GWR Cardiff to Portsmouth services are terminating at Bristol instead of Newport. It can be chaotic at Newport at the best of times, so I'm guessing it can't cope with a significant increase in terminating services

If there were a properly integrated railway, then the North & West lines trains could be diverted to Bristol (ideally reversing at Newport) thus covering the south end of the line properly and substituting for the cancelled Pompey trains.

 

[AdamWW]

The last time the bridge between Queen St and Central was closed for an extended period was due to a landslip and it was shut for 2 weeks, back in 2012.

According to this article, back then Arriva managed to turnaround Rhymney & Coryton trains at Queen St.

That seems to refer to just post-match evening services. I'd be most curious as to how they managed that, if they did.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Does anyone know any more about the actual damage to the bridge ?.

I am wondering if it is similar to the landslip that happened in 2012 albeit with the actual steel work moved this time ?.
Which might make it a more involved repair.

The last time the bridge between Queen St and Central was closed for an extended period was due to a landslip and it was shut for 2 weeks, back in 2012.

According to this article, back then Arriva managed to turnaround Rhymney & Coryton trains at Queen St.

Cardiff rail services disruption after wall collapse

A rail line into Cardiff will be closed for up to 14 days following the collapse of a wall which has led to disruption for south Wales services.

www.bbc.co.uk

Conjecture but this time the presence of 25KV OHLE might make for it being a bit more "interesting".

 

[didcot_watcher]

Does anyone know any more about the actual damage to the bridge ?.

I am wondering if it is similar to the landslip that happened in 2012 albeit with the actual steel work moved this time ?.
Which might make it a more involved repair.

Conjecture but this time the presence of 25KV OHLE might make for it being a bit more "interesting".

I wonder if the 25Kv clearance monitor activated?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I wonder if the 25Kv clearance monitor activated?

Good point. Would explain the problem being referred to as a moved girder rather than a bridge bash.
I wonder if it is the 25KV infrastructure that has been bashed. That would make it an easier fix taking days not weeks.

Two feet is a long way for a bit of bridge to move after all.

The bridge carrying the Valley lines over the main was found to have shifted.

From someone I know within the railway, they had been informed it had moved a couple of feet which, if that's the case, I'd going to cause quite a serious issue over the coming days.

Relief lines have been closed

Hmm, bit of a tenuous guess on my part.

 

[Jez]

Someone on X has asked the same question as I asked here last night - why some services are being terminated in Shrewsbury many miles away from the issue at Cardiff. As usual they gave an answer not related to the question asked and told them tickets are valid with Crosscountry. When asked further the online person at TFW said they not sure but think its to do with too many terminating trains in Newport. But that still doesnt explain why they couldnt go to Cwmbran, Abergavenny or even Hereford.

Obviously it isnt the person answering the messages fault. But it just shows the complete lack of communication. No wonder passengers get fed up!

 

[30907]

Why do the Holyheads need to be cancelled at Shrewsbury?

There may be a crew diagram issue?
But an hourly service south of Shrewsbury isn't unreasonable, and a random check suggests that the Manchester stoppers are calling additionally at Pontypool Rd.

 

[Jez]

There may be a crew diagram issue?
But an hourly service south of Shrewsbury isn't unreasonable, and a random check suggests that the Manchester stoppers are calling additionally at Pontypool Rd.

True. But why cant TFW just tell us the exact reason for it. We would know then!

 

[Peter Sarf]

True. But why cant TFW just tell us the exact reason for it. We would know then!

Probably an explanation that is "too detailed" for the average punter to understand ?.
Us railway staff/enthusiasts lap up the detail.

TALKING OF DETAIL
Surely someone by now has a picture of the problem or a good insight......

 

[vicbury]

If there were a properly integrated railway, then the North & West lines trains could be diverted to Bristol (ideally reversing at Newport) thus covering the south end of the line properly and substituting for the cancelled Pompey trains.

Or the service from Bristol could at the very least terminate at Severn Tunnel Junction, with all CrossCountry services additionally stopping there for connections. It is quite ironic that this issue at Cardiff has made it exceedingly hard for me to get to Bristol (from Lydney) but the vast majority of services to Cardiff from here are running!

 

[Benjwri]

Or the service from Bristol could at the very least terminate at Severn Tunnel Junction, with all CrossCountry services additionally stopping there for connections. It is quite ironic that this issue at Cardiff has made it exceedingly hard for me to get to Bristol (from Lydney) but the vast majority of services to Cardiff from here are running!

Where do trains go after terminating there? It would block the line for any through services.

