CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Topological]

Am I missing something? There's a number of 4 and 5 car services out today.
Only 4 services are 2 cars, with 1V62 likely to have the 153 replaced before it leaves Cardiff. With the 1930 and 2030 arriving as a 4 car to split as usual.

All trains are supposed to be 5. So from the start of the day

1V33 (should be Mk4) was reported to be a pair of 153s
1V35 (should be 2+3) is 2
1V37 Mk4 as planned
1V38 (should be 2+3) is 2+2
1V39 Mk4 as planned
1V40 (should be 2+3) is 3
1V42 (should be Mk4) is 2
1V44 (should be 2+3) is 2+2
1V46 Mk4 as planned
1V48 2+3 as planned
1V50 Mk4 as planned
1V58 (should be 2+3) is 3
1V62 (should be Mk4) is 2

The final two trains are not booked as 3+2 and actually split from a 3+2 from Cardiff. It looks like the 3+2 is only 2+2 today.

That's a long way short of what is planned.

No doubt there are subtle "plan" changes like used to happen with 1V37 (1W13 from Swansea) showing as a Mk4 in the public facing timetables but planned to be a unit. Maybe 2+2 is the plan instead of 2+3?

 

[sd0733]

Yesterday was much better with quite a few 5 cars on the Swansea to Manchesters.

However yesterday due to the lack of services on the valleys there were many spare sprinters to help to cover the likes of Swanline- Pembroke Dock in order to keep 5 car 197s on the longer distance Manchester route.

There's 7 197s short today, 4 are swapped to other traction or shortformed, 3 are 2 cars running in 3 car diagrams. AFAIK so far there's been a 0% success rate since the timetable change of having enough 197s available to cover their diagrams.

The 5 car Manchester has certainly been prioritised with West Wales, Cheltenham etc seeing more 15x substituting.

 

[Caaardiff]

All trains are supposed to be 5. So from the start of the day

1V33 (should be Mk4) was reported to be a pair of 153s
1V35 (should be 2+3) is 2
1V37 Mk4 as planned
1V38 (should be 2+3) is 2+2
1V39 Mk4 as planned
1V40 (should be 2+3) is 3
1V42 (should be Mk4) is 2
1V44 (should be 2+3) is 2+2
1V46 Mk4 as planned
1V48 2+3 as planned
1V50 Mk4 as planned
1V58 (should be 2+3) is 3
1V62 (should be Mk4) is 2

The final two trains are not booked as 3+2 and actually split from a 3+2 from Cardiff. It looks like the 3+2 is only 2+2 today.

That's a long way short of what is planned.

No doubt there are subtle "plan" changes like used to happen with 1V37 (1W13 from Swansea) showing as a Mk4 in the public facing timetables but planned to be a unit. Maybe 2+2 is the plan instead of 2+3?

I think it's being a bit pedantic given the well known about 197 issues. I would agree that a 2 car on any Manchester service is a failure, but a 3 car is acceptable, and 4 and 5 cars is what is rightly needed. 4 cars is more than sufficient, so still having 2 units on a service as 2+2 instead of 2+3 is perfectly acceptable. Having a 2+2 on Manchester services means the 3 cars can work other services which are a single unit but require the capacity of 3 carriages.

 

[Topological]

I think it's being a bit pedantic given the well known about 197 issues. I would agree that a 2 car on any Manchester service is a failure, but a 3 car is acceptable, and 4 and 5 cars is what is rightly needed. 4 cars is more than sufficient, so still having 2 units on a service as 2+2 instead of 2+3 is perfectly acceptable. Having a 2+2 on Manchester services means the 3 cars can work other services which are a single unit but require the capacity of 3 carriages.

Today is a failure. It does not help that 197s are being taken to cover the Mk4 fleet as well. I agree 2+2 is pedantic, but it equally needs documenting to give a fair comparison for others. It is only the 2 that is the real failing.

