BusTimes.Org

[EnviroExplorer]

The New Forest tour commenced at the beginning of July, and the NFT Green buses only reappeared on the Morebus bustimes site, once they had taken up duty on the NFT, while the Red and Blue appeared throughout the winter and spring period. Today, 1826 came out of service on the Blue route and was replaced by Bluestar 1533 which took up service at about 1455 at Brockenhurst, but tracking only started showing at 1647 when it was at Buckland near Lymington, and now appears to be working normally. Maybe a Morebus issue?
Despite any glitches, I find the site invaluable. I wrongly assumed that most Morebus (and former Yellows) basically stayed on the same route, and there have been times when I wanted to photograph a certain bus, and it didn't turn up as I expected, being unaware that it had changed routes.

Something I’ve always done when hunting specific buses and making use of bustimes is to,
-Take one of the journeys said bus has already operated today
-Check for that journey yesterday on the vehicles page of the corresponding route
-Screenshot the entire list of journeys said bus operated yesterday, as normally the next day will be identical.

Apologies this may sound obvious to most people. Certainly a good way to expect interworking between different routes.

 

[markymark2000]

The New Forest tour commenced at the beginning of July, and the NFT Green buses only reappeared on the Morebus bustimes site, once they had taken up duty on the NFT, while the Red and Blue appeared throughout the winter and spring period.

The green NFT buses are convertables and so they had their roof put on and they were moved to Bluestar and they were running routes there and so of course they were on the Bluestar fleet list. They then got moved to the Morebus fleet list when the NFT tour started. Red and blue NFT buses were kept on the Morebus fleet list as they were running morebus routes when not on the New Forest Tour.

 

[341o2]

Thanks for the explanation

 

[baza585]

The green NFT buses are convertables and so they had their roof put on and they were moved to Bluestar and they were running routes there and so of course they were on the Bluestar fleet list. They then got moved to the Morebus fleet list when the NFT tour started. Red and blue NFT buses were kept on the Morebus fleet list as they were running morebus routes when not on the New Forest Tour.

I believe the Green route is run out of Totton which is a Bluestar depot.

 

[markymark2000]

I believe the Green route is run out of Totton which is a Bluestar depot.

AHH ok, so they weren't 'moved to Bluestar' as such, they were just used on normal Bluestar routes. Not sure why the green tour comes under Morebus on open data then if the bus is ran by Totton but oh well. Same ops licence I suppose but still odd how they do things.

In which case, to slightly change what I said originally, the buses were moved to Morebus on bustimes so the route links the trips to the route. Without moving the buses, they wouldn't link to the trips. So if you click on the bus, it lets you click onto the route and on the route page, you can see buses tracking. If you go to the vehicles page on the timetable, you will see it shows 10:45 trip ran by [vehicle]. None of that would be possible if the bus wasn't moved to the Morebus fleet list. When the tour stops and the bus goes back onto Bluestar routes, it will have to move again so that the bus links to Bluestar routes.

 

[baza585]

AHH ok, so they weren't 'moved to Bluestar' as such, they were just used on normal Bluestar routes. Not sure why the green tour comes under Morebus on open data then if the bus is ran by Totton but oh well. Same ops licence I suppose but still odd how they do things.

In which case, to slightly change what I said originally, the buses were moved to Morebus on bustimes so the route links the trips to the route. Without moving the buses, they wouldn't link to the trips. So if you click on the bus, it lets you click onto the route and on the route page, you can see buses tracking. If you go to the vehicles page on the timetable, you will see it shows 10:45 trip ran by [vehicle]. None of that would be possible if the bus wasn't moved to the Morebus fleet list. When the tour stops and the bus goes back onto Bluestar routes, it will have to move again so that the bus links to Bluestar routes.

It's fair to say that Totton is nominally a Bluestar depot but runs journeys on a Salisbury Reds route (X7).

Meanwhile Lymington run Bluestar 6 (not infrequently with more branded buses).

Bus times gets confused at times between the Lymington to Southampton 6 run by Lymington but with Bluestar branded vehicles (but not all the time) and the Wimborne to Bournemouth 6 which is run out of Bournemouth depot.

It's all the same GSC licence.

 

[M803UYA]

It's all the same GSC licence.

So, in theory then, these buses should all track as Go South Coast (GSC) irrespective of brand name on the side of the vehicle? The holder of the licence is the one who files the route registrations - which will always be GSC so all outward facing information should identify the operator of the service.

The route registrations I've seen have 'Go South Coast' on the omnitimes timetables attached to the registrations, rather than any brand such as more/reds/bluestar.

 

[markymark2000]

So, in theory then, these buses should all track as Go South Coast (GSC) irrespective of brand name on the side of the vehicle? The holder of the licence is the one who files the route registrations - which will always be GSC so all outward facing information should identify the operator of the service.