There are still options to go via Newport to Bristol (An hourly service until midnight), and I would expect station staff or GWR on X might authorise you to travel via Gloucester instead, if your ticket doesn't already allow it, if you ask.

 

[AdamWW]

Probably an explanation that is "too detailed" for the average punter to understand ?.
Us railway staff/enthusiasts lap up the detail.

TALKING OF DETAIL
Surely someone by now has a picture of the problem or a good insight......

And talking of communications, this, from TfW on Twitter:

Supporters attending today's Cardiff City match should be aware that due to on-going repairs to a bridge near Cardiff Queen Street, services are running but may be amended.

seems a rather optimistic way of saying that some routes are closed completely and some have a significantly reduced service.

 

[Jez]

Probably an explanation that is "too detailed" for the average punter to understand ?.
Us railway staff/enthusiasts lap up the detail.

Yes your right we just like to know the detailed explanation behind everything whilst the average customer just accepts the train is cancelled and that's that!

 

[WAB]

Now I know it's easy to criticise from the sidelines, but I really do find it very hard to understand the necessity to have a title that says it's just Coryton affected, lower down say it's Caerphilly too, then not mention disruption through Pontypridd at all, but just hint at it by mentioning bus ticket acceptance on those routes.

It was much the same during the bad weather over the winter. I’m not sure whoever is posting these messages has actually looked at how they appear for the public.

I’m fairly surprised at the questions around the Rhymney line not being open, when there’s a well publicised closure until mid-May for electrification between Caerphilly and Rhymney…

This should reduce the number of people impacted directly I guess.

People will be getting the pre planned rail replacement buses between Rhymney and Caerphilly, expecting a train onwards to Cardiff. Instead, six trains per hour will be reduced to one bus per hour. I can understand why that’d be a problem today, let alone during the working week.

 

[Peter Sarf]

And talking of communications, this, from TfW on Twitter:

seems a rather optimistic way of saying that some routes are closed completely and some have a significantly reduced service.

Crickey. They really are in a parallel universe I fear.

 

[AdamWW]

Yes your right we just like to know the detailed explanation behind everything whilst the average customer just accepts the train is cancelled and that's that!

That's not been my general experience of people for whom trains are just transport. They won't want as much detail, but they'd still like to know what's happened.

And talking of communications, this, from TfW on Twitter:

seems a rather optimistic way of saying that some routes are closed completely and some have a significantly reduced service.

Crickey. They really are in a parallel universe I fear.

Quite.

Like the one in which the wires to Caerphilly went live in February when they were supposed to despite the planned bridge closures not happening, and when they did happen in April it was just due to some testing. Despite the placards all over the place warning of the imminent energisation of the wires...

It was much the same during the bad weather over the winter. I’m not sure whoever is posting these messages has actually looked at how they appear for the public.

And indeed just about any time there's disruption.
I suspect that the Journeycheck messages are auto-generated from some kind of input rather than just being written out by hand.
Unfortunately this often results in complete nonsense (e.g. saying that a line is blocked and that may cause delays and cancellations, or that more trains than usual need repairs between X and Y).
As you say, it doesn't look as if anyone actually looks at what's being output.

 

[Bow Fell]

And indeed just about any time there's disruption.
I suspect that the Journeycheck messages are auto-generated from some kind of input rather than just being written out by hand.
Unfortunately this often results in complete nonsense (e.g. saying that a line is blocked and that may cause delays and cancellations, or that more trains than usual need repairs between X and Y).
As you say, it doesn't look as if anyone actually looks at what's being output.

They’re not auto-generated, they are input from a member of staff using Tyrell, the problem is the choice of wording is pre-defined.

The first will be the reason, so you select that from hundreds of reasons

Second you choose the location and time expected until the disruption ends and what lines are affected.

What is the impact? You can select from cancelled/delayed/revised/terminate at/start at etc.

Then there is ticket acceptance info and rail replacement info which you can freeform in the Customer Advice or Additional Info box, sometimes I prefer freeform here as it makes more sense.

Unfortunately, sometimes it doesn’t read great and that’s a limitation of the system.

To answer, why Holyheads services are starting/terminating at Shrewsbury, Network Rail will have told TfW you need to thin the service out and looking at agreed contingency plans, this is the result.

 

[didcot_watcher]

Issues now throught to the end of service on Tuesday 22nd.

 

[AdamWW]

They’re not auto-generated, they are input from a member of staff

That's exactly what I meant - someone is providing input which may actually make sense, but the system is then generating nonsense with it.

They’re not auto-generated, they are input from a member of staff using Tyrell, the problem is the choice of wording is pre-defined.

The first will be the reason, so you select that from hundreds of reasons

Second you choose the location and time expected until the disruption ends and what lines are affected.

