CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[wobman]

I take it we won't be seeing 197s in passenger service on the Chester-Liverpool route in time for the December timetable change?

Is May next year an optimistic prediction for introduction on the Manchester to North and South Wales services?

I think December was being optimistic but maybe March if testing going to plan but definitely may is the main objective. There's been a few problems I've heard but nothing to serious.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I take it we won't be seeing 197s in passenger service on the Chester-Liverpool route in time for the December timetable change?

Is May next year an optimistic prediction for introduction on the Manchester to North and South Wales services?

I am guessing you would need to get at least one hundred staff, drivers and guards, trained on the class to get them into service.
Assume you release two instructor drivers and maybe four trainees a week (five days) leaving six holes in the roster most days, how many do you think could be trained ?

 

[craigybagel]

I am guessing you would need to get at least one hundred staff, drivers and guards, trained on the class to get them into service.
Assume you release two instructor drivers and maybe four trainees a week (five days) leaving six holes in the roster most days, how many do you think could be trained ?

It depends what route you're talking about. Just 1 unit on Chester Liverpool you could probably start off with a pool of 20 or so of each. Add in more units or longer routes and the numbers will start shooting up dramatically.

A 5 day course for drivers might also be optimistic. I'm pretty sure Northern got 7 for their 197s, and our 175s require 8 days.

The good news is, the period between Christmas and Easter is also the one where staff availability tends to be at it's highest, with few staff on annual leave.

 

[wobman]

I am guessing you would need to get at least one hundred staff, drivers and guards, trained on the class to get them into service.
Assume you release two instructor drivers and maybe four trainees a week (five days) leaving six holes in the roster most days, how many do you think could be trained ?

It's like most things on the railways it takes time, as tfw will need to run services aswell as the 197 training.
There is DIs plus CIs with the integration team on the tfw 197 testing and running over routes now, the 197 stop boards are being installed ready.

The rest of the DIs and CIs available be then trained on the 197s and then traincrew training will begin in the new year I've heard. The Liverpools are staying as they are to free up training paths for traincrew, as that's the first routes they will run over in service.

 

[Philip]

On the point of the Manchester to South Wales services; do current plans include any 197s to be used on this route, or will the loco hauled stock directly replace the 175s on all diagrams?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On the point of the Manchester to South Wales services; do current plans include any 197s to be used on this route, or will the loco hauled stock directly replace the 175s on all diagrams?

There isn't enough Mk4 stock to fully resource Manchester-South Wales, so some 158/175/197 working will be needed.
TfW still has to get the additional MK4 cars and sets into service.

 

[Llama]

A 5 day course for drivers might also be optimistic. I'm pretty sure Northern got 7 for their 197s, and our 175s require 8 days.

Yes the Northern full course for 195/331 was six days plus a practical assessment/passout. Then two more days for a conversion to the other class if required. Six days would have been about right, I'm not going to comment on whether the actual course content made the most of the days allocated, maybe the delays and cancellations speak for themselves, the practical handling content on the course was only ECS not in passenger service. I wish you luck.

 

[craigybagel]

On the point of the Manchester to South Wales services; do current plans include any 197s to be used on this route, or will the loco hauled stock directly replace the 175s on all diagrams?

Exact timetables haven't been announced yet, but at best there's only 4 sets available, and that's less than half what's required. A mixture of 197s and MkIVs is most likely. The diagrams are going to be different anyway as it's going to require a timetable change to have the MKIV services turning back at Swansea.

Yes the Northern full course for 195/331 was six days plus a practical assessment/passout. Then two more days for a conversion to the other class if required. Six days would have been about right, I'm not going to comment on whether the actual course content made the most of the days allocated, maybe the delays and cancellations speak for themselves, the practical handling content on the course was only ECS not in passenger service. I wish you luck.

Cheers. For what it's worth, I think some lessons have been learnt from the issues at Northern - sometimes there are advantages in not being the first users of new technology!

 

[Eccles1983]

The course is reduced due to the familiarity to 175's.

 

[sw1ller]

The course is reduced due to the familiarity to 175's.

