CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Jez]

The 197s are all 2-car workings - at least one would have been a 3-car 175 previously.
On the other hand, there are a couple of doubled-up 175s (4/5-car) on peak Manchester trains.
With 3x197s operating, there will be 3x175s freed up for other services.
The 4-car 158 peak Manchester workings are still there.
No Mk4s to/from Cardiff, so 175s are substituting.

Good to see more 197s in service. I think Manchester to North Wales has 6 diagrams? So are the other 4 175s?

I see there was a 150 this morning on the 05xx Swansea to Manchester substituting a MK4!

Interesting that the Blaenau Ffestiniog is now a 150. Was this a 197 recently just to start them off on a quieter route or is it actually now booked 197 with a 150 substituting today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Knowing that the 197s were taking over on the Cambrian line definitely softened the blow of Smethwick Galton Bridge losing the TfW stops.

I much prefer the 196s from my little experience. I certainly wouldn’t want to spend an hour or more on a 197

I think it's much of a muchness. 196 has a nicer atmosphere, window alignment and better seats. 197 has a lot more legroom. Doesn't overly matter on the 196 as that's used on approximately one hour journeys. Massively matters on the 197 as it's used on long distance, in some cases 4+ hours, journeys.

Interesting that the Blaenau Ffestiniog is now a 150. Was this a 197 recently just to start them off on a quieter route or is it actually now booked 197 with a 150 substituting today.

They were started off there as delays have limited impact and it's easy to bustitute/taxi-stitute with very similar running times.

 

[Jez]

I think it's much of a muchness. 196 has a nicer atmosphere, window alignment and better seats. 197 has a lot more legroom. Doesn't overly matter on the 196 as that's used on approximately one hour journeys. Massively matters on the 197 as it's used on long distance, in some cases 4+ hours, journeys.



They were started off there as delays have limited impact and it's easy to bustitute/taxi-stitute with very similar running times.

So is the Blaenau branch still booked 197? With a 150 just substituting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So is the Blaenau branch still booked 197? With a 150 just substituting.

I don't know for certain now, will have to defer to others on that. However a 150/153 has substituted randomly over the past few weeks when either the 197 has failed or a member of staff working it doesn't sign them yet.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

So is the Blaenau branch still booked 197? With a 150 just substituting.

Booked 150 or 153 according to diagrams, when 197s are main traction in North Wales it will return to 197.

 

[Jez]

Thanks for confirming

 

[The_Train]

Anybody know when 197015 arrived into the hands of TfW please?

 

[CaergwrleKen]

It will be interesting to see if there is any reaction to the lack of seats on todays 2 car Llandudno diagrams..

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It will be interesting to see if there is any reaction to the lack of seats on todays 2 car Llandudno diagrams..

I wouldn't say it's a reflection on the trains themselves or TfW's intentions for their use, seeing as when they're all ready the diagrams (which will eventually run to Bangor instead of Chester of course) will all be 3, 4 and 5 carriages. That's far more than what can be said for what this service has been used to, which as well as the random selection of 2-175s sees more and more 150s and 158s too these days.

 

[Jez]

I've seen at least one comment on twitter about a 2 car 197 on Manchester Airport to Llandudno already being full by Warrington!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I've seen at least one comment on twitter about a 2 car 197 on Manchester Airport to Llandudno already being full by Warrington!

Sure, but I fail to see how this differs from the 2 car 175s on the route that are also usually full and standing, other than the fact it’s easier to get off on the new trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Good to see more 197s in service. I think Manchester to North Wales has 6 diagrams? So are the other 4 175s?

No, there's a regular 4-car 158 service in the morning peak (Holyhead-Airport and back).

All 3x197s out today seem to be keeping time, having completed several round trips so far (at 1415).

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Draft 2023 timetables

TfW have posted their planned timetables for late 2023 when it's hoped all the 197s should be in service.

Looks like the 197s will be replacing all of the 158s and 175s in North Wales. I knew the 175s are end of life but wasn't aware the 158s were going next year. I'm going to miss the refurbished 158s.

 

[Pinza48]

Anybody know when 197015 arrived into the hands of TfW please?

Arrived at Crewe 17th October

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Looks like the 197s will be replacing all of the 158s and 175s in North Wales. I knew the 175s are end of life but wasn't aware the 158s were going next year. I'm going to miss the refurbished 158s.

158s are a decade older than the 175s, and have had their lifecycle problems (corrosion, rubbish aircon, poor gangways etc).
The TfW units also have a different engine to most of the others (Perkins rather than Cummins).
Their ETCS capability might be of value to other operators (eg EMR on the ECML Grantham-Peterborough route).

 

[Kite159]

Sure, but I fail to see how this differs from the 2 car 175s on the route that are also usually full and standing, other than the fact it’s easier to get off on the new trains.

A 2 coach 175 has more seating than a 2 coach 197, especially with the number of seats lost to the cupboard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A 2 coach 175 has more seating than a 2 coach 197, especially with the number of seats lost to the cupboard.