What is the impact? You can select from cancelled/delayed/revised/terminate at/start at etc.

Then there is ticket acceptance info and rail replacement info which you can freeform in the Customer Advice or Additional Info box, sometimes I prefer freeform here as it makes more sense.

Unfortunately, sometimes it doesn’t read great and that’s a limitation of the system.

Thanks for the explanation.

But in my view this is not an excuse for TfW having such a rubbish system, though it might be for the individuals forced to use it.

And if there was really no alternative to listing all the disruption under "Cancellations to services between Cardiff Central and Coryton" then it really, really needs to go.

It's like the TfW Live Route Status page.

I have no idea how they have come up with something that can and often does say "good service" when the on-line departure boards are a rash of cancellations. I'm pretty sure I could do better with access to a suitable API.
But given that they can't, why is the page still there? Misleading information is worse than no information.

 

[Bow Fell]

Thanks for the explanation.

But in my view this is not an excuse for TfW having such a rubbish system, though it might be for the individuals forced to use it.

And if there was really no alternative to listing all the disruption under "Cancellations to services between Cardiff Central and Coryton" then it really, really needs to go.

It's like the TfW Live Route Status page.

I have no idea how they have come up with something that can and often does say "good service" when the on-line departure boards are a rash of cancellations. I'm pretty sure I could do better with access to a suitable API.
But given that they can't, why is the page still there? Misleading information is worse than no information.

It’s a universal system that pretty much every TOC uses because of how it feeds JourneyCheck and the CIS through Darwin. It isn’t perfect, however I find it quick and easy to use even though it doesn’t read back so well at times. But they are the tools that we are all given. I’ve worked with it for almost 10 years and the interface and what you can do has never really changed that much.

Not making excuses but Control Staff pretty much make do with what we’re given. Customer Information through such systems is a huge passion of mine, and I think there are times we can do better but we are limited by the equipment we have.

Unfortunately, again because of the algorithm, one or two cancellations will show “good service” if you think about it one or two cancellations on a line that has a very frequent service is “good” where as if it was an hourly or two hourly that threshold is different. Once CSL2 is activated all lines should show “Red” and “Major Disruption”

 

[andypops]

People will be getting the pre planned rail replacement buses between Rhymney and Caerphilly, expecting a train onwards to Cardiff. Instead, six trains per hour will be reduced to one bus per hour. I can understand why that’d be a problem today, let alone during the working week.

I didn’t say there wasn’t a problem? You may need to give your head a wobble.

I stand by my statement that there are likely to be fewer people travelling from Rhymney - Caerphilly due to the pre-planned engineering work.

 

[AdamWW]

It’s a universal system that pretty much every TOC uses because of how it feeds JourneyCheck and the CIS through Darwin. It isn’t perfect, however I find it quick and easy to use even though it doesn’t read back so well at times. But they are the tools that we are all given. I’ve worked with it for almost 10 years and the interface and what you can do has never really changed that much.

I'm not blaming those who input the data, and it's great that it's easy to use for those entering the information.

But, from my point of view as someone using the information, it just doesn't work.

It's not a question of not reading back well. At least in the case of TfW, the information is often incomplete, misleading and just downright nonsense.

As an example, if a line is blocked then there aren't going to be trains until it opens, so don't tell me there may be cancellations or delays.

Unfortunately, again because of the algorithm, one or two cancellations will show “good service” if you think about it one or two cancellations on a line that has a very frequent service is “good” where as if it was an hourly or two hourly that threshold is different. Once CSL2 is activated all lines should show “Red” and “Major Disruption”

Believe me, it will show "good service" when there is far more than the odd train cancelled. Services through Queen Street can have fallen apart completely yet the screen is still happily showing "Good service" on all routes.

Although in any case I would assume "Good service" meant the full timetable running with minor delays at most.

As I said above it's easy to just sit on the sidelines carping. But over and over and over again TfW fail to give accurate and useful information when there's disruption and I do find it hard to believe that they couldn't do better.

On another note, Journeycheck seems to be suggesting a half hourly service tomorrow from Queen Street to Coryton but not Caerphilly. But nothing going the other way!

 

[WAB]

Thanks for the explanation.

But in my view this is not an excuse for TfW having such a rubbish system, though it might be for the individuals forced to use it.

And if there was really no alternative to listing all the disruption under "Cancellations to services between Cardiff Central and Coryton" then it really, really needs to go.

It's like the TfW Live Route Status page.

I have no idea how they have come up with something that can and often does say "good service" when the on-line departure boards are a rash of cancellations. I'm pretty sure I could do better with access to a suitable API.
But given that they can't, why is the page still there? Misleading information is worse than no information.

