CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Jez]

There's 47 197 diagrams tomorrow, 26 197/0 2 car diagrams, 197 9 197/1 and 12 197/2 (standard plus), in practice that'll be 21 3 car and 26 2 car diagrams on paper.

Manchester services are all booked 5 car between 0627 and 1830, alternative Mk4 and 197 although a couple are already missing tomorrow, the 1930, 2030 are booked to split so a 3 and 2 car respectively.

For the other fleets diagrams look to be:
23x150s
17x153s
17x 158s
2x 230s
8x 231
3x 756

Thank you for the update and for also providing the diagram numbers for other fleets too.

Hopefully with there being 57/58 197s for 47 diagrams everything should be covered.

 

[WAB]

Does this bring an end to Sprinters on Ebbw Vale, Maesteg, Cheltenham workings or is it likely to see them still on those routes?

Ongoing fleet pressures and a need to keep mileage down on the 150s means I’d be surprised if they weren’t still regular visitors on these routes.

 

[sd0733]

Very helpful thank you

Does this bring an end to Sprinters on Ebbw Vale, Maesteg, Cheltenham workings or is it likely to see them still on those routes?

Not just yet, Cheltenham looks to be all 2 car 197 diagrams and Maesteg-Ebbw has the diagram coming ecs from Canton and starting at Maesteg at 0611 as a pair of 153s, the Newport-Ebbw shuttle is booked a single 153, the other 2 diagrams are 3 car 197 diagrams.

Obviously could still chop and change on the day as things go on but that's what's booked for now.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Many thanks as always for these very helpful updates @sd0733

 

[Bob Price]

A 3 car and 2 car on 1W13 just went past the Crewe cams. 5 cars on the Marches.

 

[The_Train]

Heading down to Wales this week to chase my final 150s. When I first planned this outing, I'd thought it would be easy LHCS haulage between the North West and South Wales but unless they magic some more 67/Mk4 sets off depot overnight tonight it's looking like it will be some very lengthy and very grim journeys between home and Wales this week

How do I pack a spinal board into a regular backpack?

 

[Bob Price]

According to the listings on Railcam it's 003 and 121.

 

[Caaardiff]

Heading down to Wales this week to chase my final 150s. When I first planned this outing, I'd thought it would be easy LHCS haulage between the North West and South Wales but unless they magic some more 67/Mk4 sets off depot overnight tonight it's looking like it will be some very lengthy and very grim journeys between home and Wales this week

How do I pack a spinal board into a regular backpack?

The mk4 situation is changing day by day so it's difficult to predict what will happen each morning.
Personally I find the 197 seats more comfortable than most other new stock seating.

 

[Jez]

Of the booked 5 car 197's on Manchester-South Wales looks like so far there has been

0730 - 4 cars to Swansea then 2 cars further West
0930 - 5 cars to Swansea then 2 cars further West
1130 - 2 cars throughout
1330 - currently planned as 3 cars throughout
1530 - currently planned 2 cars throughout
1730 - currently planned 4 cars to Swansea and 2 cars further West

So a bit of a mixed bag really today due to many 197s covering for MK4's and also 2 x 197 diagrams on Bidston when meant to be just 1 now.

 

[Broseley man]

Of the booked 5 car 197's on Manchester-South Wales looks like so far there has been

0730 - 4 cars to Swansea then 2 cars further West
0930 - 5 cars to Swansea then 2 cars further West
1130 - 2 cars throughout
1330 - currently planned as 3 cars throughout
1530 - currently planned 2 cars throughout
1730 - currently planned 4 cars to Swansea and 2 cars further West

So a bit of a mixed bag really today due to many 197s covering for MK4's and also 2 x 197 diagrams on Bidston when meant to be just 1 now.

Is there a specific problem with the loco hauled sets today?

 

[sd0733]

So a bit of a mixed bag really today due to many 197s covering for MK4's and also 2 x 197 diagrams on Bidston when meant to be just 1 now.

197s haven't really been great either with 4 less available than were required to cover their own diagrams. The sole 5 car this morning ran as a stock move to shift a 197 which failed on shed this morning.

Is there a specific problem with the loco hauled sets today?

