Brighton - London; much cheaper to St Pancras than Charing Cross?

[Howardh]

Am I doing something wrong? Looking for a day return Brighton - London (OP) 2nd Sept and if I put in via Charing Cross (as my destination) - firstly it appears to terminate at Waterloo East and it's way more expensive than London Bridge, Farringdon or St Pancras.

It looks to me if Thameslink offer cheaper prices for basically the same route (eg Gatwick Express is more expensive) but as I ask, am I doing something wrong as I'd like to terminate at Charing Cross; however if the price is a tenenr more (without r/c) then i might as well go to St Pancras or London Bridge and get the tube back to Piccadilly. So is there a cheap day return to all London terminals and I can't find it?

EDIT - just had a thought, is it possible to leave the Brighton/London train at London Bridge, then tap in to connect to Charing X by rail, and continue by tube to Piccadilly Circus - would I have to leave the station at London Bridge to re-enter and tap in?

 

[jfisher21]

Yes that would be best, buy a thameslink return to London bridge, exit station and tap in on contactless to carry on to Charing cross

 

[Howardh]

Yes that would be best, buy a thameslink return to London bridge, exit station and tap in on contactless to carry on to Charing cross

Thanks - So I have to physically leave the station? Or are there tap-in facilities between platforms?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Am I doing something wrong? Looking for a day return Brighton - London (OP) 2nd Sept and if I put in via Charing Cross (as my destination) - firstly it appears to terminate at Waterloo East and it's way more expensive than London Bridge, Farringdon or St Pancras.

It looks to me if Thameslink offer cheaper prices for basically the same route (eg Gatwick Express is more expensive) but as I ask, am I doing something wrong as I'd like to terminate at Charing Cross; however if the price is a tenenr more (without r/c) then i might as well go to St Pancras or London Bridge and get the tube back to Piccadilly. So is there a cheap day return to all London terminals and I can't find it?

EDIT - just had a thought, is it possible to leave the Brighton/London train at London Bridge, then tap in to connect to Charing X by rail, and continue by tube to Piccadilly Circus - would I have to leave the station at London Bridge to re-enter and tap in?

When travelling between Brighton and London, tickets intended for use on Thameslink branded services are cheaper than ones intended for use on Southern and/or Gatwick Express branded services. For the ultimate in flexibility you would get an Any Permitted ticket to/from London Terminals but that is the most expensive of all.

A "Not Underground" ticket from London St Pancras (note: not route "Thameslink only" or one from "London Thameslink") would be the next most flexible, and the only relevant London Terminal you couldn't use with that would be Charing Cross (as that would involve a double back between Waterloo East and CHX).

Is it Piccadilly Circus you're actually heading to/from?

 

[JonathanH]

Thanks - So I have to physically leave the station? Or are there tap-in facilities between platforms?

At London Bridge you would need to go the ticket gates to tap out / tap in but it isn't that much of an imposition because you have to go down and up the escalators anyway.

Could you go to Blackfriars instead and use the underground from there?

 

[CyrusWuff]

As trains operated by GTR under their Thameslink brand don't serve Charing Cross, the only point-to-point fares offered for that journey are those routed "Any Permitted", which are valid on all three of the relevant brands that GTR operate (i.e. Gatwick Express, Southern and Thameslink).

Given your intention to continue to Piccadilly Circus, you could purchase a Day Travelcard routed "Thameslink Only" instead (assuming you don't mind being limited to Thameslink branded services between Brighton and London Bridge) as the "Thameslink Only" restriction only applies outside of the Travelcard Area. (Whilst you should be able to use such a ticket on any train from Brighton, given they're all operated by the same company, sticking to Thameslink branded trains will result in less hassle).

 

[Howardh]

Thanks everyone; yes my destination is Piccadilly Circus and surrounds, Brighton > Blackfriars + tube looks the best option (and the most interesting one station-wise) and then contactless for two single zone 1 journeys (out and back).
Also the above post referring to btfares is helpful; but appears to simply connect to the train that I would have caught from Blackfriars but is an option.
What may determing my destination is if the heritage bus 15 is running; I'll enquire nearer the time. But thanks everyone, most helpful!

 

[yorkie]

I agree that an Off Peak Travelcard (ODT) routed Thameslink Only is best.

It's restricted to trains operated by the named company between Brighton and the boundary of Zone 6, but I agree with others that Govia Thameslink staff might ask for additional payment if you were to use one of the company's other brands.

Once you're within the relevant Zones you are not restricted to any particular company, and of course a Travelcard includes buses too.