A 3-car on a busy time, like the peaks from Manchester, is also a failure. However, I sympathise with TfW on that because there should be suitable Northern services to take people to Wilmslow and Crewe (the 2 stations where so many of the passengers on the TfW seem to go) and then the rest of the journey south is ok for a 3-car

Hoepfully, things will sort themselves out with the Cardiff Metro fleets and then the 197s can get back to their own booked turns,

 

[sd0733]

All trains are supposed to be 5. So from the start of the day

1V33 (should be Mk4) was reported to be a pair of 153s
1V35 (should be 2+3) is 2
1V37 Mk4 as planned
1V38 (should be 2+3) is 2+2
1V39 Mk4 as planned
1V40 (should be 2+3) is 3
1V42 (should be Mk4) is 2
1V44 (should be 2+3) is 2+2
1V46 Mk4 as planned
1V48 2+3 as planned
1V50 Mk4 as planned
1V58 (should be 2+3) is 3
1V62 (should be Mk4) is 2

The diagrams are completely different this week, capacity has been moved around and not as many Manchesters were booked 5 car 197s so werent going to be. There's still overnight work affecting things too.

The actual state of play for today has been:
1V33 (should be Mk4) 2x153 so Shortformed by 3
1V35 is 2 as booked today
1V37 Mk4 as planned
1V38 (should be 2+3) is 2+2 so shortformed by 1
1V39 Mk4 as planned
1V40 is 3 car as booked
1V42 is 2 car as booked
1V44 is booked as 2 car but ran as a 4 so 2 overformed.
1V46 Mk4 as planned
1V48 2+3 as planned
1V50 Mk4 as planned
1V58 booked as 2 but running as 3 so 1 car over booked
1V62 (should be Mk4) is 2x153 so Shortformed by 3.

Id personally agree that 2 cars shouldn't be booked solo to Manchester but ad-hoc strenthening has been done where possible, there were a couple of short forms and a Mk4 diagram short caused by a very late notice fault it's far from a total day of short forms more 197 carriages have run to Manchester than were actually booked and none were missing whole units.

 

[Topological]

The diagrams are completely different this week, capacity has been moved around and not as many Manchesters were booked 5 car 197s so werent going to be. There's still overnight work affecting things too.

The actual state of play for today has been:
1V33 (should be Mk4) 2x153 so Shortformed by 3
1V35 is 2 as booked today
1V37 Mk4 as planned
1V38 (should be 2+3) is 2+2 so shortformed by 1
1V39 Mk4 as planned
1V40 is 3 car as booked
1V42 is 2 car as booked
1V44 is booked as 2 car but ran as a 4 so 2 overformed.
1V46 Mk4 as planned
1V48 2+3 as planned
1V50 Mk4 as planned
1V58 booked as 2 but running as 3 so 1 car over booked
1V62 (should be Mk4) is 2x153 so Shortformed by 3.

Id personally agree that 2 cars shouldn't be booked solo to Manchester but ad-hoc strenthening has been done where possible, there were a couple of short forms and a Mk4 diagram short caused by a very late notice fault it's far from a total day of short forms more 197 carriages have run to Manchester than were actually booked and none were missing whole units.

Thanks for the updated diagrams.

This is a funny week. Though I really do not see how the 153s ended up doing a second Manchester to Cardiff run.

Hopefully the bookings will be closer to the timetable once we get back into normal working weeks.

 

[Jez]

There's 7 197s short today, 4 are swapped to other traction or shortformed, 3 are 2 cars running in 3 car diagrams. AFAIK so far there's been a 0% success rate since the timetable change of having enough 197s available to cover their diagrams.

The 5 car Manchester has certainly been prioritised with West Wales, Cheltenham etc seeing more 15x substituting.

Having so many short isnt great. But its good they are prioritising the Marches over the likes of Swanline/Maesteg-Ebbw and Cheltenham.

Hopefully things will improve before the Sprinters go as they wont have them to fall back on. Either that or 197s being released from the routes which should be 231's. Otherwise we could see many short forms on the Marches.

The diagrams are completely different this week, capacity has been moved around and not as many Manchesters were booked 5 car 197s so werent going to be. There's still overnight work affecting things too.

The actual state of play for today has been:
1V33 (should be Mk4) 2x153 so Shortformed by 3
1V35 is 2 as booked today
1V37 Mk4 as planned
1V38 (should be 2+3) is 2+2 so shortformed by 1
1V39 Mk4 as planned
1V40 is 3 car as booked
1V42 is 2 car as booked
1V44 is booked as 2 car but ran as a 4 so 2 overformed.
1V46 Mk4 as planned
1V48 2+3 as planned
1V50 Mk4 as planned
1V58 booked as 2 but running as 3 so 1 car over booked
1V62 (should be Mk4) is 2x153 so Shortformed by 3.