The cupboard is a waste of space, but to be fair it is the same size as a small toilet, which the units do need. My one journey on a 197 so far proved why a single toilet on a TOC that doesn't have toilets at most stations is hopelessly inadequate. (Fortunately there was a suitable bush at Tal y Cafn - though if I'd been a woman I would have had a greater issue, which is why I see toilet underprovision not only as annoying, but also as potentially illegal discrimination on the grounds of age, sex and disability, the latter relating not so much to wheelchair users as those with e.g. Crohn's).

The main reason for lower capacity is wider doors and better disability provision, I reckon. That's a theme in most newer units, and not necessarily a bad one.

However 2-car 197s running alone is predictable and disappointing. Other than the Conwy Valley and Borderlands, it really should be a minimum of 3 other than in disruption. The same happened with Northern - there is basically nowhere where they currently run where 2-car units are a suitable solution - that won't happen until they end up on routes like Ormskirk-Preston and the Cumbrian Coast.

 

[absolutelymilk]

158s are a decade older than the 175s, and have had their lifecycle problems (corrosion, rubbish aircon, poor gangways etc).
The TfW units also have a different engine to most of the others (Perkins rather than Cummins).
Their ETCS capability might be of value to other operators (eg EMR on the ECML Grantham-Peterborough route).

Anyone know if the Sprinters in North Wales will be removed from service before the 175s?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Anyone know if the Sprinters in North Wales will be removed from service before the 175s?

I think the last tranche of 197s will be the ETCS-fitted units for the Cambrian, relacing the 158s there.
So I would have thought 158s will remain until the end of the 197 cascade process, while 175s might go earlier.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Arrived at Crewe 17th October

Do you happen to know when 005 and 006 arrived by any chance? Cheers

 

[Jez]

Looks like the 197s will be replacing all of the 158s and 175s in North Wales. I knew the 175s are end of life but wasn't aware the 158s were going next year. I'm going to miss the refurbished 158s.

I think the 158s are staying until 2024 as they will be needed for the Cambrian. They possibly wont turn up on other routes however.

I wonder if 153s/158s will still turn up to deputise for 197s on the Marches/North Wales coast even when the 175s have gone.

 

[Caaardiff]

The cupboard is a waste of space, but to be fair it is the same size as a small toilet, which the units do need. My one journey on a 197 so far proved why a single toilet on a TOC that doesn't have toilets at most stations is hopelessly inadequate. (Fortunately there was a suitable bush at Tal y Cafn - though if I'd been a woman I would have had a greater issue, which is why I see toilet underprovision not only as annoying, but also as potentially illegal discrimination on the grounds of age, sex and disability, the latter relating not so much to wheelchair users as those with e.g. Crohn's).

The main reason for lower capacity is wider doors and better disability provision, I reckon. That's a theme in most newer units, and not necessarily a bad one.

150's have run on the Blaenau branch for years with just 1 toilet on.

 

[Jez]

150's have run on the Blaenau branch for years with just 1 toilet on.

To be honest I dont think the Blaenau Branch is too much of an issue for a 2 car 197. I think its more on the longer distance routes where they run as 2 car that there could be issues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

150's have run on the Blaenau branch for years with just 1 toilet on.

Traditional "c**p on the track" toilets with manual doors are much more reliable than vacuum toilets with automatic doors.

Though the Blaenau branch isn't the biggest issue, it's things like the Cambrian where you have much longer journeys with a 2-car unit and very few station toilets available for a toilet stop.

To be honest I dont think the Blaenau Branch is too much of an issue for a 2 car 197. I think its more on the longer distance routes where they run as 2 car that there could be issues.

2-car units are fine on the Blaenau branch, yes, but not a single vacuum toilet with an automatic door, they're just not reliable enough.

 

[The_Train]

Arrived at Crewe 17th October

Thank you

Do you happen to know when 005 and 006 arrived by any chance? Cheers

I'd be interested in 005 as well.
My first record of 006 was it arriving at Donnington on (or around) 24/11/21

 

[Pinza48]

Thank you



I'd be interested in 005 as well.
My first record of 006 was it arriving at Donnington on (or around) 24/11/21

There's no record of 005 yet.
Agreed 006 arrived at Donnington 24/11/21

 

[william.martin]

Agreed 006 arrived at Donnington 24/11/21

I live a 5 min drive from Donnington, yes it did

 

[NewClee153]

Sure, but I fail to see how this differs from the 2 car 175s on the route that are also usually full and standing, other than the fact it’s easier to get off on the new trains.

I imagine the lack of seats due to the galley will make somewhat of a difference

I think the 158s are staying until 2024 as they will be needed for the Cambrian. They possibly wont turn up on other routes however.

I wonder if 153s/158s will still turn up to deputise for 197s on the Marches/North Wales coast even when the 175s have gone.

Presumably, this means the 197s won’t all be in service until 2024? Also, the Birmingham - Holyheads will have to be 158s, unless the interworking of the two routes stop

 

[6Gtraincrew]

197013 first day out today....Liverpool's

 

[EngFocus]

Anyone know which diagrams 197s will be working this week? Would like to experience one on the North Wales coast to see how they ride on decent CWR, as the ride on the Conwy Valley wasn't great.