(I'll add that if anyone uses a valid ticket restricted to Thameslink Only and is incorrectly charged by Govia Thameslink for using the 'wrong brand', I would be extremely interested to hear this and I may also be able to reimburse anyone in this position if they can provide evidence of an incorrect charge; please contact me for more information)

 

[ThameslinkUser]

It's restricted to trains operated by the named company between Brighton and the boundary of Zone 6, but I agree with others that Govia Thameslink staff might ask for additional payment if you were to use one of the company's other brands.

Is it not the case that, until Monday, you can use TOC-Only tickets on any TOC (or brand in this case) regardless?

 

[Haywain]

Is it not the case that, until Monday, you can use TOC-Only tickets on any TOC (or brand in this case) regardless?

Not in all circumstances, but with walk up tickets it seems to be OK. In theory, at least.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I think the 3 tickets St Panc - Brighton (Not Underground), Thameslink stations - Brighton, and London - Brighton via Thameslink trains, are all the same cheaper price than ones allowing travel from Victoria station and/or on Southern trains.

London-Brighton, depending on which London terminal is convenient, can be an interesting situation if you're trying to "outwit" the complicated restrictions while paying the lower price.

 

[Hadders]

If the OP's ultimate destination is Piccadilly Circus then I would buy a Brighton to London Zones 1-6 Day Travelcard route: Thameslink Only. This costs £16.70 with a railcard discount and allows you to make one journey return from Brighton to London on Thameslink* and unlimited journeys on National Rail, Underground or Buses in fare ones 1-6.

I'd take a Thameslink branded train from Brighton to London Bridge and change to the Jubilee Line, alighting at Green Park and walk to Piccadilly Circus (Google maps has it down as an 8 minute walk). You could change to the Piccadilly Line at Green Park but you have to walk along a rather long passageway so it's probably more straightforward to do the walk at street level.

No need for to worry about tapping in and out and if the OP finds himself with any spare time he can always use the travelcard to do some more journeys.

* Technically this ticket is valid on any train operated by Govia Thameslink Railway but we don't need to have that debate here.

 

[Howardh]

If the OP's ultimate destination is Piccadilly Circus then I would buy a Brighton to London Zones 1-6 Day Travelcard route: Thameslink Only.

I'd take a Thameslink branded train from Brighton to London Bridge and change to the Jubilee Line, alighting at Green Park and walk to Piccadilly Circus (Google maps has it down as an 8 minute walk). You could change to the Piccadilly Line at Green Park but you have to walk along a rather long passageway so it's probably more straightforward to do the walk at street level.

No need for to worry about tapping in and out and if the OP finds himself with any spare time he can always use the travelcard to do some more journeys.

Could do, Looks like I would have to buy that at the station rather than an e or m ticket (??), but that's no probs, there's no price advantage. As you say, it gives flexibility in London.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

With the Thameslink routed travel card product, could the OP not maybe change at East Croydon which is Zone 5 and then travel onwards via London Victoria or even Charing Cross?

 

[Hadders]

Could do, Looks like I would have to buy that at the station rather than an e or m ticket (??), but that's no probs, there's no price advantage. As you say, it gives flexibility in London.

Travelcards aren't available as e-tickets as the ticket barriers on the Underground aren't set up to accept them. You can purchase it online and collect it from a ticket machine or just buy it at the station, either from the ticket office or TVM prior to departure..

With the travel card product, could the OP not maybe change at East Croydon which is Zone 5 and then travel onwards via London Victoria or even Charing Cross?

They could but by the time you factor a change in at East Croydon it's probably as quick to stay on to London Bridge and get the Jubilee Line. If travelling to Victoria there is the chance of a poorly trained member of staff claiming the ticket isn't valid. Clearly it is 100% valid to change at East Croydon but given the history with Thameslink only tickets it's right to draw attention to the risk.

 

[infobleep]

I think the 3 tickets St Panc - Brighton (Not Underground), Thameslink stations - Brighton, and London - Brighton via Thameslink trains, are all the same cheaper price than ones allowing travel from Victoria station and/or on Southern trains.

London-Brighton, depending on which London terminal is convenient, can be an interesting situation if you're trying to "outwit" the complicated restrictions while paying the lower price.

Would a Brighton to St Pancras be vaud to Charring Cross, if the person then walked to St Pancras or is there a reason why that wouldn't be valid that way?

 

[Hadders]

Would a Brighton to St Pancras be vaud to Charring Cross, if the person then walked to St Pancras or is there a reason why that wouldn't be valid that way?