It should have been done route by route, which has now been done taking a look at Journey Check.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Now confirmed to be impacting tomorrow too. Kinda wish they'd just say it'll be a few days rather than just doing it day by day. If it's sorted before then great it's a bonus but at least set expectations a bit better. Maybe that's too harsh and they did genuinely think it would be sorted by the end of today but given where it is and the history there, my initial reaction was immediately that'll take them longer than what they are saying.

 

[didcot_watcher]

Now confirmed to be impacting tomorrow too. Kinda wish they'd just say it'll be a few days rather than just doing it day by day. If it's sorted before then great it's a bonus but at least set expectations a bit better. Maybe that's too harsh and they did genuinely think it would be sorted by the end of today but given where it is and the history there, my initial reaction was immediately that'll take them longer than what they are saying.

There is some interesting digging in this picture https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c70zl6d5881o

 

[AdamWW]

Now confirmed to be impacting tomorrow too. Kinda wish they'd just say it'll be a few days rather than just doing it day by day. If it's sorted before then great it's a bonus but at least set expectations a bit better. Maybe that's too harsh and they did genuinely think it would be sorted by the end of today but given where it is and the history there, my initial reaction was immediately that'll take them longer than what they are saying.

They did have a brief fit of honesty at one point and say that it was unclear when it would be resolved.

I presume they were told that it would continue until the end of the day and had no more information than that.

And strictly speaking saying until the end of the day doesn't actually mean it won't continue afterwards, but I tihnk most people (certainly me) would read "disruption is expected...until the end of Tuesday 22nd April" as saying that the expect to be back to normal the day after. But of course I know not to believe it.

It's frustrating when you get this sort of thing and I think it would be useful for them to use phrases like "at least until the end of the day" and say that there's currently no timeframe for normal services to resume.

It's just part of the fact that TfW is not good at providing information.

Added:

In fact Journeycheck for the Valley Lines is saying: "We are unclear as to when the incident will be resolved. Train services will be disrupted until the end of day Tuesday 22nd April at the earliest ."
Which is honest and helpful.
But the banner at the top of the page is implying everything will be back to normal tomorrow.

Meanwhile, looking at Traksy and Realtimetrains they appear to be running a shuttle between Coryton and the Bay today. They just haven't got round to telling people.

On Journeycheck there are now no line alerts for the Coryton Line or services to the Bay.
Additional services are shown from Coryton to Queen Street (and no further) but not the other way.

I appreciate that there must be a large amount of management effort in dealing with disruption like this.
And maybe I'm asking too much but having gone to the effort of setting up this temporary service is it really not possible to tell people about it?
Not everyone is able and willing to look at third party sources and piece together the full picture.

There also seem to be problems with points at Pontypridd and ill signallers south of Cardiff!

 

[ValleyLines142]

Further hindered by signalling staff going sick so Vale of Glamorgan/Maesteg has only just opened this morning and also multiple track circuit failures between Newport and STJ.

 

[Parallel]

The services allowed through to Cardiff from Newport during this seemed rather questionable yesterday.

TfW weren’t running the ex-Holyheads or the ex-Ebbw Vale services to Cardiff. Ex-Manchester and ex-Cheltenham services were still running.

GWR weren’t running the ex-Pompeys, ex-Penzance/Tauntons and the ex-Paddington (Cardiff terminators). Ex-Paddington services continuing beyond Cardiff were running.

XC were running everything through.

Bristol Temple Meads to/from Cardiff is a heavy flow, so to not offer any direct services and instead force a change at Newport onto already full (mainly 2-carriage) Turbostars was strange. Surely better to let GWR’s ex-Penzances through as most were formed of 5 carriage IETs and had more capacity, and terminate the XC at Newport?

 

[Jez]

The services allowed through to Cardiff from Newport during this seemed rather questionable yesterday.

TfW weren’t running the ex-Holyheads or the ex-Ebbw Vale services to Cardiff. Ex-Manchester and ex-Cheltenham services were still running.

GWR weren’t running the ex-Pompeys, ex-Penzance/Tauntons and the ex-Paddington (Cardiff terminators). Ex-Paddington services continuing beyond Cardiff were running.

XC were running everything through.

Bristol Temple Meads to/from Cardiff is a heavy flow, so to not offer any direct services and instead force a change at Newport onto already full (mainly 2-carriage) Turbostars was strange. Surely better to let GWR’s ex-Penzances through as most were formed of 5 carriage IETs and had more capacity, and terminate the XC at Newport?

I agree. And given the XC is quite unreliable at times anyway it wouldn't exactly be unusual for it to be turned at Newport.