CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[SuperLuke2334]

I think on Sundays the 1330 and 1430 ex Manchester are still booked Sprinters and I think one other diagram that is in the South for much of the time and does a later journey to Manchester. It cant go on too much longer if 150s are being phased out for train crew at the Crewe and Shrewsbury depots. They will have to be 197s.

They do seem to be very rare on the services that run to West Wales. Ones that start and end in Cardiff are the ones most likely to be subbed for a 150/153. For example the 1100ish from Milford to Manchester which unfortunately can throw up a 150 on the 1730 Manchester to Cardiff

But yes 90% of the time they are 197s as booked now. Mostly 2 car but 3 car is becoming more common on some services.

Im surprised to hear there are still 150s on the Cardiff terminating services, whenever ive checked RTT its been a 197 with only vary rare Sprinter coverage. i did see a pair of 153s one day this week on the 1630 ex Manchester but thats rare now.


Any news on when the Standard Plus upgrade will be available?

Also any news on when Maesteg and Cheltenham will start using 197s? Im not suggesting they should use 197s when there are so many short formations on the Marches as they should take priority, im just wondering if there is any progress with Maesteg-Cheltenham being cleared for 197 passenger service.


Seems to be mostly 2 car 197s on the service going from West to Cardiff in the hours before kick off. I suppose there isnt much they can do Rugby or not.

Interestingly the 1510 Swansea to Abergavenny is also a 2 car 197 today according to RTT. Its rare for this one to be a 197. (the full diagram starting with 0914 CDF-SWA is infact)

There's 2 extra services HFD - CDF, with a 3 car and 2 car 197 respectively.

A Mk4 set on 1V95 and hopefully 1W98.

 

[Lurcheroo]

There's 2 extra services HFD - CDF, with a 3 car and 2 car 197 respectively.

A Mk4 set on 1V95 and hopefully 1W98.

1V95 looking very full at Hereford. Shame neither of those services are a 5 car set. All in good time I suppose !

 

[Philip Roberts]

I think on Sundays the 1330 and 1430 ex Manchester are still booked Sprinters and I think one other diagram that is in the South for much of the time and does a later journey to Manchester. It cant go on too much longer if 150s are being phased out for train crew at the Crewe and Shrewsbury depots. They will have to be 197s.

They do seem to be very rare on the services that run to West Wales. Ones that start and end in Cardiff are the ones most likely to be subbed for a 150/153. For example the 1100ish from Milford to Manchester which unfortunately can throw up a 150 on the 1730 Manchester to Cardiff

But yes 90% of the time they are 197s as booked now. Mostly 2 car but 3 car is becoming more common on some services.

Im surprised to hear there are still 150s on the Cardiff terminating services, whenever ive checked RTT its been a 197 with only vary rare Sprinter coverage. i did see a pair of 153s one day this week on the 1630 ex Manchester but thats rare now.


Any news on when the Standard Plus upgrade will be available?

Also any news on when Maesteg and Cheltenham will start using 197s? Im not suggesting they should use 197s when there are so many short formations on the Marches as they should take priority, im just wondering if there is any progress with Maesteg-Cheltenham being cleared for 197 passenger service.


Seems to be mostly 2 car 197s on the service going from West to Cardiff in the hours before kick off. I suppose there isnt much they can do Rugby or not.

Interestingly the 1510 Swansea to Abergavenny is also a 2 car 197 today according to RTT. Its rare for this one to be a 197. (the full diagram starting with 0914 CDF-SWA is infact)

The TfW press notice announcing the new service to/from Newport on the Ebbw lines mentions new trains being introduced from the spring. I assume these will be 197s too?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The TfW press notice announcing the new service to/from Newport on the Ebbw lines mentions new trains being introduced from the spring. I assume these will be 197s too?

That really will be a kick in the teeth when a 150 trundles up on a Manchester service.

 

[craigybagel]

I think on Sundays the 1330 and 1430 ex Manchester are still booked Sprinters and I think one other diagram that is in the South for much of the time and does a later journey to Manchester. It cant go on too much longer if 150s are being phased out for train crew at the Crewe and Shrewsbury depots. They will have to be 197s.

AFAIK, all drivers at Crewe and Shrewsbury are still 150 competent, and they're still popping up often enough that that shouldn't be an issue just yet - competence lasts 6 months between drives. There certainly was talk of training stopping for new starters but I don't think that's happened yet.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

1V95 looking very full at Hereford. Shame neither of those services are a 5 car set. All in good time I suppose !

