The idea that Americans don't ride trains is only because the rail system has been systematically torn up and eroded from the post-war era to the point where car dependency is the norm for between local cities, or flying between cities of long distances. I hope that the new Brightline opening will be the beginning of new proper passenger rail routes opening between cities that are often cited as "too far to drive, too short to fly", a business model that Brightline itself adopted when creating the route. That said, it'll probably take Brightline West to prove that such a business model can work since it is proper high speed rail that can half the LA-Vegas trips, whereas here the line is mostly the same time as driving, only it comes with the luxury of being able to relax on the journey and not risk being caught up in traffic.
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BRIGHTLINE Miami to Orlando
- Thread starter Ploughman
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Brightline West is the big trial. It's one thing to upgrade an existing freight line and build about 40 miles of new 125mph track, it's another thing entirely to build over 200+ miles of new 180mph track.
Quite so, but while it's success may well be the start of increased rail investment in the US, I do hope any setbacks or even cancellations won't be the end of it. The US needs a network of reliable passenger trains alongside it's vast freight network. For what it's worth, Los Angeles to Las Vegas was a good start since tourists will want to visit both cities, and having a fast rail connection between both can easily turn it into a two-city trip.
For airport to Hotels, it very much is designed for luggage, as I’ve done it en famille. No reason it couldn’t be station to hotels on the back of the same network. However, the numbers involved would be rather smaller, unless the station happened to be right on the bus routes from the airport.
Which of course the current station is!
Having just checked - it now isn’t - at least for Disney.
Disney pulled out of their ‘Magical Express’ service this year. You now either get a cab or use Mears Connect coaches (which does indeed serve terminal C where the station is)
Or rent a car at the Airport...
well yes,that is the preferred option for almost everyone.
A lot of people will avoid driving in the States if they can. If the intention is to do a Disney Resort holiday then they may well not need to.
It shouldn't be necessary - Disneyworld is rather spread out but, at least when I was last there which was admittedly some time ago, it had a decent transport system to get people between the hotels and the parks themselves.
jon81uk
Member
Yes Mears run the buses from the airport (what used to be Magical Express) which is why I don't think there is much advantage between getting off the train at the airport and switching to a bus that is already doing airport to hotel runs compared to staying on the train one or two more stops and switching to the bus. For those who are getting the bus from the airport if it was then to stop to pick up again it would push more people to taxi or smaller shuttles with fewer stops. After a long flight or long train journey I just want to get to the hotel quickly and get into the theme parks.
Will they? It's very easy, even Americans can do it
ac6000cw
Established Member
The problem is that Brightline West is proposed to be initially from Victor Valley (just north of Victorville) to Las Vegas. That's the part across the largely empty desert which is a relatively easy (if boring) drive on I-15 - Google maps suggests about 2h10m to 3h for the 170 miles. By the time you've driven to Victor Valley from LA (on very congested freeways) you've done the worst and slowest part of the (driving) trip anyway. Without at least the extension from Victor Valley down Cajon Pass to Rancho Cucamonga Metrolink station (west of San Bernardino) I think it's a much less attractive proposition.
Mears are the bus operator who previously ran the Disney-badged service, under contract, so little has changed. They are the biggest coach operator around, and also now have a tie-up with Brightline at the Orlando station to provide onward, what the USA calls "shuttles", so will doubtless look for co-ordination opportunities.
Just for info, the Brightline station "at Orlando airport terminal" is not at the main terminal in the middle of the airport, but at a subsidiary Terminal C" on the south side, which I believe is only used by a handful of overseas airlines as an overspill, and by no USA ones at all. This seems surprising, because their main line westwards across the Florida swamps turns south at the airport, and passes through the middle of it, right next to the main terminal, but then continuing for a good distance to this remote station and terminal. Not really apparent how this arrangement happened. The fact it is at this remote location is notably concealed or glossed over in the publicity material.
Just for info, the Brightline station "at Orlando airport terminal" is not at the main terminal in the middle of the airport, but at a subsidiary Terminal C" on the south side, which I believe is only used by a handful of overseas airlines as an overspill, and by no USA ones at all. This seems surprising, because their main line westwards across the Florida swamps turns south at the airport, and passes through the middle of it, right next to the main terminal, but then continuing for a good distance to this remote station and terminal. Not really apparent how this arrangement happened. The fact it is at this remote location is notably concealed or glossed over in the publicity material.
You can do it, but it's an extra cost and hassle that is avoided if possible. I reckon most people who hire a car when they're doing a resort holiday will be out of necessity rather than desire. It would be a dream to be picked up at the airport and dropped to the resort.
As noted above, the parks charge something like $60 a day for parking.
jon81uk
Member
Most people at a resort holiday do indeed get picked up at the airport and dropped at the resort. Usually by shuttle bus (Disney used to include this in the hotel price), but sometimes by limo, taxi or Uber/Lyft/FreeNow.