Just don’t let Tim set the questions and we can get the course down to about 2 days! Sorted.

 

[Bob Price]

Just seen three units coupled together, 2x2 car and a three car passing the cameras at Crewe. Didn't get numbers but running on 391V from Crewe to Llandudno junction. This is on top of 197001 which headed there this morning.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Just seen three units coupled together, 2x2 car and a three car passing the cameras at Crewe. Didn't get numbers but running on 391V from Crewe to Llandudno junction. This is on top of 197001 which headed there this morning.

003, 004 and 101

 

[Bob Price]

This is a screenshot from Railcam which I shared to Twitter showing the monster train leaving Crewe. It has since come back and set out again. I am guessing the testing is ramping up as they have so many units delivered now.

 

[TravelDream]

On the point of the Manchester to South Wales services; do current plans include any 197s to be used on this route, or will the loco hauled stock directly replace the 175s on all diagrams?

Yes, there won't be enough Mark IVs to provide even half of the services so the 197s will provide the majority of services to Manchester.

I do wonder, and perhaps this is too speculative, about the loco stock though. My feeling is that they will migrate to the north-south route and there will be political pressure for this to happen.

 

[swissrailpassion]

This is a screenshot from Railcam which I shared to Twitter showing the monster train leaving Crewe. It has since come back and set out again. I am guessing the testing is ramping up as they have so many units delivered now.

Great photo Bob.

 

[Spirit555]

7 car 197 worked again this morning, 004, 003 and 101. Also one outside at Allerton (assume 002 ??).

Mark

 

[6Gtraincrew]

7 car 197 worked again this morning, 004, 003 and 101. Also one outside at Allerton (assume 002 ??).

Mark

Caught the multi at AGL earlier....

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think they look absolutely lovely. I can’t wait for them to serve Cardiff, controversial as the petty Fainsa seats and single toilet issues are.

 

[childwallblues]

Caught the multi at AGL earlier....

One at Allerton? What i

One at Allerton? What i

One outside Allerton? Are they going to be stabled there?

 

[Anonymous10]

One at Allerton? What i


One outside Allerton? Are they going to be stabled there?

One at Allerton? What i


One outside Allerton? Are they going to be stabled there?

i believe so as a temporary measure while the 175s are still at chester

 

[childwallblues]

197002 was at Allerton for maintenance I have been informed.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I also think it was a massive mistake ordering 77 diesel only 197s but that's a matter for another thread.

I assume this would be the appropriate thread to reply to the above comment (made on the class 231/756 thread).

I completely agree that ordering 77 diesel-only units was a massive mistake and cannot understand why more people don't seem to see this. If all 77 class 197s are built there will be 161 Civity DMUs on the GB network. That is more self-powered units than would be required if Network Rail's TDNS electrification plans were implemented in full:

• even if a grand total of ZERO hydrogen/battery units make it into passenger service, meaning that all unwired routes remain reliant on diesel, HVO or bio-diesel,
• and even if you are happy to run diesel under the wires

Quite simply, building the class 197 fleet in full is incompatible with implementing the TDNS proposals.

 

[TravelDream]

I completely agree that ordering 77 diesel-only units was a massive mistake and cannot understand why more people don't seem to see this. If all 77 class 197s are built there will be 161 Civity DMUs on the GB network. That is more self-powered units than would be required if Network Rail's TDNS electrification plans were implemented in full:

A DMU has an life of, what, 40 years? How likely is it the core 197 routes will be electrified in the coming decades?
SWML to Swansea - Reasonable
West of Swansea - Zero
The Marches - Very low
Cambrian Line - Zero
Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton - Very low.
North Wales Mainline - Very low.
Conwy Valley Line - Zero.

I would like to see many of these lines electrified, but it just realistically isn't going to happen. The 197 is fine for all of these routes (even if I would prefer more of the stunning Flirts that were on display today).

 

[XAM2175]

... cannot understand why more people don't seem to see this. ...

I'd suggest that a considerable number of us do see it, but don't see any real value in bringing it up again and again.

