CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Kite159]

And I guess unlike other older rolling stock where 1st class area isn't suitable for customers in wheelchairs (Great Northern/Thameslink/Southern/SWR) they can get around the discrimination rules by using grandfather rights?

 

[Nick Ashwell]

And I guess unlike other older rolling stock where 1st class area isn't suitable for customers in wheelchairs (Great Northern/Thameslink/Southern/SWR) they can get around the discrimination rules by using grandfather rights?

It can be argued that operation efficiency provisions in the EA2010 allow them to get round it with older stock, before considering PRM etx

 

[BillStampy]

197003 has now jumped in following its faults yesterday, the unit is taking a nice day out to Blaenau tomorrow by the looks of it

 

[simonmpoulton]

Had a nice trip on 197033 today which was working Crewe to Chester earlier. Guessing it hasn't been in service long as it was all looking very new! Also had a trip on an 805 in the other direction and no competition the 805 rides better and the seats are better.

 

[Anonymous10]

Had a nice trip on 197033 today which was working Crewe to Chester earlier. Guessing it hasn't been in service long as it was all looking very new! Also had a trip on an 805 in the other direction and no competition the 805 rides better and the seats are better.

It was 197033's second day yesterday.

 

[M60lad]

Regarding Standard Plus I might be wrong but this isn't the first time a TOC has promised something only for them to withdraw it before its been introduced, I remember Northern saying that they were going to introduce I think it was Northern Connect (or whatever it was supposed to be called) which would introduce reservations onto some of their services in-fact some 158s had the systems fitted ready for the roll out and also all CAF trains were fitted with it but the idea was withdrawn hence why all CAF units have got the computerised seat number displays above the seats.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

A four car working the Cheltenham-Maesteg today (I'm currently on it)

Seems like a hell of a capacity waste

 

[Envoy]

A four car working the Cheltenham-Maesteg today (I'm currently on it)

Seems like a hell of a capacity waste

That 4 car that you are on went as a peak time service this morning from Cheltenham to Maesteg.

It may be quiet now in the middle of the day but when it goes back to Cheltenham from Maesteg it will be the 16.08 departure from Cardiff. It so happens that the 15.45 Cross Country departure from Cardiff to Nottingham has been cancelled and therefore, that 4 coach TfW 197 will be carry those passengers as well as those who intended to catch the 16.08 TfW service.

These constant cancellations by Cross Country of their Cardiff to Nottingham services must be a real headache for TfW as people will think it is their fault that trains are overcrowded. Dreadful that TfW gets the blame for another TOC’s shambolic staffing levels.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

That 4 car that you are on went as a peak time service this morning from Cheltenham to Maesteg.

It may be quiet now in the middle of the day but when it goes back to Cheltenham from Maesteg it will be the 16.08 departure from Cardiff. It so happens that the 15.45 Cross Country departure from Cardiff to Nottingham has been cancelled and therefore, that 4 coach TfW 197 will be carry those passengers as well as those who intended to catch the 16.08 TfW service.

These constant cancellations by Cross Country of their Cardiff to Nottingham services must be a real headache for TfW as people will think it is their fault that trains are overcrowded. Dreadful that TfW gets the blame for another TOC’s shambolic staffing levels.

Well that does make complete sense now it's been explained.

It's just worrying that a 153 pair is currently escaping to Manchester when TfW are having to cover for XC

 

[Envoy]

Well that does make complete sense now it's been explained.

It's just worrying that a 153 pair is currently escaping to Manchester when TfW are having to cover for XC

Yikes! Found it - a pair of 153’s going to Manchester and back to south Wales today. What’s more, it will be a peak time service from Manchester - that’s if this service gets to Manchester and is not turned around at say Wilmslow. So, here we are now at the end of November 2024 and things are still far from where they should be.

Realtime Trains | 1V58 1730 Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central | 21/11/2024

Real-time train running information for 1V58 1730 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central on 21/11/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[BillStampy]

Yikes! Found it - a pair of 153’s going to Manchester and back to south Wales today. What’s more, it will be a peak time service from Manchester - that’s if this service gets to Manchester and is not turned around at say Wilmslow. So, here we are now at the end of November 2024 and things are still far from where they should be.