I really honestly have been trying to think more optimistically of late, but don’t you think it’s already been “good time?” These services are consistently packed and overcrowded, and we were supposed to have a consistent 5 carriage Marches service so long ago now.

 

[Lurcheroo]

AFAIK, all drivers at Crewe and Shrewsbury are still 150 competent, and they're still popping up often enough that that shouldn't be an issue just yet - competence lasts 6 months between drives. There certainly was talk of training stopping for new starters but I don't think that's happened yet.

Can confirm, my fellow course mates for Crewe and Holyhead have just completed their traction conversion for 150,153 and 158 and my Shrewsbury course mates are half way through.

I really honestly have been trying to think more optimistically of late, but don’t you think it’s already been “good time?” These services are consistently packed and overcrowded, and we were supposed to have a consistent 5 carriage Marches service so long ago now.

Yes definitely but what can you do ayy ? We are at the Mercy of TFW with it. I’ve been telling people for so long that things will get better and to hold on through a tough time, it’s been so long in honesty but it finally is feeling like we are getting there.

 

[Jez]

That really will be a kick in the teeth when a 150 trundles up on a Manchester service.

Hopefully by Spring more 197s will be introduced so all Manchesters at the very least can be 197s.

There certainly was talk of training stopping for new starters but I don't think that's happened yet.

Thats means they must be still expecting 150s to cover services on the Marches for quite some time. I can understand Shrewsbury as obviously 150s will still pop up as cover for 158s on Birmingham services as they wont have 197s yet and also there is the Heart of Wales to consider. But Crewe and especially Chester and Holyhead when there are no booked workings aside from those few Sunday ones to and from Manchester.

 

[craigybagel]

Can confirm, my fellow course mates for Crewe and Holyhead have just completed their traction conversion for 150,153 and 158 and my Shrewsbury course mates are half way through.

Thanks, thought as much. Slightly surprised they put HHD through 150 training but if you're already doing the other Sprinters it doesn't add a lot of extra time I suppose!

Thats means they must be still expecting 150s to cover services on the Marches for quite some time. I can understand Shrewsbury as obviously 150s will still pop up as cover for 158s on Birmingham services as they wont have 197s yet and also there is the Heart of Wales to consider. But Crewe and especially Chester and Holyhead when there are no booked workings aside from those few Sunday ones to and from Manchester.

Crewe have booked work on the Cardiff Manchester Sunday services, and 0610 Shrewsbury-Cardiff is still booked for a 150 on a Monday as well. 150s are also still occasionally turning up on Birmingham and Crewe - Shrewsbury local services, so it's good to keep up that flexibility. Like I said above, if you're learning the other Sprinters it's not much extra work to do 150s..

 

[L401CJF]

Thanks, thought as much. Slightly surprised they put HHD through 150 training but if you're already doing the other Sprinters it doesn't add a lot of extra time I suppose!


Crewe have booked work on the Cardiff Manchester Sunday services, and 0610 Shrewsbury-Cardiff is still booked for a 150 on a Monday as well. 150s are also still occasionally turning up on Birmingham and Crewe - Shrewsbury local services, so it's good to keep up that flexibility. Like I said above, if you're learning the other Sprinters it's not much extra work to do 150s..

Are 150s still knocking around on the Heart of Wales occasionally too?

There are still a lot of 2 car 197s on the North Wales-Manchesters, although the 4/5 car workings are very welcome when they run as booked. Given most of the none ERTMS 197s are already here and in use, it's hard to see how much extra capacity there will actually be in the long run- especially with so many off with faults.

 

[craigybagel]

Are 150s still knocking around on the Heart of Wales occasionally too?

They are indeed - I just didn't mention them as I was talking in the context of Crewe drivers. HOWL is exclusively Shrewsbury drivers at the Northern end.

There are still a lot of 2 car 197s on the North Wales-Manchesters, although the 4/5 car workings are very welcome when they run as booked. Given most of the none ERTMS 197s are already here and in use, it's hard to see how much extra capacity there will actually be in the long run- especially with so many off with faults.

Most of the 1st class 3 car sets are still to enter service, there's a fair bit of capacity to go yet.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are 150s still knocking around on the Heart of Wales occasionally too?