Most of them being broken at depots is the main one. Even the ones that did eventually make it out didn't fare too well.

 

[Jez]

197s haven't really been great either with 4 less available than were required to cover their own diagrams. The sole 5 car this morning ran as a stock move to shift a 197 which failed on shed this morning.

And with at least 3 needed to cover MK4's and one covering a 230 they must have been at least 8 short in total. I noticed a couple of 150s covering Maesteg/Ebbw/Cheltenham services plus the booked pair of 153s you mentioned. But the others must have been short forms as didnt notice anything else missing that should be a 197.

 

[BillStampy]

And with at least 3 needed to cover MK4's and one covering a 230 they must have been at least 8 short in total. I noticed a couple of 150s covering Maesteg/Ebbw/Cheltenham services plus the booked pair of 153s you mentioned. But the others must have been short forms as didnt notice anything else missing that should be a 197.

These days I do love catching the odd 150 on Maesteg/Ebbw/Cheltenham; they suit the routes. Even if the trip to Cheltenham is a bit of a stretch, it is nothing in comparison to some services. 197s should be confined to where they are meant to and not to cover for services that can fit a sprinter.

 

[Jez]

These days I do love catching the odd 150 on Maesteg/Ebbw/Cheltenham; they suit the routes. Even if the trip to Cheltenham is a bit of a stretch, it is nothing in comparison to some services. 197s should be confined to where they are meant to and not to cover for services that can fit a sprinter.

I agree. Sprinters are much better on the likes of Maesteg and Ebbw Vale than being used on long distance services. However I think the issue is there arent enough Sprinters to cover all the Maesteg-Ebbw and Cheltenham with the 150s days now numbered and still needed on valley lines until the 398's come in. So unfortunately we are likely to see short forms on the long distance services until the 197s can move from Maesteg.

197s covering for MK4's and 230s are not helping either. At least Maesteg etc are booked workings for 197s at the moment. They arent meant to be on any MK4 diagram now and only 1 booked on Bidston but there appears to still be 2.

 

[WirralLine]

They've cancelled the 1843 Chester to Liverpool to nick the unit for another service tonight. Not great!

 

[sd0733]

197s covering for MK4's and 230s are not helping either. At least Maesteg etc are booked workings for 197s at the moment. They arent meant to be on any MK4 diagram now and only 1 booked on Bidston but there appears to still be 2.

Obviously the Mk4 ones aren't accounted for but the Bidston line seems to be a Short term plan (so far for this week only) for 2 197s so are already accounted for in the diagram numbers.

43 rather than the booked 47 seem to have made it out today but a few extra 2 cars and less 3 cars than booked.

197031 looks to have worked back to Chester and is in service on the Bidstons, first day i believe.

 

[childwallblues]

There were at least two Mk4 sets in the yard at ATC Crewe yesterday.

 

[tfw756rider]

197031 looks to have worked back to Chester and is in service on the Bidstons, first day i believe.

Thanks for the update Now 58 (out of 77) 197s have been in service (in unit number order):

1-2: 197001/002
3: 197003 (Cambrian unit "off-Cambrian")
4-21: 197004/005/006/007/008/009/010/011/012/013/014/015/016/017/018/019/020/021
22-24: 197030/031/033 (Cambrian units "off-Cambrian")
25-34: 197042/043/044/045/046/047/048/049/050/051
35-58: 101/102/103/104/105/106/107/108/109/110/111/112/113/114/115/116/117/118/119/120/121/122/124/125 (24 out of 26 3-car units)

So it's now 19 (out of 77) 197s that haven't yet been in service:

1-17: 197022/023/024/025/026/027/028/029/031/032/034/035/036/037/038/039/040/041 (Cambrian units)
18-19: 197123/126 (last two remaining 3-car units)

With the 9th 756 also entering service today (17/12/24), this means that 78 of TfW Rail's 148 brand new trains have now been in service (58 197s, 11 231s and 9 756s), with 70 still to enter service (19 197s, 36 398s and 15 756s).

 

[sd0733]

There were at least two Mk4 sets in the yard at ATC Crewe yesterday.