Realtime Trains | 1V58 1730 Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central | 21/11/2024

Real-time train running information for 1V58 1730 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central on 21/11/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Atleast it isn't a 150!
My opinion is that a 150/153 should be just banned from Manchester usage, I'm sure that 150s are basically banned from going any further than Cardiff on a Manchester service these days (minus Sundays where one or two may sneak in)
The 4 car Maesteg showed up about 10 minutes after that departed too, unsure why but I'm sure that capacity will be of good use seeing how XC are having a fun time cancelling their services.

 

[Envoy]

Atleast it isn't a 150!
My opinion is that a 150/153 should be just banned from Manchester usage, I'm sure that 150s are basically banned from going any further than Cardiff on a Manchester service these days (minus Sundays where one or two may sneak in)
The 4 car Maesteg showed up about 10 minutes after that departed too, unsure why but I'm sure that capacity will be of good use seeing how XC are having a fun time cancelling their services.

Another factor must be that there is a tight turnaround time at Maesteg. If they use a slower train on the Cheltenham to Maesteg runs - such as a 150/3, there is a chance that it will run late and turnaround at Tondu leaving Maesteg people stranded.

 

[Krokodil]

These constant cancellations by Cross Country of their Cardiff to Nottingham services must be a real headache for TfW as people will think it is their fault that trains are overcrowded. Dreadful that TfW gets the blame for another TOC’s shambolic staffing levels.

Same issue in the North, certain Avanti trains had 50% cancellation rates at one point.

Atleast it isn't a 150!

I'd sooner have a 150. The door layout is more practical when the train is rammed.

 

[craigybagel]

Yikes! Found it - a pair of 153’s going to Manchester and back to south Wales today. What’s more, it will be a peak time service from Manchester - that’s if this service gets to Manchester and is not turned around at say Wilmslow. So, here we are now at the end of November 2024 and things are still far from where they should be.

Realtime Trains | 1V58 1730 Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central | 21/11/2024

Real-time train running information for 1V58 1730 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central on 21/11/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It's very rare for that to happen these days. Everything else today out of Manchester has been 67 or 197, and only 1 of those 197s all day has arrived and departed as a 2 car.

Atleast it isn't a 150!
My opinion is that a 150/153 should be just banned from Manchester usage, I'm sure that 150s are basically banned from going any further than Cardiff on a Manchester service these days (minus Sundays where one or two may sneak in)

150s are only allowed North of Newport with directors approval. Some of the depots in the north are already starting to lose competence

I'd sooner have a 150. The door layout is more practical when the train is rammed.

Indeed. Between the faster dwell times and their more favourable power to weight ratio, a 150 is a lot better at keeping time on a long distance trip than 2 x 153s. That said, the fact that these 153s went all the way from Milford to Manchester and only lost 5 minutes in total is pretty impressive on the part of the traincrew.

 

[Tom125]

I'm amazed it got that far with it being a discrimination issue. Telling a disabled person they can't buy something a service due to their disability, be it on board or a 1st class ticket, is discrimination.

Exactly, I know from personal experience with a family member in a wheelchair, we always used to book first class with a rail card because the carriage would likely be much quieter than standard and you wouldn’t have the embarrassment of having to squeeze in to a crowded carriage with a wheelchair. It’s quite staggering that no one in the TfW team thought that standard plus would have been a product attractive to disabled people. I admit myself until I traveled with someone in a wheelchair, as an abled body person you don’t realise just how difficult, awkward and embarrassing disabled travel can be!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yikes! Found it - a pair of 153’s going to Manchester and back to south Wales today. What’s more, it will be a peak time service from Manchester - that’s if this service gets to Manchester and is not turned around at say Wilmslow. So, here we are now at the end of November 2024 and things are still far from where they should be.

Realtime Trains | 1V58 1730 Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central | 21/11/2024

Real-time train running information for 1V58 1730 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central on 21/11/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Started back from Piccadilly 13 late, but at least it got there.

 

[BillStampy]

150s are only allowed North of Newport with directors approval. Some of the depots in the north are already starting to lose competence

That's what I was referencing! Couldn't pin it exactly off the top of my head, thanks for that.

