BT Copper to Fibre

[jon0844]

I was 'forced' onto BT digital voice earlier this year. I knew I'd be moved one day, but when I called to change my plan (and avoid a hefty 10% increase, on top of another increase after going out of contract) they agreed to keep me on my current service but cut the price from £85 to £50, and include a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate.

I agreed over the phone, and did get directed to a site (sent via text as I was on the call) to accept the T&Cs (which I was told hadn't changed, but clearly had) and all was fine, until the changeover day when I started getting messages about my change for the phone service - giving around a week or two notice.

I don't use my landline currently, so wasn't bothered but I don't use the BT hub which means it effectively terminated my phone. I haven't complained because I'm not bothered, and I can check via my online account the incoming calls and I've had about four or five max since April.

I do wish there was a way to use the service with a (far more advanced) router, and I don't want to daisy chain my service through the BT hub and have another box consuming power. I guess it's about security, but what's wrong with an old school VoIP system I could connect to any router?

With so many people advised to negotiate for a better price, I wonder how many people suddenly end up agreeing to switch without being advised? I know the answer is to pause and read everything closely, but it should still be mentioned IMO.

 

[sor]

I gather the underlying reason is that Ofcom doesn't see these services as "VoIP" even though it uses the same technologies. They still see it as a landline service. That's why there are expectations on quality of service, alternative power sources for vulnerable customers, and all the rest of it, things that the actual VoIP firms don't need to worry about. The ISPs will have concluded that the best/easiest way to ensure this is to force you to use their equipment. They don't want to be on the end of an Ofcom investigation because someone's misconfigured router/IP phone dropped their 999 call or somehow appeared as a different user at another address.

BT will probably tell you that they've offered broadband only service for some time and you could have saved money that way.

I did the recontract dance for my dad last year, but I did it online & it did ask if you wanted to move to digital voice and listed the pitfalls, power cuts in particular. Of course now that PSTN is on "stop sell" I doubt they'll be offering a choice now.

 

[Markdvdman]

One thing I will say is since I switched to FTTP there has only been one dropout in 24 months. That was a couple of weeks ago when Sky DNS went kaput in the night. I could have fixed it by adding Google DNS to the router but it came back in the early hours anyway. Also got unlimited 5G data so could have tethered anyway though that would not have helped the voip phone. Nobody calls that late anyway.

However, seeing the issues people have had it has been a bit of a joke in how it is being handled especially for the non tech Savvy which is MANY people!!

 

[Devonian]

I would also speculate that BT just makes the remaining payphones free to use at some point, due to the methods used by those payphones to accurately charge for calls not being available in the VoIP world ... I'm unsure of the cabinets you mention, the equipment needed to convert a payphone is not that big and could likely easily fit in the space under the phone. There aren't any payphones near me so I can't go and see what they may be doing...

The most common type of payphone in the UK - which is 40 years old - was originally designed to calculate charges based on meter pulses from the exchange, but BT removed meter pulsing about 15 years ago, so all their payphones have been modified to calculate the charges based on time and, presumably, initial digits dialled. However, the current BT price list does indeed include a line stating that calls to UK geographic numbers "made from payphones that don't take coins" are free ... which is definitely not on the notices in any of our nearby 'card only' payphones!

In 'red' phone boxes, there was usually only a small plastic cover - about the size of half a fire extinguisher - over the incoming electricity connection, whilst the 'glass' boxes have a full-width equipment cabinet under the telephone. The latter is large enough for extra equipment, and that's what has been added in my nearest 'red' phone box, along with LED lighting.

...the current BT price list does indeed include a line stating that calls to UK geographic numbers "made from payphones that don't take coins" are free ... which is definitely not on the notices in any of our nearby 'card only' payphones...

Well, well, well: my second-nearest payphone - also upgraded with new cabinet and LED lighting - grumpily deters callers with a "Coins not accepted here" notice, and a poster indicating that a credit card is required to make calls ... but if you dial a landline or mobile number it will connect it with the display showing "free call". Pip pip hooray.