It's debatable. We've had numerous discussions in the past without coming to a clear consensus either way. The ticket is not intended to be used via Charing Cross so if you were to use it that way you must be prepared for an argument and hassle.

 

[paul1609]

Would a Brighton to St Pancras be vaud to Charring Cross, if the person then walked to St Pancras or is there a reason why that wouldn't be valid that way?

Tickets from GTR stations south of London to St Pancras from Ticket Offices and TVMs are printed to "London Thameslink" since the beginning of the year. I don't think there is a way of getting a ticket specifically to St Pancras anymore. The fares shown as issued to London Terminals on BR Fares will be rejected by the barriers at St Pancras and you will most likely have a debate with the ticket staff.
I don't think you could reasonably argue that a ticket to London Thameslink is valid to Charing Cross.
Southeastern Tickets were still issued to St Pancras the last time I travelled that way in January but they are complicated by it being the HS1 terminal.
The Brighton Line Fares rest solely with the Dft, GTR dont want them and the independant review of the Brighton Line recommended that they were abolished along with the Gatwick Express Fares but it seems that the premium is needed to subsidise ultra cheap fares in other parts of the country.

 

[Howardh]

The whole situation seems to be an unholy mess. Pity any foreign tourist trying to decipher our rail ticketing, especially if their english is weak, why it can't say "any London Terminal" on the cheapest day return, and it doesn't matter which TOC you go with? I don't want to start the nationalisation debate again...but can't ticketing be nationalised??
Today's rant over!

 

[AlbertBeale]

The whole situation seems to be an unholy mess. Pity any foreign tourist trying to decipher our rail ticketing, especially if their english is weak, why it can't say "any London Terminal" on the cheapest day return, and it doesn't matter which TOC you go with? I don't want to start the nationalisation debate again...but can't ticketing be nationalised??
Today's rant over!

My understanding is that that's what was the case, in effect, many years ago. Coming from south of London you could interchange/wiggle to get to any Southern Region terminus; it would be good to have that simplification again! The through Thameslink route obviously confuses the matter - so there'd have to be some simple rule about where "south London" terminals become "north London terminals" (maybe with an overlap), if tickets are to get you "to" London but not "through" it.

 

[swt_passenger]

The whole situation seems to be an unholy mess. Pity any foreign tourist trying to decipher our rail ticketing, especially if their english is weak, why it can't say "any London Terminal" on the cheapest day return, and it doesn't matter which TOC you go with? I don't want to start the nationalisation debate again...but can't ticketing be nationalised??
Today's rant over!

From the 2013 TSGN franchise ITT:

The Department requires a Franchisee who, where possible, will take advantage of the opportunity created by the combination of the two existing franchises to simplify the fares and restrictions which operate on the Franchise and communicate this clearly to passengers.
Not achieved

The Department requires a Franchisee who fully understands the sensitivities and potential issues associated with the creation of New Fares Baskets with respect to the current differential in fares between some stations on the Brighton Mainline stations and London Thameslink stations, especially with regard to season tickets.
Not achieved -
When push came to shove they just didn’t want to rock the boat on cheaper Thameslink fares, especially seasons. DfT and the TOC got scared ?

The Department requires a Franchisee who understands the connection between its fares policy and the need to manage potential overcrowding, and achieves the appropriate balance between the two.
Not achieved - as a result of the above.

The Department requires a franchisee who will simplify the rules for ‘London Thameslink’ destinations from the North, and South (where currently passengers from the South must disembark by City Thameslink but passengers from the North may travel to Elephant & Castle) so that the core ‘London Thameslink’ stations are the same for journeys from the North and the South, to apply as soon as practicable to the new franchise.
Done - although it took many years, and still leads to confusion compared to the London Terminals alternatives.

 

[Howardh]

What muddies the waters even more is once you are at Gatwick you are in the Oyster zone. So what's the cost of a day return Brighton - Gatwick (£10.50) and then touch in @ Gatwick and go to any London station on the next train (including Victoria)? Can you catch Gatwick Express using the Oyster card? can that be done contactless??

 

[Hadders]

You can use Oyster from Gatwick to London but you get charged a higher fare if you use Gatwick Express branded services. They can identify which train you’ve used as Gatwick Express branded trains use dedicated ticket barriers at Victoria.

Be very careful what you wish for if fares are simplified as it will almost certainly lead to the cheaper fares being abolished.