Not entirely surprised about the North depots, they haven't really got many 150s at all, the odd one sneaks up there but it mostly remains as single 153s occassionally on SHR-CRE.

 

[vicbury]

That 4 car that you are on went as a peak time service this morning from Cheltenham to Maesteg.

It may be quiet now in the middle of the day but when it goes back to Cheltenham from Maesteg it will be the 16.08 departure from Cardiff. It so happens that the 15.45 Cross Country departure from Cardiff to Nottingham has been cancelled and therefore, that 4 coach TfW 197 will be carry those passengers as well as those who intended to catch the 16.08 TfW service.

These constant cancellations by Cross Country of their Cardiff to Nottingham services must be a real headache for TfW as people will think it is their fault that trains are overcrowded. Dreadful that TfW gets the blame for another TOC’s shambolic staffing levels.

It works both ways. I've been on absolutely rammed CrossCountry services on the same route with the guard making announcements blaming it on TfW cancelling their prior services. TfW are definitely no angels when it comes to cancellations between Cardiff and Cheltenham.

 

[Pete_uk]

Hope they still have plenty of capacity as I don't thing any more class 170 XC services will run between Notts and Cardiff tonight

 

[Jez]

It is very rare that a pair of 153s run from West Wales to Manchester these days (even turning up on the West Wales to Cardiff part is only occasionally now) but it probably makes sense to use them over a 150 given they are still used on the HOWL and Crewe Locals so still get used quite far north and the depots up there will still sign 153s. I cant remember the last time a 150 made it to Manchester or even SHrewsbury, apart from covering on HOWL services perhaps.

There must still be a massive shortage of 197s however especially as a few new ones have entered service this week. That particular service from Milford to Manchester does sometimes have a Sprinter but almost always gets swapped for a 197 at Cardiff.

 

[Envoy]

Well, I am pleased that the pair of 153’s made it to Manchester & back to the south. It is not a good situation to have now when we fully expected all trains on this route to be 5 coaches. I am sure that the general public don’t understand how this shortage on the main line of 197’s can be traced back to the delays in getting the Metro service up and running in south-east Wales. (197’s on the Maesteg to Cheltenham run when it really should be Class 231 FLIRT trains). However, it also sounds like a number of 197’s must be out of service with faults and of course, not all of this fleet has yet been delivered and accepted for service.

 

[Bikeman78]

It is very rare that a pair of 153s run from West Wales to Manchester these days (even turning up on the West Wales to Cardiff part is only occasionally now) but it probably makes sense to use them over a 150 given they are still used on the HOWL and Crewe Locals so still get used quite far north and the depots up there will still sign 153s. I cant remember the last time a 150 made it to Manchester or even SHrewsbury, apart from covering on HOWL services perhaps.

There must still be a massive shortage of 197s however especially as a few new ones have entered service this week. That particular service from Milford to Manchester does sometimes have a Sprinter but almost always gets swapped for a 197 at Cardiff.

150s still go up the Heart of Wales several times a week. By extension, that means they appear on the Crewe to Shrewsbury locals. 150217 went to Manchester a few weeks ago. Somehow it escaped the wrath of this forum! I saw a photo of it at Cwmbran posted on Facebook.

 

[WAB]

Atleast it isn't a 150!
My opinion is that a 150/153 should be just banned from Manchester usage, I'm sure that 150s are basically banned from going any further than Cardiff on a Manchester service these days (minus Sundays where one or two may sneak in)
The 4 car Maesteg showed up about 10 minutes after that departed too, unsure why but I'm sure that capacity will be of good use seeing how XC are having a fun time cancelling their services.

150s and 153s are only ever used on the Manchester runs if there are no mkIVs, 197s or 158s to run the service. The usual tactic is to set swap in Cardiff so 197s work east and 153s work west but that is often not possible.

 

[childwallblues]

197030 is on 1F91 Wrexham General to Liverpool Lime Street this morning

197033 is at Chester and will attach to 1V92 at 0820 to Cardiff Central with 197108.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I see 034 and 035 went to Mach yesterday. I can’t see anything on RTT but I passed them on P7 at Shrewsbury at around 13:30 and now they’re in the sidings at Mach.