All of the bus tracking technically come from GoSouthCoast but then users split the buses into their respective customer facing operation because that is more friendly to users and enables the bus tracking to link up to the routes and trips so then everyone has much better information.
The holder of the licence can have separate trading names as Stagecoach do it all the time, their operators licences are under the historic company name 'trading as Stagecoach'. Stagecoach Merseyside is officially called Ribble Motor Services. Stagecoach South Wales is officially Red and White Bus Services.

The route registrations I've seen have 'Go South Coast' on the omnitimes timetables attached to the registrations, rather than any brand such as more/reds/bluestar.

That's because everything is on one operators licence. They don't have a Bluestar operators licence or Reds operators licence. It's just 'GoSouthCoast'

 

[156421]

If run of the mill service buses can be tracked on bustimes.org or apps... perhaps rail replacement buses could be similarly tracked?

 

[M803UYA]

All of the bus tracking technically come from GoSouthCoast but then users split the buses into their respective customer facing operation because that is more friendly to users and enables the bus tracking to link up to the routes and trips so then everyone has much better information.

That's because everything is on one operators licence. They don't have a Bluestar operators licence or Reds operators licence. It's just 'GoSouthCoast'

I knew that - I spent 5 years working for a competitor in their area. We were batch ordering registration copies twice a year... Excellent fun. Given what I've read about bustimes I'd take the output with a pinch of salt, especially when it can be user modified. Beyond using it to check timetables (in preference to traveline which varies in quality by region) but beyond that, I don't pay attention to the tracking outputs for the above reason.

 

[markymark2000]

If run of the mill service buses can be tracked on bustimes.org or apps... perhaps rail replacement buses could be similarly tracked?

Some of them already can be tracked. Rail replacement ran by Diamond Bus and Centrebus tends to track.

Operators with ticket machines though, they would have to set up the machine with a 'rail replacement' route and then activate that route for tracking however that may be.
For operators without ticket machines, it becomes more difficult though nothing would stop someone developing an app for drivers to download. Log the trip they are doing and use that to track to a central place and that central place send out tracking to 3rd party sites. It won't happen though as it's too customer friendly and no one wants to foot the costs for it.

Given what I've read about bustimes I'd take the output with a pinch of salt, especially when it can be user modified. Beyond using it to check timetables (in preference to traveline which varies in quality by region) but beyond that, I don't pay attention to the tracking outputs for the above reason.

The only bits which can be user edited are the bus type, livery and features. Much of this is now done by a voting system so spam edits are less likely and are often found quickly and the user banned for persistent spam. Some higher up users can approve edits if they are correct/disapprove them if incorrect. The actual operator can only be edited by certain users and that doesn't change that much.

The actual tracking is whatever information comes from operators (mostly information from the Ticketer ticket machine and so if happens to be wrong, that is because of garbage in, garbage out. Generally correct though. I've rarely had any issues with it, including accuracy of liveries.

 

[borage]

All of the bus tracking technically come from GoSouthCoast but then users split the buses into their respective customer facing operation because that is more friendly to users and enables the bus tracking to link up to the routes and trips so then everyone has much better information.

Not quite – the data uses National Operator Codes...

The National Operator Code dataset (NOC) contains unique national operator codes that link to the local operator codes in the Traveline National Data Set (TNDS) and NextBuses API. NOC’s are primarily required for BODS and used for Passenger’s TXC and SIRI feeds. The NOC is also used to convert local regional operator codes that might exist in exports from the Traveline regions to TNDS, or in real-time feeds to the NextBuses API, to a single universal operator identity and associated code.

To look up a National Operator Code you can search the NOC database, hosted by Traveline.

...of which there are separate ones for Bluestar (BLUS) and morebus (WDBC), etc. In theory, they're more customer-friendly than licenses, although in practice some operators have too many different codes and some too few. And at the moment, both Bluestar and morebus's route 6s are tracking with the morebus operator code (WDBC).

 

[markymark2000]

Not quite – the data uses National Operator Codes...

I don't believe that GoSouthCoast split their vehicles into operator codes at tracking as the ticket machine codes are just the bus fleet number.
As seen in the photo below, the ticket machine ID makes no reference at all to the operator (the SQ thing is present for all GSC vehicles that I've seen, no relation to depot or division). The operator field can be edited by some users so I could make that bus track as a Stagecoach Highlands vehicle if I changed the code in that field.

And tracking data comes from a centralised dataset

Data feed details

data.bus-data.dft.gov.uk

The Lymington 6 is an issue route as the route is under the Bluestar operating division but the buses used are also used for Morebus and so you'd have to move buses all day everyday. There was at one point a user who would move buses all day between Plymouth Citybus and Transport for Cornwall depending on where the bus finished its duty or if buses swapped for maintenance etc etc. For the Lymington 6 to track properly, you'd have to go into the vehicle, edit the company NOC code to be Bluestar but that would mess up tracking if the bus ever does a morebus route.