There are still a lot of 2 car 197s on the North Wales-Manchesters, although the 4/5 car workings are very welcome when they run as booked. Given most of the none ERTMS 197s are already here and in use, it's hard to see how much extra capacity there will actually be in the long run- especially with so many off with faults.

Only 40 out of 77 197s have entered service so far, and the MK4 availability is currently shoddy, so some are being short formed to cover those. Two 197s per day are also having to cover for the worthless 230s. When the MK4 availability is better and the remaining 37 (almost doubling the number of 197s in service right now) are in use, all will be glorious.

 

[meld3]

Only 40 out of 77 197s have entered service so far, and the MK4 availability is currently shoddy, so some are being short formed to cover those. Two 197s per day are also having to cover for the worthless 230s. When the MK4 availability is better and the remaining 37 (almost doubling the number of 197s in service right now) are in use, all will be glorious.

I've ridden on 41:-
001-021 (not 003)
042-051
101-112 (not 102,103), 115

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I've ridden on 41:-
001-021 (not 003)
042-051
101-112 (not 102,103), 115

Maybe I forgot to log 107 when I took it. Either way, one train really doesn’t weaken the point I’m making though, does it

Edit: I didn’t log 005 when I got that, yes 41.

 

[Jez]

I've ridden on 41:-
001-021 (not 003)
042-051
101-112 (not 102,103), 115

Yes it is 41 in service. Ive riden 34 so far and have another 7 (4 x 2 car and 3 x 3 car) to go until more come into service.

 

[sd0733]

I've ridden on 41:-
001-021 (not 003)
042-051
101-112 (not 102,103), 115

Those are all the serviceable ones at the moment although 197120 is planned to enter service on Monday.

There's only then 15 non-ertms to be accepted, 197102/103/113/114/116-119/121-126 plus 1 remaining non-ertms 2 car to come now for the mainline routes.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Given most of the none ERTMS 197s are already here and in use, it's hard to see how much extra capacity there will actually be in the long run

This is something I’ve thought about a bit but not worked out until now. Many people have said 21 ERTMS units isn’t enough or that they won’t provide to the rest of the network. Absolute worst case based on the planned hourly mainline and 2 hourly coast line services then if all mainline services were 4 cars (splitting at Mach for Pwllheli) then You would need 7 units. The coast line (let’s assume it’s summer and the 1 4 car a day is on the coast) then you would need 4 units. And let’s assume it just happens the be the hour where 2 of the services on the Birmingham stretch are Cambrian ones then you need another 4 units. This totals 15 of the 21 leaving another 6 to be out and about on other services or on maintenance.

 

[Cambrian359]

Those are all the serviceable ones at the moment although 197120 is planned to enter service on Monday.

There's only then 15 non-ertms to be accepted, 197102/103/113/114/116-119/121-126 plus 1 remaining non-ertms 2 car to come now for the mainline routes.

Will ertms units be used elsewhere on the network until they are used/needed on Cambrian line to Birmingham/shrewsbury services? ( when accepted )
Or will they remain stored even after acceptance?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Will ertms units be used elsewhere on the network until they are used/needed on Cambrian line to Birmingham/shrewsbury services? ( when accepted )
Or will they remain stored even after acceptance?

I believe it was mentioned way upthread that they’d enter service initially in a common pool with the standard /0s to allow 197s to replace 150s on former 170 routes - until the 231s are released from Rhymneys by the 756s (which in turn will be released from Pontypridds via 398s), and that date would coincide nicely with the start of 197 operation on the Cambrian.

 

[Caaardiff]

Match day in Cardiff today. Be interesting to see what formations are put on and if any extra seats are available, especially from west and north Wales.

Looking at RTT:
North - South pre-match
1V91 - 4 car 197
1V93 - 5 car 197
1V95 - Mark 4
1V96 - 4 car 197

South - North post match
1W65 - Mark 4
1W98 - Mark 4
1W26 - 4 car 150
1D68 - 4 car 197

Pretty good compared to what North Wales/Manchester usually gets on a match day!