Id personally agree that 2 cars shouldn't be booked solo to Manchester but ad-hoc strenthening has been done where possible, there were a couple of short forms and a Mk4 diagram short caused by a very late notice fault it's far from a total day of short forms more 197 carriages have run to Manchester than were actually booked and none were missing whole units.

Thanks for posting the update. Hopefully they can all return to booked 5 car next week when things get back to normal after the Christmas/New Year fortnight.

Even if they cant all run as 5 cars and some are 2+2 or 3 it would be good to see them all booked as 5 cars so the intention is there to run 5 cars.

I do understand and sympathise with the situation TFW have with so many 197s out of service but its good to keep up to date with whats happening.

 

[sd0733]

Thanks for the updated diagrams.

This is a funny week. Though I really do not see how the 153s ended up doing a second Manchester to Cardiff run.

Hopefully the bookings will be closer to the timetable once we get back into normal working weeks.

It certainly is a very strange week plans/loadings wise.
153s are an extreme dire straits for a Manchester now so there can't have been anything left on Canton to form it, it's a different pair to this morning too.

The work around Crewe ceases to affect TfW tonight so the normal diagrams look to restart tomorrow with everything back to being booked 5 cars.

 

[Jez]

This is a funny week. Though I really do not see how the 153s ended up doing a second Manchester to Cardiff run.

Hopefully the bookings will be closer to the timetable once we get back into normal working weeks.

Id guess the pair of 153s ran as there was no other alternative other than to cancel the train entirely.

Yes hopefully next week we should have a better idea.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Is it still 21 units (197003 and 197022–197041) that are fitted with ETCS? I'm asking because I vaugely recall there being something non-standard about 197004, or something about a trial of moving ETCS equipment from one unit to another.

 

[43055]

All trains are supposed to be 5. So from the start of the day

1V33 (should be Mk4) was reported to be a pair of 153s
1V35 (should be 2+3) is 2
1V37 Mk4 as planned
1V38 (should be 2+3) is 2+2
1V39 Mk4 as planned
1V40 (should be 2+3) is 3
1V42 (should be Mk4) is 2
1V44 (should be 2+3) is 2+2
1V46 Mk4 as planned
1V48 2+3 as planned
1V50 Mk4 as planned
1V58 (should be 2+3) is 3
1V62 (should be Mk4) is 2

The final two trains are not booked as 3+2 and actually split from a 3+2 from Cardiff. It looks like the 3+2 is only 2+2 today.

That's a long way short of what is planned.

No doubt there are subtle "plan" changes like used to happen with 1V37 (1W13 from Swansea) showing as a Mk4 in the public facing timetables but planned to be a unit. Maybe 2+2 is the plan instead of 2+3?

Having traveled on 1W14 which formed 1V40 this morning, the 3 car (2.5 by the time you take off the first class section) was acceptable. Busy but still had seats spare.

 

[Jez]

Speaking of the first class section (or rather Standard Plus) has a decision been made not to go ahead with this? I ask as I heard a conductor the other day telling another passenger that there was no need to pay the upgrade as SP was no longer happening.

I know it was talked about a few months back on this forum that it wasnt going ahead but is this official now? Its been a year since the first SP set came into service. It does seem an awful waste of space if it isnt going to be used for its intended purpose.

 

[Anonymous10]

Today is a failure. It does not help that 197s are being taken to cover the Mk4 fleet as well. I agree 2+2 is pedantic, but it equally needs documenting to give a fair comparison for others. It is only the 2 that is the real failing.

A 3-car on a busy time, like the peaks from Manchester, is also a failure. However, I sympathise with TfW on that because there should be suitable Northern services to take people to Wilmslow and Crewe (the 2 stations where so many of the passengers on the TfW seem to go) and then the rest of the journey south is ok for a 3-car

Hoepfully, things will sort themselves out with the Cardiff Metro fleets and then the 197s can get back to their own booked turns,

Worth remembering as bad as it is. Its a massive improvement over the 175s for capacity as they never ran in double. It's not helped 197s are covering the ebbw Vale- Maesteg and Cheltenham services.