 

[berneyarms]

Here they are:

Realtime Trains | 3Q51 1031 Crewe South Yard to Dovey Junction Down Loop | 21/11/2024

Real-time train running information for 3Q51 1031 departure from Crewe South Yard to Dovey Junction Down Loop on 21/11/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3Q52 1459 Dovey Junction Down Loop to Machynlleth | 21/11/2024

Real-time train running information for 3Q52 1459 departure from Dovey Junction Down Loop to Machynlleth on 21/11/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3Q54 1808 Dovey Junction Down Loop to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 21/11/2024

Real-time train running information for 3Q54 1808 departure from Dovey Junction Down Loop to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 21/11/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Lurcheroo]

Here they are:

Realtime Trains | 3Q51 1031 Crewe South Yard to Dovey Junction Down Loop | 21/11/2024

Real-time train running information for 3Q51 1031 departure from Crewe South Yard to Dovey Junction Down Loop on 21/11/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3Q52 1459 Dovey Junction Down Loop to Machynlleth | 21/11/2024

Real-time train running information for 3Q52 1459 departure from Dovey Junction Down Loop to Machynlleth on 21/11/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3Q54 1808 Dovey Junction Down Loop to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 21/11/2024

Real-time train running information for 3Q54 1808 departure from Dovey Junction Down Loop to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 21/11/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Thanks for that!

 

[Jez]

When travelling on 197124 between Cardiff and Hereford this morning I managed to get a seat in Standard Plus. The guard came through to check tickets and someone on another table queried about paying the upgrade. The guard told him they werent able to charge due to no accessible disabled toilet and how much money had been wasted doing the Standard Plus when it cant be used!

I assume the branding will be gone soon to avoid confusion? But I cant imagine they will remove the seats and put it like the other non standard plus 3 car sets, surely that would waste even more money for the sake of a few extra seats.

My journey back from Hereford was a 2 car 197 and I stood the entire way back to Cardiff, finally getting a seat after most people got off the train in Cardiff. The sooner we see the end of the 2 car trains on this route the better.

150s still go up the Heart of Wales several times a week. By extension, that means they appear on the Crewe to Shrewsbury locals. 150217 went to Manchester a few weeks ago. Somehow it escaped the wrath of this forum! I saw a photo of it at Cwmbran posted on Facebook.

Thanks. I didnt realise a 150 had been to Manchester so recently. I guess with it being such a rare thing now people are more likely to forgive the occasional use of a Sprinter more so than when they operated most Manchester-South Wales services for the best part of a year.

I think the major issue now is not so much Sprinters occasionally turning up but the overcrowding on the marches when still yet more 2 car trains turn up.

 

[BillStampy]

When travelling on 197124 between Cardiff and Hereford this morning I managed to get a seat in Standard Plus. The guard came through to check tickets and someone on another table queried about paying the upgrade. The guard told him they werent able to charge due to no accessible disabled toilet and how much money had been wasted doing the Standard Plus when it cant be used!

I assume the branding will be gone soon to avoid confusion? But I cant imagine they will remove the seats and put it like the other non standard plus 3 car sets, surely that would waste even more money for the sake of a few extra seats.

My journey back from Hereford was a 2 car 197 and I stood the entire way back to Cardiff, finally getting a seat after most people got off the train in Cardiff. The sooner we see the end of the 2 car trains on this route the better.

So the entire idea has been thrown out of the window as the accessible toilet is in the wrong part of the train? That's fun design.

Most trains from Manchester are now almost always 3+ cars, which is excellent. Some 2 cars are occassional but it's becoming more often 3 than 2 nowadays.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I think the major issue now is not so much Sprinters occasionally turning up but the overcrowding on the marches when still yet more 2 car trains turn up.

I saw a number of services at Shrewsbury today, 2 Cardiff - Holyhead’s both 2 cars and unpleasantly full, a MK4 going North which was certainly being well used but plenty of space left and a 3 car 197 going South which didn’t have any standing but did not have many seats left at all.