Back to VOIP: we had a series of power cuts this morning, which reminds me that one of the irritations of VOIP is waiting for the router to reboot after even a short interruption. Because of the number of 'blips' that we get here, I have a UPS to stabilise the power supply as much as provide backup, and it happily ran my router an ATA and a Raspberry Pi for just over an hour this morning.

 

[Devonian]

A new, and welcome, development for voice-only telephone customers: Openreach are now preparing a "SOTAP for Analogue" product. It will continue to provide the appearance of a traditional analogue PSTN line to existing voice-only customers who have equipment that requires a traditional PSTN line and cannot be moved to VOIP. Effectively the VOIP equipment will be based at the exchange instead, so the customer will still receive telephone voltage and dial tone at their master socket rather than requiring a router.

 

[NoOldEngine]

Maybe I'm being dense, but can anyone explain to me what BT will do, physically around my house, when the changeover from analogue to digital phones "by 2025"? The BT website is too vague and hyped to make anything clear, but from the Telecoms World website for example :-

It seems to me that in much of the available information several things are being confused and conflated : Fibre-versus-Copper, Analog-versus-Digital, and Voice-versus-Data.

Yes, I get it that everyone (I mean everyone who still needs a landline service) will need a router for VOIP; I already have one but I guess it may need changing. I also get it that fibre is faster than copper, athough its reliabilty will be no better than my present copper unless they re-route it away from the trees that keep breaking the lines, or put it underground (I wish).

However, sorry, I cannot see that copper is going to be replaced by fibre everywhere by 2025. I live in rural Wales and in my county alone there must be thousands of miles of overhead copper line on tens (or hundreds?) of thousands of poles, a significant portion of them decrepit and with trees grown around them. The Open Reach guys are always repairing lines around here, and often need chainsaws on the surrounding greenery just to get their ladders up the poles. My line along the road (there are four poles just for me) has needed repairing several times and each is a significant project that takes about a week, with temporary traffic lights, tree surgeon contractors, cherry-pickers, typically 4-6 vehicles and ten men : that is just for a short circuit in the cable.

Yet with just over a year to go "by 2025" there is no sign of any work up poles or of trenching for underground cables. The latter would need wayleaves and no other property owners I know around here have seen any applications for them. So does anyone know what will really happen?

Around here Openreach have installed these round devices on the telegraph poles and run new wires or tubes between the poles. Some poles had one wire feed and then split to feed each house, but now there are are three and in some cases more wires along with the original wire.

Seems the ability to have fibre to the house has been added to the area and shortly after the equipment update/install various internet companies were sending me offers to cheap internet and telephone.

I use Virgin Media, which is fibre to the house (Yes a proper tube) with a brown box outside of the house which has a coax cable leaving it to a power inserter/signal splitter device inside the house. 12volt PSU powers the outdoor box via the coax and the signal splitter splits the signal from the outside box three ways. Two TVIO receivers for TV and a Superhub 3 modem/telephone unit.

No UPS, so power off means loss of internet and phone, so if your BT line is updated, then you will need to think about the quality of mobile telephone service in your area and if you need to change providers to a better service.

I have two thoughts on UPS's. The batteries tend to last 5 years and often they don't last as long as you think. 4 or 5 hours may be the upper limit for a UPS, but you can charge your mobile phone on a solar panel with 5 volt output or charge it in the car.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Many thanks for the comprehensive post As you say Cityfibre put in the fibre Vodafone are using. I got the impression from the guys digging up our road that they were subbing for Vodafone but it seems not.
The boxes are getting so numerous they must be running out of room..

It comes as no surprise that Cityfibre are not profitable. The work is spectacularly disjointed. They must have dug up a nearby road at least six times and have been pratting about over eighteen months now. Always doing a bit, vanishing,coming back, doing a bit more etc.

Virgin are no better. Turned up outside our house at 16:00, dug one hole, finished at 19:00. Back in the morning to retarmac at 07:00, gone by ,08:00. Numerous small works in different locations rather than sweep through a road and sort in one flowing operation.

We watch with interest.

The likes of CityFibre aren't profitable because it costs millions to lay these cables. It’s a similar situation to when cable TV was new. There will be lots of companies making nothing during the mass rollout that then merge through acquisition leaving one or two big players.