 

[BillStampy]

Worth remembering as bad as it is. Its a massive improvement over the 175s for capacity as they never ran in double. It's not helped 197s are covering the ebbw Vale- Maesteg and Cheltenham services.

Had an entire coach to myself earlier today aboard a 3 coach 197 to Cheltenham...

Realistically should be a sprinter, such as the 2x 153s that wondered onto Manchester's...

 

[RailWonderer]

Worth remembering as bad as it is. Its a massive improvement over the 175s for capacity as they never ran in double. It's not helped 197s are covering the ebbw Vale- Maesteg and Cheltenham services.

There were regular diagrammed 4 car 175s on Manchester - Cardiff. I caught them a few times in recent years (how often they were shortformed though I can't say).

 

[craigybagel]

There were regular diagrammed 4 car 175s on Manchester - Cardiff. I caught them a few times in recent years (how often they were shortformed though I can't say).

Not within the last decade there wasn't. There was a daily Manchester - Chester booked for 2 175/0, but nothing from Manchester along the Marches.

 

[RailWonderer]

Not within the last decade there wasn't. There was a daily Manchester - Chester booked for 2 175/0, but nothing from Manchester along the Marches.

Maybe TfW just did frequent substitutions.

 

[berneyarms]

Speaking of the first class section (or rather Standard Plus) has a decision been made not to go ahead with this? I ask as I heard a conductor the other day telling another passenger that there was no need to pay the upgrade as SP was no longer happening.

I know it was talked about a few months back on this forum that it wasnt going ahead but is this official now? Its been a year since the first SP set came into service. It does seem an awful waste of space if it isnt going to be used for its intended purpose.

This has already been discussed further back in the thread.

Unbelivably no provision for disabled passengers was made in that section, and they’ve now abandoned it presumably for fear of a legal case under equality legislation.

 

[Jez]

This has already been discussed further back in the thread.

Unbelivably no provision for disabled passengers was made in that section, and they’ve now abandoned it presumably for fear of a legal case under equality legislation.

I remember it being discussed but I wondered if TFW had officially made an announcement it would no longer be happening. It does seem to still be branded as Standard Plus on board but i suppose removing this will take time.

 

[WirralLine]

I remember it being discussed but I wondered if TFW had officially made an announcement it would no longer be happening. It does seem to still be branded as Standard Plus on board but i suppose removing this will take time.

It is to be removed in the future, but not a priority at the moment. The issue now is lots of people won't sit in standard plus as they think it's upgrade only!

 

[iceolate]

I remember it being discussed but I wondered if TFW had officially made an announcement it would no longer be happening. It does seem to still be branded as Standard Plus on board but i suppose removing this will take time.

As close to an official confirmation I can find is the "Standard Plus" page on the TfW website has been removed and redirects to a generic ticket page now, see https://tfw.wales/ways-to-travel/rail/ticket-types/standard-plus

 

[Jez]

As close to an official confirmation I can find is the "Standard Plus" page on the TfW website has been removed and redirects to a generic ticket page now, see https://tfw.wales/ways-to-travel/rail/ticket-types/standard-plus

Thanks. Looks like they have stopped promoting it at least.

On the subject of 5 cars on the 197 services from Manchester to South Wales I noticed yesterday quite a few were either 2 or 4 cars. Was it yesterday they were supposed to return to 5 car workings after the engineering works over Chistmas. Have to see how they do today. A quick look at RTT shows the 1330 and 1530 departures at least are 5 car whilst the 1730 is 4 car. It seems to be mostly the MK4 diagrams that are 2 car today aside from the 1030 which is a MK4 as planned.

 

[sd0733]

On the subject of 5 cars on the 197 services from Manchester to South Wales I noticed yesterday quite a few were either 2 or 4 cars. Was it yesterday they were supposed to return to 5 car workings after the engineering works over Chistmas. Have to see how they do today. A quick look at RTT shows the 1330 and 1530 departures at least are 5 car whilst the 1730 is 4 car. It seems to be mostly the MK4 diagrams that are 2 car today aside from the 1030 which is a MK4 as planned

Yes everything was down as 5 cars yesterday and today. While both Mk4 and 197 availability is as poor as it is, it's going to be tough to have the required amount of sets available. Mk4s cycle between excellent and terrible availability and the 197s consistently are about 10% short of required sets. Hopefully things do improve soon as when everything runs as booked it makes a huge difference.