 

[Diedinium]

Just want to point out that we've reached page 197 for the class 197 thread

 

[Lurcheroo]

Just want to point out that we've reached page 197 for the class 197 thread

WOOO 197

 

[meld3]

This is something I’ve thought about a bit but not worked out until now. Many people have said 21 ERTMS units isn’t enough or that they won’t provide to the rest of the network. Absolute worst case based on the planned hourly mainline and 2 hourly coast line services then if all mainline services were 4 cars (splitting at Mach for Pwllheli) then You would need 7 units. The coast line (let’s assume it’s summer and the 1 4 car a day is on the coast) then you would need 4 units. And let’s assume it just happens the be the hour where 2 of the services on the Birmingham stretch are Cambrian ones then you need another 4 units. This totals 15 of the 21 leaving another 6 to be out and about on other services or on maintenance.

A quick check of units that passed Welshpool last Friday did indeed show 15 different 158 Units.

 

[nwales58]

Absolute worst case based on the planned hourly mainline and 2 hourly coast ... totals 15 of the 21 leaving another 6 to be out and about on other services or on maintenance.

I have lost track of the plans. Is the eventual hourly just Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth shuttles or through to Birmingham International?
Edit: If the former, the Birmingham services currently inter-work with Holyhead (so the ETCS-equipped units spend a lot of time away from ETCS). Or will the timetable change to keep Cambrian-Birmingham units captive?

 

[craigybagel]

I have lost track of the plans. Is the eventual hourly just Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth shuttles or through to Birmingham International?
Edit: If the former, the Birmingham services currently inter-work with Holyhead (so the ETCS-equipped units spend a lot of time away from ETCS). Or will the timetable change to keep Cambrian-Birmingham units captive?

At the moment, nobody knows. Whatever the exact final plans are for the Cambrian and 197s, it's not public knowledge

 

[Lurcheroo]

A quick check of units that passed Welshpool last Friday did indeed show 15 different 158 Units.

That’s interesting! I was sort of taking a ‘snapshot in time’ of the most unit intensive possibility.

 

[Jez]

I believe it was mentioned way upthread that they’d enter service initially in a common pool with the standard /0s to allow 197s to replace 150s on former 170 routes - until the 231s are released from Rhymneys by the 756s (which in turn will be released from Pontypridds via 398s), and that date would coincide nicely with the start of 197 operation on the Cambrian.

I heard that about them going into the common pool. I hope they do or it could be a good few visits to Shrewsbury to get them!

I have lost track of the plans. Is the eventual hourly just Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth shuttles or through to Birmingham International?
Edit: If the former, the Birmingham services currently inter-work with Holyhead (so the ETCS-equipped units spend a lot of time away from ETCS). Or will the timetable change to keep Cambrian-Birmingham units captive?

I believe the plan was to have a Birmingham to Cambrian service hourly and the Holyheads would be separate to this but that may well have changed..

 

[nwales58]

I believe the plan was to have a Birmingham to Cambrian service hourly and the Holyheads would be separate to this but that may well have changed..

If so, Wrexham would be revolting. There is a substantial flow to the West Midlands.

The alternative of combining Holyhead and Aberyswyth portions at Shrewsbury, which happens occasionally during the day now, would be messy and more fragile.

 

[800301]

Was there any reason why they didn’t just fit ERTMS equipment to all of the 197’s? Sorry if I’m missing something obvious here

 

[Rhydgaled]

Was there any reason why they didn’t just fit ERTMS equipment to all of the 197’s? Sorry if I’m missing something obvious here

I don't think that has ever been officially answered - was it a cost-saving measure or are ETCS-fitted units somehow inferior if you don't have to have it? If I recall correctly they were originally expected to all be delivered with ETCS/ERTMS but that later changed for some reason (or perhaps there was a misunderstanding of the original announcement and it was only ever 21 ETCS-fitted units on-order).

If so, Wrexham would be revolting. There is a substantial flow to the West Midlands.

The alternative of combining Holyhead and Aberyswyth portions at Shrewsbury, which happens occasionally during the day now, would be messy and more fragile.

The Holyhead portion would have to be a non-ETCS unit otherwise the ETCS-fitted ones would still be going through to Holyhead and all 21 units would be occupied with the Cambrian duties, just as there was normally only 3 diagrams visiting south Wales out of the 24 ATW 158s. Also, if I recall correctly the round trip time from Shrewsbury to Birmingham International and back puts the unit from Holyhead on a service to Pwllheli when it goes back west (and vice versa) so to avoid sending ETCS-fitted units to Wrexham/Holyhead the train would have to be three units east of Shrewsbury (4-cars doing Aberystwyth/Pwllheli - Birmingham International plus a non-ETCS unit providing the Wrexham/Holyhead portion).