There's 4 there dotted round being battered back into life.

 

[Jez]

Good news that another 197 has entered services.

I notice with the new timetable, the 2 journeys that no longer run from Carmarthen to Cardiff, the unit terminating from Fishguard (2 car 197) seems to sit in Carmarthen for several hours. e,g 1000 from Fishguard arrives in Carmarthen at 1053 and instead of continuing east to Cardiff stays there until forming the 1545 to Milford Haven. It happens 2 hours earlier as well.

I would assume it is cheaper just to leave the 197 in Carmarthen there rather than run it in service somewhere with costs of fuel and train crew etc. Afterall the 2 Cardiff-Carmarthen journeys each way were withdrawn as apparently it duplicated the GWR services to/from Carmarthen. It just seems a bit unusual that 2 units do nothing for quite a few hours given the shortage.

 

[WirralLine]

197031 has suffered a fault of some sort - as a result a number of Bidstons are cancelled including the last 2 round trips of the day.

 

[sd0733]

197031 has suffered a fault of some sort - as a result a number of Bidstons are cancelled including the last 2 round trips of the day.

Not a very successful day for the ERTMS sets, 197030 and 007 also failed at Leominster, terminated and ran ecs to Shrewsbury half an hour later.

 

[BenBracken]

Was on 007 this morning as far as Swansea. Toilet out of order despite the efforts of a fitter who boarded at Carmarthen. It kept having to stop to let people off to use the loo. The guard thought it was disgraceful to send it up to Manchester like that and presumed it would be swapped at Cardiff and taken out of service so I’m surprised to see it going as far as Leominster. The fault was with the door, either a sensor or motor, is this a common one that affects them regularly?

 

[WirralLine]

The fault was with the door, either a sensor or motor, is this a common one that affects them regularly?

Yes very common

 

[40029 Saxonia]

197031 has suffered a fault of some sort - as a result a number of Bidstons are cancelled including the last 2 round trips of the day.

Was on 197031 to Wrexham. The driver reported a fault apparently, the guard wasn't sure what the issue was and phoned to check whether the train would terminate at Wrexham General or go to Central as planned. It did terminate at General - not sure what the problem was as there was nothing obviously wrong with 031.

 

[Rhydgaled]

2 Cardiff-Carmarthen journeys each way were withdrawn as apparently it duplicated the GWR services to/from Carmarthen. It just seems a bit unusual that 2 units do nothing for quite a few hours given the shortage.

Not exactly duplication as the wait in Carmarthen for the GWR service is extended compared to the previous TfW connection*. Very odd to have withdrawn those TfW trains between Carmarthen and Swansea/Cardiff since, at the same time, several services from Cardiff/Swansea/Manchester that previously terminated at Carmarthen are now extended into Pembs. in the new timetable. Based on RealTimeTrains data for 8th Jan 2025, there are no TfW services from Llanelli terminating at Carmarthen during the day at all. Only the late trains (those reaching Carmarthen after 8pm) terminate now. Similarly, the 06:52 from Carmarthen to Cardiff is now the only TfW eastbound train** starting from Carmarthen, the rest run through from Pembrokeshire. The only daytime TfW services that start/terminate at Carmarthen are now therefore those to/from Pembs., a far cry from the days of a Manchester-Carmarthen service every two hours.

* pretty sure at least one was a terminating service from Fishguard anyway (the unit from which then went on to work a Pembroke Dock service) with a TfW connection from Carmarthen to Manchester/Cardiff just a few minutes later which has now been withdrawn leaving a longer wait for the GWR train
** there are also some earlier morning services, but these are shown as replacement road transport

Was on 007 this morning as far as Swansea. Toilet out of order despite the efforts of a fitter who boarded at Carmarthen. It kept having to stop to let people off to use the loo.

Aren't Haverfordwest and Carmarthen (plus maybe Llanelli) the only stations on that route (before Swansea) with toilets? Not really many options for letting people off for a toilet stop.

I’m surprised to see it going as far as Leominster. The fault was with the door, either a sensor or motor, is this a common one that affects them regularly?