 

[Energy]

Around here Openreach have installed these round devices on the telegraph poles and run new wires or tubes between the poles

This thing in the centre? It's a creep preventer. Its to avoid a difference in expansion between the inner and outer fibre over time, if they expanded at different amounts it would put stress on the fibre splices.

I use Virgin Media, which is fibre to the house (Yes a proper tube) with a brown box outside of the house which has a coax cable leaving it to a power inserter/signal splitter device inside the house. 12volt PSU powers the outdoor box via the coax and the signal splitter splits the signal from the outside box three ways. Two TVIO receivers for TV and a Superhub 3 modem/telephone unit.

Yes, the original Virgin Media FTTP deployment used RFoG (radio frequency over glass), it just transmitted the normal coax feed but over fibre the entire way to the home*, normal HFC has fibre to a street cabinet. VM are now deploying XGS PON which is an entirely IP-based solution over the fibres, the RFoG areas will have this overlayed at some point.

Something to note, VM are still considered a cable tv operator, when they retire the cable tv network in favour of their new XGS PON network they will be reclassified as a normal ISP and as such will have to implement the Ofcom required duct sharing.


* More Detail: This is using PON and additional equipment is used to mitigate OBI.

 

[maniacmartin]

Nowadays I’m with Community Fibre FTTP, although our street also has Openreach FTTC and Virgin Media. Whilst our VM cabling is underground, Community Fibre’s stuff is overhead on the same telegraph poles as Openreach.

The main thing I noticed was the amount of boxes, cables and power supplies I now have. BT have historically been very good at having one box to do everything, whereas with Community Fibre I have that GPON fibre terminator, router and VOIP ATA, each different dimensions and needing a power socket. It’s quite hard to get that looking neat and tidy by the faceplate at the front of the house, especially with my own tech stuff such as DECT handset base too. I love the flexibility of the modular system even if it does look like a rats nest!

CF also left things half done in the street for months - we still have random fibre cables hanging from the telegraph poles going nowhere or tangled under parked cars. Their cabinets are much bigger and noisier than Openreaches.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A new, and welcome, development for voice-only telephone customers: Openreach are now preparing a "SOTAP for Analogue" product. It will continue to provide the appearance of a traditional analogue PSTN line to existing voice-only customers who have equipment that requires a traditional PSTN line and cannot be moved to VOIP. Effectively the VOIP equipment will be based at the exchange instead, so the customer will still receive telephone voltage and dial tone at their master socket rather than requiring a router.

I am sure that someone told me that this was only a temporary measure thast would only give a choice between voice and broadband, but not both, and would go no further than 2030. Was that incorrect information?

 

[Devonian]

I am sure that someone told me that this was only a temporary measure thast would only give a choice between voice and broadband, but not both, and would go no further than 2030. Was that incorrect information?

You are right - it's intended as temporary, and will be voice only. It's a stand-alone product so customers who take broadband won't be able to take both on the same line - though it looks like it could be ordered on a second line if required. It will help with the closure of the PSTN as it will allow PSTN to be turned off from 2025 without removing PSTN-style service completely. It will also help ease concerns over resilience in case of power failure, as such service will still be backed up by batteries/generators at the exchange. The extra five years should be enough time to sort out the specific needs of customers who currently require a PSTN-style service (which would include telephones at locations with no power supply) and move them over to VOIP proper or some other telephony service.

 

[DerekC]

We have recently moved to a house that had been empty for a couple of years, so no broadband or phone connection. I placed an order for BT's cheapest service (they were offering a good deal) which appeared to be FTTC, prior to what I thought was the cut-off date so I would be connected via the old copper cable. That would have been convenient because I wanted my router etc in the hall where the old master socket was. To my surprise they installed an FTTP connection. It had to go into the kitchen because they wanted the minimum of internal cabling from an external wall. It turned out OK. However reading this thread has made me realise that there are in effect two dates. There seems to be a cutoff date for supplying a PSTN connection, but there also an Openreach cutoff date for providing a new connection via an old copper cable, which had passed in our area. There is also a practical point, which is that the new fibre connection may not be in the same place in the house as the old master socket.