I didn't quite know that. I think it's a great shame though because Los Angeles is one of the biggest most populated cities in the United States, and in many other developed countries you would expect it to have good rail transport for both local and long distance connections. Granted I think San Francisco would be the first logical choice for a proper rail connection to LA rather than Las Vegas, but there is still a potential market if done correctly.
ac6000cw
Established Member
I agree - it avoids the extra hassle and cost of airport car rental (which at Orlando probably involves a shuttle bus from Arrivals to the car rental lot anyway - it did the only time I've used Orlando airport, we flew to Sanford next time...).
And as Taunton mentions upthread, there's usually no shortage of 'shuttle' buses at major airports to take you to hotels and resorts. For example, most times I've been to LA I've used a shuttle bus to a downtown or suburban hotel, then picked up a rental car a couple of days later and eventually returned it to LA airport. That's certainly what I do if I was going to Disney for a few days and then off to explore other parts of Florida - there's a whole lot more to Florida than Orlando and Miami - wildlife (and not just alligators...), stunning beaches and Gulf Coast barrier islands, Tampa bay area, Cape Canaveral, the Keys, the Everglades etc.
Clearly if you were only going to one of the resorts and staying there a car would be pointless. I was wondering more about the general point that people will avoid it. If you aren't staying at one of the resorts all the time, a car is close to essential
As I said, they'll avoid it if possible. If for no other reason than it's money that could be spent on something else. But due to the car-centric design of many US cities it often isn't avoidable.
Well yes, but that's already under construction.
Just barely, and it's also terribly mismanaged. A post in another thread described CHSR as basically being nowhere to nowhere since the only phase being worked on right now does not guarantee LA to Frisco.
ac6000cw
Established Member
Quite - it took 12 years from the formation of the California High-Speed Rail Authority in 1996 to the basic route and funding getting approved by the voters in 2008, then another 7 years until construction started in 2015, and services on the 'initial' Merced to Bakersfield segment (172 miles, all in the flat Central Valley, and projected to cost $31 billion) aren't due to start until 2030.
AFAIK they've still not got funding for the segments through the mountains to connect Merced to San Jose ($28 billion) and Bakersfield to Burbank (and LA to Anaheim) ($41 billion). Total estimated cost for San Jose-Merced-Bakersfield-Burbank-Anaheim is over $100 billion at 2023 prices.
Precisely how much of CAHSR's slow progress can be blamed on its management and how much can be blaming on continuous underfunding by politicians is a contentious topic.
Of course recent events perhaps place the decision to start in the Central Valley in a different light...
Sounds like the US is even worse than the UK at building rail infrastructure. Of course it doesn't help having people like Elon Musk trying to kill it off with crazy ideas like Hyperloop.
Contentious as it may be the result is unfortunately still the same.
Speed43125
Member
It does rather contrast with the accusations that HS2 has been engineered to be too big to fail.
Incidentally, since the business plan seems to at least partly rely on the state funded CAHSR to be built, do we know if BLW are providing any funding help?
Backroom_boy
Member
Almost certainly not.
Deepgreen
Established Member
Yes - it staggers me every time I go there and see the juxtaposition of level crossings and road junctions, etc. US rail safety culture is very different - take, for example, the four horn blasts code for a train approaching a crossing - this is something that the UK has not adopted (there is no mandate to sound horns for AHBs here, unless specifically stated), yet, even in urban areas, a large proportion of railways in the US are unfenced - contradictions are everywhere.
Like an OHLE version of the old Gatex 73s plus MLVs!According to this:
I don't know how they intepret "impenetrable" but it doesn't look as if conventional full barriers will suffice.
I believe we allow foot crossings on 125 mph lines in the UK...
Yes I don't think anybody else is planning on running "Venture" diesel powered sets at 125 mph.
I don't know what's planned on the North East Corridor - as I recall it used to be only "Metroliner" and then Acela trains that reached 125 mph, not the regular corridor trains. But in any case the new trains will have both the locomotive and a motor carriage powered from the overhead wires.
I'm not even going to try to consider whether that makes them loco hauled stock or a multiple unit - it's an abomination I think never seen before...
Oh absolutely - the FRA's recent assessment of the safety culture at Norfolk Southern is highly illuminating, partly because of how gentle they are!
Sort of, except instead of the locomotive being an electro-diesel the pantograph (and I presume transformer) are on the carriage.
I think the reason for the horn code isn't so that non rail users recognize it as a train (train horns there are distinctive enough that they would be hard to mistake for anything else) but because in the days when whistles were used for communication (within and between trains) it needed to be clear that the whistle was just being sounded for a grade crossing.
Safe use of level crossings did come into the driving test theory course I did in the US but I'm pretty sure they never mentioned listening for a particular horn pattern.