 

[Anonymous10]

Yes everything was down as 5 cars yesterday and today. While both Mk4 and 197 availability is as poor as it is, it's going to be tough to have the required amount of sets available. Mk4s cycle between excellent and terrible availability and the 197s consistently are about 10% short of required sets. Hopefully things do improve soon as when everything runs as booked it makes a huge difference.

If it doesn't improve what would be the next step? Order more sets? Order more intermediate vehicles for the /0's?

 

[Krokodil]

If it doesn't improve what would be the next step? Order more sets? Order more intermediate vehicles for the /0's?

No money for any of that. They'll just reduce the booked formations.

 

[Western 52]

I overheard a conversation on a 197 last week between several tfw staff. They appeared to be saying that the catering cupboards are to be removed from the units. Any truth in this?

 

[Christian Schm]

All trains are supposed to be 5

I would be interested in a quote for that. Because I don’t think that’s the the same as TfW has said to various stakeholders over the years.

 

[Krokodil]

I overheard a conversation on a 197 last week between several tfw staff. They appeared to be saying that the catering cupboards are to be removed from the units. Any truth in this?

I doubt it, from what I've been told the things have somehow been made integral to the unit (no idea why/how). One of the new Cambrian units has got a bi-fold door which doesn‘t obstruct the aisle so they're clearly making an effort to make the things more practical.

 

[Tom125]

I doubt it, from what I've been told the things have somehow been made integral to the unit (no idea why/how). One of the new Cambrian units has got a bi-fold door which doesn‘t obstruct the aisle so they're clearly making an effort to make the things more practical.

Why can’t the catering cupboards actually be used for catering?

 

[Jez]

Yes everything was down as 5 cars yesterday and today. While both Mk4 and 197 availability is as poor as it is, it's going to be tough to have the required amount of sets available. Mk4s cycle between excellent and terrible availability and the 197s consistently are about 10% short of required sets. Hopefully things do improve soon as when everything runs as booked it makes a huge difference.

I popped to Swansea for an hour this afternoon and both my journeys were short formed. The 1325 Fishguard from Neath was even showing as formed of 5 carriages on the screen, saying front carriages were Swansea only and rear carriages for stations beyond Swansea. I had checked RTT so it wasnt surprised to see just a 2 car arrive! I was however quite surprised that my return journey at 1454 was also only 2 car as im sure RTT had said formed of 4 carriages earlier on when I checked. However it appears the extra 2 were being added at Cardiff, so perhaps id got it wrong and it was always 2 car from Swansea. The down journey coped very well as 2 car, quite busy but i got a double seat to myself. I did have to sit next to someone on the return but many people were standing, i even overheard some people dithering about whether to alight and wait for the next train. So not great but not as bad as it could have been. But there was quite a bit of tutting and comments from people as to why only 2 cars were on such a busy service with the general public not realising the issues TFW have.

I did make a point of looking at the 197 stop and divide signs today, i forgot last week when I was there! It would be nice to actually see it happen in the future!

I overheard a conversation on a 197 last week between several tfw staff. They appeared to be saying that the catering cupboards are to be removed from the units. Any truth in this?

The catering area does waste a lot of space but only because its not being used. But i imagine it would be expensive to remove it from 77 units. Also why the delays with the catering provision. I personally hope its not another thing to be dropped like Standard Plus. As long as Swansea-Manchesters are 4 or 5 cars then everything should be fine with capacity.

I would be interested in a quote for that. Because I don’t think that’s the the same as TfW has said to various stakeholders over the years.

It was said when TFW took over from ATW that once the new fleet was in place Swansea-Manchester would be 5 cars every hour. This was before the plan to split the service every 2 hours and have the MK4 cover half the Cardiff-Manchesters. Im sure it was part of the franchise agreement but i could be wrong.

It was supposed to start December 2023 (probably even earlier than that at the start of the franchise but various issues delayed things) but its started to some extent from Dec 2024

Why can’t the catering cupboards actually be used for catering?

I agree. i see no reason why they cant now.