PS - I suspect we could have insisted on the connection going into the hall, but Mrs C didn't want them making a mess of her new paint!!

 

[308165]

Coming to this late but what is the point of turning the PSTN system off, other than to save Openreach a bit of money. From a consumer* point of view it would be less hassle to keep it. The Internet is generally fast enough as it is.

*though of course in the UK doing the right thing for consumers is never a consideration of business.

 

[Energy]

Coming to this late but what is the point of turning the PSTN system off, other than to save Openreach a bit of money.

Equipment obsolescence mainly, exchanges still run on the old System X hardware which is now very old and difficult to get spares for. BT originally intended to replace it under their 21CN plan but after criticism for still intending to use ADSL, they switched to Openreach deploying FTTC.

However, BT decided not to enable voice at the FTTC cabinet level with voice being terminated at the router level. Previously/Currently VDSL2 frequencies were terminated at the cabinet while voice remained on copper cables to the exchange and ultimately handled by System X hardware.

The old copper cables from exchanges are also very big and take up a lot of duct space. A lot of BT exchanges are used for copper voice only, only around 1000 out of 4600 are used for fibre services so a lot is gained by shutting down old exchanges while the remaining ones can regain a lot of space for new equipment by removing legacy copper.

The Internet is generally fast enough as it is.

This will barely affect internet speed, though it's required for FTTP it's still happening to FTTC-served properties.

 

[JamesT]

In addition to the good explanation by @Energy , it’s not as if the UK are a massive outlier in this. The Dutch and Estonians turned their old PSTN off 5 years ago! Various other countries are in the process of migrating.

 

[Energy]

In addition to the good explanation by @Energy , it’s not as if the UK are a massive outlier in this. The Dutch and Estonians turned their old PSTN off 5 years ago! Various other countries are in the process of migrating.

Indeed, the UK is actually quite far behind compared to other countries and would be much further ahead if BT did voice at the FTTC cabinet level.

 

[jumble]

The likes of CityFibre aren't profitable because it costs millions to lay these cables. It’s a similar situation to when cable TV was new. There will be lots of companies making nothing during the mass rollout that then merge through acquisition leaving one or two big players.

The lack of regulation does lead to the absurd situation that takes place in West London and no doubt elsewhere
In many areas no FTTP is available but in our street we can have a choice of BT or Community fibre
Community fibre seem send their own engineers to install their kit on Openreach telegraph poles

 

[cjmillsnun]

The lack of regulation does lead to the absurd situation that takes place in West London and no doubt elsewhere
In many areas no FTTP is available but in our street we can have a choice of BT or Community fibre
Community fibre seem send their own engineers to install their kit on Openreach telegraph poles

FTTP is going to be a drawn out process. OR often decide to overbuild into planned AltNet areas because they want to retain their monopoly status where they can charge more for their wholesale packages. As for AltNets using existing OR ducts and poles, that’s something OR are required to offer and they do so for a reasonable price however as the kit doesn’t belong to OR, they can’t touch it.

Coming to this late but what is the point of turning the PSTN system off, other than to save Openreach a bit of money. From a consumer* point of view it would be less hassle to keep it. The Internet is generally fast enough as it is.

*though of course in the UK doing the right thing for consumers is never a consideration of business.

Telent are withdrawing support for System-X and Ericsson are doing the same for System-Y. So they need to be replaced. No one manufactures switched telephone exchanges any more and they cost a fortune to run. So the only viable alternative is VOIP.

 

[Ashley Hill]

My father who is 86 and a widower has a BT landline but has no interest or knowledge in anything internet wise. What does he have to do to keep his phone,will he be forced to purchase some sort of internet contract?

 

[JamesT]

My father who is 86 and a widower has a BT landline but has no interest or knowledge in anything internet wise. What does he have to do to keep his phone,will he be forced to purchase some sort of internet contract?

Digital Voice and the landline phone switch-off: what it means for you - Which?

You may have heard of BT Digital Voice, the PSTN switch-off, or that landline phones are being replaced. We explain all you need to know about the upcoming changes

www.which.co.uk

What if I don't have or want a broadband connection?