 

[borage]

I don't believe that GoSouthCoast split their vehicles into operator codes at tracking as the ticket machine codes are just the bus fleet number.
As seen in the photo below, the ticket machine ID makes no reference at all to the operator (the SQ thing is present for all GSC vehicles that I've seen, no relation to depot or division). The operator field can be edited by some users so I could make that bus track as a Stagecoach Highlands vehicle if I changed the code in that field.

And tracking data comes from a centralised dataset

Data feed details

data.bus-data.dft.gov.uk

The Lymington 6 is an issue route as the route is under the Bluestar operating division but the buses used are also used for Morebus and so you'd have to move buses all day everyday. There was at one point a user who would move buses all day between Plymouth Citybus and Transport for Cornwall depending on where the bus finished its duty or if buses swapped for maintenance etc etc. For the Lymington 6 to track properly, you'd have to go into the vehicle, edit the company NOC code to be Bluestar but that would mess up tracking if the bus ever does a morebus route.

But there's also an OperatorRef field in that tracking data, which distinguishes between Bluestar and Morebus
(attachment shows a bit of the Go South Coast SIRI-VM (vehicle monitoring) feed, with the OperatorRef lines highlighted)

 

[markymark2000]

But there's also an OperatorRef field in that tracking data, which distinguishes between Bluestar and Morebus
(attachment shows a bit of the Go South Coast SIRI-VM (vehicle monitoring) feed, with the OperatorRef lines highlighted)

I've not seen that before.

The vehicles are still moved about though by users as/when it's seen fit. Though granted there could/should be something to improve the tracking and journey matching. I presume not helped by GoAhead having different references for the tracking for the route, and the timetable file for the route?

 

[M803UYA]

The only bits which can be user edited are the bus type, livery and features. Much of this is now done by a voting system so spam edits are less likely and are often found quickly and the user banned for persistent spam. Some higher up users can approve edits if they are correct/disapprove them if incorrect. The actual operator can only be edited by certain users and that doesn't change that much.

Thanks - glad I asked the question now.

 

[43055]

It's fair to say that Totton is nominally a Bluestar depot but runs journeys on a Salisbury Reds route (X7).

Meanwhile Lymington run Bluestar 6 (not infrequently with more branded buses).

Bus times gets confused at times between the Lymington to Southampton 6 run by Lymington but with Bluestar branded vehicles (but not all the time) and the Wimborne to Bournemouth 6 which is run out of Bournemouth depot.

It's all the same GSC licence.

Was the same with the Skylink between Nottingham and Loughborough until it was withdrawn recently. For some reason these journeys tracked under Kinchbus Skylink (Derby - Loughborough - Leicester). Wonder if it was down to having the same destination and brand? Some days you would also get someone editing the vehicles over to Kinchbus because of the incorrect tracking!

 

[father_jack]

It's gone all dark today !!!! Looks good and the location pin works better.

 

[ricoblade]

It's gone all dark today !!!! Looks good and the location pin works better.

I used it earlier to try a find a bus - turns out it wasn't being tracked but did turn up, despite disappearing off SCEM's app.

bustimes was its normal white self.

 

[Class 466]

It's gone all dark today !!!! Looks good and the location pin works better.

The map function seems a lot less laggy or jumpy on my phone now which is welcome!

 

[WelshBluebird]

It's dark for me too now. I suspect its looking at your systems dark or light mode setting and changing its theme based on that.

 

[father_jack]

It's dark for me too now. I suspect its looking at your systems dark or light mode setting and changing its theme based on that.

Changed phone mode and still dark. I am finding it harder now to touch on buses that are obscuring one another

 

[Class 466]

Seems to have switched back to light unfortunately and the map is back to lagging like mad on my phone in comparison to the updated UI.

 

[markymark2000]

Seems to have switched back to light unfortunately and the map is back to lagging like mad on my phone in comparison to the updated UI.

Use staging.bustimes.org for the updated UI.

For some it was ok, for others it was awful.

 

[father_jack]

Use staging.bustimes.org for the updated UI.

For some it was ok, for others it was awful.

Just used that alternative web address and clicking on an individual bus does nothing. Bus stops do work.

 

[Dai Corner]

Just used that alternative web address and clicking on an individual bus does nothing. Bus stops do work.

I'd suggest that that web address is for testing proposed changes before making them available publicly (or not). I wouldn't rely on it for normal use.

 

[Adtrainsam]

Personally, I find the original version a lot easier to use, less laggy and better UI. The new version was very laggy on my devices and I disliked the changes on individual vehicle pages and on the map. The only redeeming factor was dark mode, which was a very welcome addition.

 

[TuckerC21]

I want to change to Dark mode on my phone yet I have dark mode on my phone how can I?

 

[150249]

I want to change to Dark mode on my phone yet I have dark mode on my phone how can I?

The website will update in due course.

 

[ricoblade]

A slight aside but someone has posted on the UK Railway discussion forum about where Google Maps gets its (inaccurate) train data from and then the discussion goes on to where it gets its equally inaccurate bus data. I thought this thread might be the best place to find out.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/google-maps-train-data.253031/