 

[yorkie]

The whole situation seems to be an unholy mess. Pity any foreign tourist trying to decipher our rail ticketing, especially if their english is weak, why it can't say "any London Terminal" on the cheapest day return, and it doesn't matter which TOC you go with? I don't want to start the nationalisation debate again...but can't ticketing be nationalised??
Today's rant over!

You can buy tickets to London Terminals with complete freedom to use any train, but you might not like the price of such tickets. If you wish to propose an alternative fares structure, please post your proposals in the Speculative Ideas forum.

What muddies the waters even more is once you are at Gatwick you are in the Oyster zone. So what's the cost of a day return Brighton - Gatwick (£10.50) and then touch in @ Gatwick and go to any London station on the next train (including Victoria)? Can you catch Gatwick Express using the Oyster card? can that be done contactless??

Contactless/PAYG fares are charged at a premium if you tap the readers at platforms 13/14; the premium is well over twice the price when travelling off peak. I am not sure how this relates to the OP's journey though? If you wish to enquire about any other fares please create a new thread.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Splitting with Oyster at Gatwick is likely to cost more overall. One such case I can think of, and use quite regularly myself, is when travelling in early morning and taking advantage of Oyster being off-peak 0630. As long as you tap in before this time, you will be charged off-peak onwards rather than a full peak time fare all the way into London, which would apply with National Rail fares.

 

[Howardh]

Thanks for the info about using Oyster cards, clearly due to the increased cost Brighton/London this isn't an option. Think I'm sorted now, Thameslink it is and maybe a travelcard or contactless Tube travel.

 

[jumble]

You can use Oyster from Gatwick to London but you get charged a higher fare if you use Gatwick Express branded services. They can identify which train you’ve used as Gatwick Express branded trains use dedicated ticket barriers at Victoria.

Be very careful what you wish for if fares are simplified as it will almost certainly lead to the cheaper fares being abolished.

This is not the case at present
The Gatwick Express is suspended

Home | Gatwick Express

www.gatwickexpress.com

Some forum members and I travelled on the Branded Stock from London to East Croydon last week
You are sent away from the dedicated barriers to a different platform entrance at 11 and I was told by everyone i asked if I could use my over 60 which is not valid on Gatwick express and was given an affirmative answer each time

We also had an interesting speculation as to what would happen with a touched in Oyster with enough PAYG if one was intending to travel Victoria to Gatwick and not leaving the station at Gatwick and going back to East Croydon, and were gripped on the way back. Could one be prosecuted ?
This presumably would not apply to my Over 60 as it cannot have PAYG added

 

[Howardh]

This is not the case at present
The Gatwick Express is suspended

Home | Gatwick Express

www.gatwickexpress.com

Some forum members and I travelled on the Branded Stock from London to East Croydon last week
You are sent away from the dedicated barriers and I was told by everyone i asked if I could use my over 60 which is not valid on Gatwick express and was given an affirmative answer each time

You can't use the senior railcard on Gatwick Express? Now that IS news to me. Heathrow Express too?? Dunno if the Gatwick Express starts at Brighton (???) but if it does must make sure I'm not on it!!

 

[30907]

My understanding is that that's what was the case, in effect, many years ago. Coming from south of London you could interchange/wiggle to get to any Southern Region terminus; it would be good to have that simplification again! The through Thameslink route obviously confuses the matter - so there'd have to be some simple rule about where "south London" terminals become "north London terminals" (maybe with an overlap), if tickets are to get you "to" London but not "through" it.

"London SR" rebranded as "London Terminals" is still the default for South of the river walk-up tickets, isn't it?
There isn't an obvious "North" equivalent - really only Cambridge and beyond have access to more than 2 terminals until you get quite far north. (Birmingham has 3 by counting Paddington).

 

[mmh]

You can't use the senior railcard on Gatwick Express? Now that IS news to me. Heathrow Express too?? Dunno if the Gatwick Express starts at Brighton (???) but if it does must make sure I'm not on it!!

You can use railcards on it, but not the over 60s London Freedom Pass.

Gatwick Express doesn't have special fares south of Gatwick (when it runs south of Gatwick!). Yes, it is the part of the country with possibly the most complicated and confusing walk-up fares. It's very silly, but there's no risk of it being made simpler anytime soon, sadly.

"London SR" rebranded as "London Terminals" is still the default for South of the river walk-up tickets, isn't it?
There isn't an obvious "North" equivalent - really only Cambridge and beyond have access to more than 2 terminals until you get quite far north. (Birmingham has 3 by counting Paddington).

It is still the default, and they're still valid to the same southern terminals.