Those who currently only have a landline won't be forced to pay for broadband services that they don't want or need. Their digital phone service will work using a special dedicated broadband connection and shouldn't cost any more than what they pay now. BT has made a specific commitment to telecoms regulator Ofcom that its customers will pay the same amount, and Virgin Media says its voice-only customers will get the hub necessary for its digital phone services at no additional cost.

I expect that BT will be in touch before they turn off the PSTN at his exchange to offer the dedicated router for him to plug his phone into.

 

[Furryanimal]

I just completed a new two year deal with BT today and this wasn’t even mentioned.

 

[Enthusiast]

I think much of the confusion surrounding this is the use of the term "landline".

Customers will not have the connection that runs into their house (which many see as their "landline") removed. They will not have to use the internet or pay for an internet service if they don't want it and they will not have to use a mobile phone. They will maintain a physical connection (most usually a pair of copper wires) to the outside world. What is changing is how their voice calls are transmitted and switched (which is largely invisible to them). There will be some minor changes with their installation. Arrangements will be made by BT for those without an internet router to have their voice calls "digitised".

 

[WelshBluebird]

I think much of the confusion surrounding this is the use of the term "landline".

Customers will not have the connection that runs into their house (which many see as their "landline") removed. They will not have to use the internet or pay for an internet service if they don't want it and they will not have to use a mobile phone. They will maintain a physical connection (most usually a pair of copper wires) to the outside world. What is changing is how their voice calls are transmitted and switched (which is largely invisible to them). There will be some minor changes with their installation. Arrangements will be made by BT for those without an internet router to have their voice calls "digitised".

Basically the only real world actual important downside to note is the lack of a backup power source for blackouts (which generally isn't needed for regular PSTN connections). How much that actually matters is very much dependent on the individual and where the live, but I will say the last time I had a power cut that lasted more than a single digit number of minutes was quite a few years ago now and even then I still had mobile signal just fine so I'm not convinced it is something that most of us need to worry about (in the same way that the whole "cash is king" folk seem to talk about power cuts and entire card network failures all of the time, the actual chance of you being caught up in an event like that is pretty slim!). I do however think care needs to be given for those where this may be an issue, I'm specifically thinking of elderly folk who may rely on things like personal alarms, but even they are being replaced with digital ones that connect to the mobile phone networks these days.

 

[Energy]

I'm specifically thinking of elderly folk who may rely on things like personal alarms, but even they are being replaced with digital ones that connect to the mobile phone networks these days.

The care sector has been pretty terrible for this, it's been well known for years that at some point BT would shut down the traditional PSTN network yet many still sold landline-connected care devices.

Basically the only real world actual important downside to note is the lack of a backup power source for blackouts (which generally isn't needed for regular PSTN connections). How much that actually matters is very much dependent on the individual and where the live, but I will say the last time I had a power cut that lasted more than a single digit number of minutes was quite a few years ago now and even then I still had mobile signal just fine so I'm not convinced it is something that most of us need to worry about

For the vast majority of people, it doesn't matter; but for those who have power cuts and poor mobile signal, they are typically in rural isolated areas and would really suffer being unable to communicate. BT's initial reluctance to fund battery backup units really has not helped.

Customers will not have the connection that runs into their house (which many see as their "landline") removed. They will not have to use the internet or pay for an internet service if they don't want it and they will not have to use a mobile phone. They will maintain a physical connection (most usually a pair of copper wires) to the outside world. What is changing is how their voice calls are transmitted and switched (which is largely invisible to them). There will be some minor changes with their installation.

Yes, for landline-only customers it will appear the same but they'll need a box to connect their landline to the FTTC/FTTP line entering.

Arrangements will be made by BT for those without an internet router to have their voice calls "digitised".

It'll probably be a standard BT router with WiFi turned off. BT will want the opportunity to upsell broadband to the few who don't already have it as well.

 

[Furryanimal]

I just completed a new two year deal with BT today and this wasn’t even mentioned.