Was that door fault the toilet issue or the fault which caused the service to be terminated at Leominster? RealTimeTrains suggests "This service was cancelled between Leominster and Manchester Piccadilly due to a problem with the brakes (MN)" so the part-cancellation was possibly unrelated to the toilet issue?

 

[craigybagel]

Was that door fault the toilet issue or the fault which caused the service to be terminated at Leominster? RealTimeTrains suggests "This service was cancelled between Leominster and Manchester Piccadilly due to a problem with the brakes (MN)" so the part-cancellation was possibly unrelated to the toilet issue?

It was cancelled because of a brake fault, the toilet issues were unrelated. It needs to be a serious issue to cause a cancellation at a place with limited facilities like Leominster.

 

[Anonymous10]

Not exactly duplication as the wait in Carmarthen for the GWR service is extended compared to the previous TfW connection*. Very odd to have withdrawn those TfW trains between Carmarthen and Swansea/Cardiff since, at the same time, several services from Cardiff/Swansea/Manchester that previously terminated at Carmarthen are now extended into Pembs. in the new timetable. Based on RealTimeTrains data for 8th Jan 2025, there are no TfW services from Llanelli terminating at Carmarthen during the day at all. Only the late trains (those reaching Carmarthen after 8pm) terminate now. Similarly, the 06:52 from Carmarthen to Cardiff is now the only TfW eastbound train** starting from Carmarthen, the rest run through from Pembrokeshire. The only daytime TfW services that start/terminate at Carmarthen are now therefore those to/from Pembs., a far cry from the days of a Manchester-Carmarthen service every two hours.

* pretty sure at least one was a terminating service from Fishguard anyway (the unit from which then went on to work a Pembroke Dock service) with a TfW connection from Carmarthen to Manchester/Cardiff just a few minutes later which has now been withdrawn leaving a longer wait for the GWR train
** there are also some earlier morning services, but these are shown as replacement road transport


Aren't Haverfordwest and Carmarthen (plus maybe Llanelli) the only stations on that route (before Swansea) with toilets? Not really many options for letting people off for a toilet stop.


Was that door fault the toilet issue or the fault which caused the service to be terminated at Leominster? RealTimeTrains suggests "This service was cancelled between Leominster and Manchester Piccadilly due to a problem with the brakes (MN)" so the part-cancellation was possibly unrelated to the toilet issue?

There's a public wc right by Pembrey and burryport station.

 

[Jez]

Not exactly duplication as the wait in Carmarthen for the GWR service is extended compared to the previous TfW connection*. Very odd to have withdrawn those TfW trains between Carmarthen and Swansea/Cardiff since, at the same time, several services from Cardiff/Swansea/Manchester that previously terminated at Carmarthen are now extended into Pembs. in the new timetable. Based on RealTimeTrains data for 8th Jan 2025, there are no TfW services from Llanelli terminating at Carmarthen during the day at all. Only the late trains (those reaching Carmarthen after 8pm) terminate now. Similarly, the 06:52 from Carmarthen to Cardiff is now the only TfW eastbound train** starting from Carmarthen, the rest run through from Pembrokeshire. The only daytime TfW services that start/terminate at Carmarthen are now therefore those to/from Pembs., a far cry from the days of a Manchester-Carmarthen service every two hours.

I agree with you but the reason TFW gave was due to duplication with GWR. It nice to see more services for Haverfordwest and Milford plus Pembroke Dock services extended to Cardiff however it does seem rather odd to withdraw these Carmarthen-Cardiff services.

I notice on a Saturday they have kept them which is sensible knowing how busy services are into Cardiff on Saturdays.

Another change is the Fishguard-Cardiff via the district line which was an 'extra' service from West Wales to Cardiff calling at Llanelli, Port Talbot and Bridgend. The Fishguard now becomes part of the 2 hourly West Wales-Manchester working.

 

[BenBracken]

The guard said the only toilet options were Carmarthen, Llanelli and Swansea. The extra services to Milford are very welcome. It appears that and up and down services now cross at Hwest? Does that mean Platform 2 in use now for the first time in many years? We were held at Clarby for 10 minutes as the up was delayed and we were a bit late, so I’m guessing Hwest is where the passing is designed to happen?