 

[childwallblues]

A DMU has an life of, what, 40 years? How likely is it the core 197 routes will be electrified in the coming decades?
SWML to Swansea - Reasonable
West of Swansea - Zero
The Marches - Very low
Cambrian Line - Zero
Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton - Very low.
North Wales Mainline - Very low.
Conwy Valley Line - Zero.

I would like to see many of these lines electrified, but it just realistically isn't going to happen. The 197 is fine for all of these routes (even if I would prefer more of the stunning Flirts that were on display today).

Agreed. In the North the only electrified routes that are used by TfW are Runcorn-Liverpool, Crewe-Manchester and Warrington Bank Quay-Manchester Airport.

 

[Neptune]

I'd suggest that a considerable number of us do see it, but don't see any real value in bringing it up again and again.

I concur.

 

[wobman]

Agreed. In the North the only electrified routes that are used by TfW are Runcorn-Liverpool, Crewe-Manchester and Warrington Bank Quay-Manchester Airport.

What about Wolves to Birmingham International and crewe to Birmingham via Stafford, there's real potential for Salop to wolves being electrified aswell as crewe to Chester. Personally I think a bi model unit would be better suited in the north instead of a DMU. It's a Shame that won't happen.

 

[Rhydgaled]

A DMU has an life of, what, 40 years?

Yes, 35 to 40 years. Which takes us to 2056 to 2061, well beyond the UK's net-zero carbon target. For that reason, I don't agree with your assessment of the likelyhood of electrification below (unless the planned class 197 fleet is completed, in which case electrification prospects will plummit and you are fairly close to the mark on most of these).

Here's a link to the summary version of Network Rail's interim decarbonisation strategy. If we assume that pathway 3 (net-zero by 2050) requires most of the recommended electrification to be completed by 2050, then (without the impediment of the Civity DMUs) I would guess that implementation of pathway 3 would result in the following likelyhoods of electrification (my comments in red and green).

How likely is it the core 197 routes will be electrified in the coming decades?
SWML to Swansea - Reasonable likely between 2030 and 2035
West of Swansea - Zero low chance of Swansea-Carmarthen between 2045 and 2050, very low (but non-zero) chance beyond Carmarthen before 2050, but reasonable chance after that
The Marches - Very low likely between 2040 and 2045
Cambrian Line - Zero Zero before 2050, very low possibility of partal electrification betweek 2050 and 2060 to allow battery rather than hydrogen units
Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton - Very low. likely between 2035 and 2045
North Wales Mainline - Very low. likely between 2035 and 2045
Conwy Valley Line - Zero. Zero

The 197 is fine for all of these routes

I disagree completely, passengers expect an improvement from new trains - in most respects the class 197s provide a lower standard of service than the class 158s and class 175s. I won't go until details again now.

 

[BayPaul]

Yes, 35 to 40 years. Which takes us to 2056 to 2061, well beyond the UK's net-zero carbon target. For that reason, I don't agree with your assessment of the likelyhood of electrification below (unless the planned class 197 fleet is completed, in which case electrification prospects will plummit and you are fairly close to the mark on most of these).

I really think we're past that point. These trains are contracted and under construction. They are going to be built. Cancelling the order now, stupid as it is to have new diesel trains coming, is just not going to happen.
Hopefully, the amount of electrification in the UK means they will have fairly short lives, and will be scrapped or subject to a massive rebuild in 20 years, but I am not all that optimistic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would be astonished if the North Wales Coast line was not electrified by soon after, if not before, HS2 phase 2 opens. There will be huge political fall-out from the North Wales services remaining on the classic line post HS2 - "why does Scotland get fancy trains when we don't?" sort of thing. There are 2 "spare" half-trains planned into the HS2 timetable, one of which could be an hourly North Wales 200m service if that did happen.

I think the end game of the Civities (all of them) is that they'll end up being the only remaining DMUs and deployed on branch lines, quite possibly significantly derated, geared down to say 50mph and burning some sort of biodiesel and with enhanced exhaust scrubbing fitted. If they were converted to 100% rapeseed biodiesel that's carbon neutral (to the extent anything is), and improved exhaust management tech could result in them literally only kicking out CO2.