Update…this was not explained by the person I spoke to.
I am receiving new equipment that I have to connect on Wednesday in connection with this.
Nice to have clear lines of communication!

 

[Harpers Tate]

I have my FTTC service with PlusNet and have had a classic landline service until just recently. A couple of years ago, I got so sick of the supplied router misbehaving that I bought a new one. As it turns out, the one I chose has some pretty sophisticated telephony features onboard and, as well as being a very good WiFi router, has a classic phone socket on the back and is also a DECT base station.

In order to avoid all those pesky scam/spam calls (about loft insulation, boilers, cutting off my service/etc.,) I took a different virtual landline number from a 3rd party provider and set that up in the router. Advised all our known contacts (friends and relatives, banks and the like) of the new number and waited. Calls coming in to the old number were directed to an immediate answermachine with a polite message that the number was no longer being answered. And so, after a few weeks/months, only spam/scam calls were coming in to the old number, and no messages were ever left. At this point, then, that number is effectively redundant.

After leaving it all for a good few more months - just to be sure - I "upgraded" my PlusNet service to an internet-only (FTTC) plan. A couple of days later the old number went dead. My transition to VOIP is therefore complete.

In case it's of any interest:

FTTC service with no phone service = 23.99pm fixed for two years (annual price rises apply). Fastest speed available at this address. No TV subscriptons etc.
Virtual number rental with free incoming calls - zero, but that's an offer no longer available. The next cheapest I can currently find is £1.44/month.
Outgoing calls made via a different provider - about £30pa unlimited inc. various overseas locations. No 60 minute duration limit. etc. My incoming number is used here as callerID.
Total for all services including outbound calls is therefore about £28/month.

We have three DECT handsets. Both incoming and outgoing VOIP services are multi-line, meaning that the phone is only truly engaged if all three handsets are in use (which never happens). We can also answer inbound calls on our mobiles, if they are connected to the WiFi. And, if I go away, I can ask my box to divert incoming calls to another number (such as, my mobile) either all the time, or on/off by schedule (eg if I'm in a different timezone). For whatever the cost of the outgoing call would be.

 

[londonmidland]

There’s a planning permission notice near our property to install a new wooden post by Openreach.

We’ve never had any physical form of overhead wire from the wooden posts to the property. All wiring is underground. This will be the first time a post will be put up on our road, as currently, the road is free of any wooden posts.

My question is, will the engineers need to install an overhead wire from the post to the house? We have trees at the front of the property making it impossible for any sort of wire to reach the house without cutting it down.

 

[Non Multi]

There’s a planning permission notice near our property to install a new wooden post by Openreach.

We’ve never had any physical form of overhead wire from the wooden posts to the property. All wiring is underground. This will be the first time a post will be put up on our road, as currently, the road is free of any wooden posts.

My question is, will the engineers need to install an overhead wire from the post to the house? We have trees at the front of the property making it impossible for any sort of wire to reach the house without cutting it down.

They won't install a fibre cable between the pole and your home as long as you don't order a fibre to the premises product that requires it.

 

[M&NEJ]

Basically the only real world actual important downside to note is the lack of a backup power source for blackouts (which generally isn't needed for regular PSTN connections). How much that actually matters is very much dependent on the individual and where the live, but I will say the last time I had a power cut that lasted more than a single digit number of minutes was quite a few years ago now and even then I still had mobile signal just fine so I'm not convinced it is something that most of us need to worry about

It may be ten years ago now; but storm Desmond took out the entire electricity supply for Lancaster for hours on end (and in some parts of the city, days). Mobile 'phone users were wandering about trying to get a signal just to understand what was going on; whereas those of us with landlines were able to talk to anyone in the UK. Those who needed to were able to call emergency services.

In a climate emergency when major storms are likely to increase in frequency this seems like a retrograde step and one in which the full implications have not been recognised.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In a climate emergency when major storms are likely to increase in frequency this seems like a retrograde step and one in which the full implications have not been recognised.

Why do I wonder if the decision taken to set these particular "wheels in motion" was the brainchild of someone like the most obnoxious executive who is portrayed in the latest Nationwide Building Society TV advert who has no innate sense of how such an action could have drawbacks.